Ghalehnoyi is a mistake

[Martin-Reza]

Wrong doing if you ask me. Judge him by his team performance, not the result, however these two are not against each other by any means. Result is proven to not being a good indicators but performance is.

Rating of performance unfortunately is very subjective. Results of course might not be a totally fair indicator, but the fairest available - especially in the long run.

Rating performances very much bases on attitude and subjective views, and especially among fans is no good indicator to objectively judge a coach.

[Hajagha]

Rating performances very much bases on attitude and subjective views...

It's true, but we talk about "what 'I' will do" than trusting pubic view. I know "I am not going to do based on attitude and subjective views" and I am sure you won't do that either. after all, we don't want to fool ourselves, do we?

You may say, "I trust result more than public view" but it doesn't make sense to say "I trust result more than my own view", specially when you are familiar with the subject.

Cheers,

[Martin-Reza]

You may say, "I trust result more than public view" but it doesn't make sense to say "I trust result more than my own view", specially when you are familiar with the subject.

No, but I trust results more than anyone else's view. And also I know that my view, as much as I try to avoid it, is very much subjective and often not based on the knowledge and information needed to really sufficiently objectively rate performances. Additionally what I call good football can differ a lot from what you call football, so there barely comes anything out of discussions about performances (it's fun, though not effective).

Results are not random. They are very much correlated with performance - the real objective performance. Of course then and when the results don't reflect the performance, but over years they mostly do.

And in the end the results have the biggest influence on how Iranian football is rated. So results must come first. The rest is just for fun among fans.

[Hajagha]

I know that my view, as much as I try to avoid it, is very much subjective and often not based on the knowledge and information needed to really sufficiently objectively rate performances.

Improve your knowledge man, if you want I can throw a course for you starting with Daei and Branko.

Results are not random. They are very much correlated with performance - the real objective performance. Of course then and when the results don't reflect the performance, but over years they mostly do.
And in the end the results have the biggest influence on how Iranian football is rated. So results must come first. The rest is just for fun among fans.

Depends on how many results you bring on for any meaningful conclusion (statistical conclusion). I haven't seen yet any coach in any national level given a chance for a good number of matches that represent him by the result rather than performance. In club level it may happen as a team play over 40 times per year and the coach can be under microscope 24/7, 12 months of the year, still most clubmanagers are going after performance than result to evaluate a coach.

At the end of the day, you may go your way, I go mine. That makes us different.

[smanhoobi]

Numbers rarely lie. Everything about this world is decided by statistics and results. Cause a good result stems from a good performance. Evenif that good performance is not considered sufficient.

We, Iranians, love neologisms. We adore miracles. It gives us pleasure when we are out of ordinary. Success in our mentality is equal to performances out of ordinary. A success within ordinary measures and standards has no meaning for us. We always HAVE to be extraordinary.

Decent football associations consider many factors in their decisions. But, what ultimately counts is the results obtained. Destinies are decided based on that. History records the results and not a performance.

Based on this context, I agree with Martin. The only place I differ with him is his support for Ghale Noi. That support , in my book, is sacrificing facts and statistics for probabilities, rarities and "extra-ordinary" respectfulness.

The guy has nothing to offer at this level. TeamMelli needed a coach with basic qualifications. The 3 games ahead of us would have been a stage for that coach to get to know the team and bulid it from scratch. Just like Korea is doing. Korea does that, because they are absolutely positive that with a squad of 23 players under the age of 25, they can still qualify. They are absolutely positive that they can do it with whatever coach they may have.

Why is it that TeamMelli does not have that confidence? Isnt it because we KNOW that we dont have enough quality players to do the job for us? If so, then why did we ever expect better days for us in world cup 2006?

No azizan. We either are confident and sufficient football team to qualify for ac 2007 and hence, just like Korea Republic, we should not have worried about spending some time to bring a "qualified" coach. Or, we are neither a confident or a sufficient football team to qualify for ac 2007 and hence an unqualified person like Ghale Noi is never the answer for our shortcommings and we should stay content with our relative achievement in WC 2006.

Ghale Noi and Afshin Peyrovani is really what our nation deserves. No offense to them. They can be good coaches in the future. But for that, they needed to work the rear end a bit more , rather than relying on Emam Zaman, per se. But, when we gave them the helm of the highest football can get in a footballing nation, we destroyed everything about professionality. We gave the green light to tens of other coaches that their qualification, education, experience in international football, means nothing. Hence we offered all of them a chance to create "chaos" and get in. Cause to us, what matters is how "smart" they are to create a place in our football. And NOT how "qualified" they might be.

Sad. So sad.

[Doctor DOOM]

then, is it safe to assume when GN beats syria, we can start hailing him as one of great coaches in TM, since he got the required "numbers" and "result" ?






























.... irrespective of the strenght of the opponent ?

[Martin-Reza]

then, is it safe to assume when GN beats syria, we can start hailing him as one of great coaches in TM, since he got the required "numbers" and "result" ?
.... irrespective of the strenght of the opponent ?

You can't get more than a win, regardless of the opponent. But as said, the results in the long run are a good measurement, one result, even a loss against Syria, can't be taken as basis to judge the coach.

[Hajagha]

Numbers rarely lie. Everything about this world is decided by statistics and results.

Wrong Soheil joon with all due respect, this coming from some one make daily bread from numbers and statistic. There are so many assumption involved. Basicly, statistic is there to answer you if the result is accidental and random or there is another force involve as well. So, the number of incident is so important.

Cheers

[Ali Chicago]

Please stop Vatani coach bashing (give the guy a chance)

I followed this thread and at this point in time, I think we should GN a chance. As a matter of fact EbrahimZadeh that is his assistant was the man behind the successes of ZobeAhan for the past couple of years. I like to give him and rest of the so called (no good Vatani's yes even Nasar Ebrahimi and Komasi) a chance. Hadi mentioned keepers coaches is unknow!!! He is Karim Boostani, he was one of the best Iranian keepers. At times Hejazi was bencehd because he was number one.

One common theme I see here is we really underestimate people in Iran. We think because they are in Iran they don't have the experience that we had and are somewhat less able. This is wrong. People in Iran (big majority) are very cosmopolitan, curious, etc.

People here keep saying, Iranian coaches don't have license. It is not true. AFC has so many coaching classes in Iran and we have hunders of Asian Level A coaches in Iran. GhalehNoei got his first training in Bayern Leverkusen during the FattollahZadeh in Germany. Then he came and brough Bargh to the First level league. So his coaching experience isn't just with Esteghlal. Before that he coached Esteghlal Ahwaz and he even was an assistant to Roland Koch.

Actually, i like this approach of seveal assistants. Maybe it is good to have someone like Nasser Ebrahimi that is an elder and players will respect him that way along with Afsheen Peyroovani who will be the next generation of Iranian coahces.
I am so sorry to see this sense of not beleiving in ourselves (Iranins) so vibarant in some of the comments in this thread. I am truly sorry to see this so much especially in Sohail's posts. We Iranians have a lot of problems, but so are other people. The problem is that with forigners we don't generalize the problem to their nationality, with Iranian any problem each of us have we just extrapolate it to the whole nation.

When we criticize Branko, I never say all Croats are such and such, but instead of criticizing GN for a specific behavior we say Iranian coachs such and such.

This is what racisem has done to us, anything Iranian is bad and the Farangi one is good. I am not saying Iranians are perfect here.

People write off Komasi because Jalal Gheraghpoor said this and that. I respect Gheraghpoor but Komasi is the guy who trained Perspolic under Parvin and while Perspolice wasn't good past couple of years, they were always good in conditioning (yes those hills do magic). Perspolice didnt' play pretty in the past two league (sorry I am a Blue fan, so I can be biased here), but they never were weak in conditioning. So let the god damn guy do his job, if Iran's team chocked after 60th minute (like in world cup deja vous) then criticize him.

Based on my limited coaching experience, I totally agree with Hajaagha's earlier comment that soccer isn't just a science. It is not a natural sceince like physics, chemistry or computer sceince. It is a combination of sceince and human skills (for lack of better world I call it a social science). In other words there is a lot of human effect (that can't be measured) in it.
Therefore, someone who is intuitive, speak the same language as the player, grew and breed in the same culture can potentially be much more effective rather than a second class "vich".

Let's face it, we won't have Scolari or likes of him ever in Iran. Between, Vatani's and second class "viches" I choose vatanis.

I beleive that at the National coach's job is more like preparing the players emotionally and inject the sense of "Can do", "patriotisem" and positive attitude. It is not national job's coach to teach how to pass, defensive heading, stuff like that.

Just for the records that "can do" attitude was totally absent in Ivankovitch. He kept saying Mexico is number 4 portuagl is number 6 or whatever and made them such an insurmontable team to beat that our players probably thought they won't have a chance.

I found it very strange that Hadi and Sohail and other that were always reminding us to be patient during Branko's rein and they also were "as Sohail put it in his posting earlier "result oriented" and based on "statistics" "dont' want to wait for two to three games before bashing GN.

[Hajagha]

I followed this thread and at this point in time, I think we should GN a chance. As a matter of fact EbrahimZadeh that is his assistant was the man behind the successes of ZobeAhan for the past couple of years. I like to give him and rest of the so called (no good Vatani's yes even Nasar Ebrahimi and Komasi) a chance. Hadi mentioned keepers coaches is unknow!!! He is Karim Boostani, he was one of the best Iranian keepers. At times Hejazi was bencehd because he was number one.
One common theme I see here is we really underestimate people in Iran. We think because they are in Iran they don't have the experience that we had and are somewhat less able. This is wrong. People in Iran (big majority) are very cosmopolitan, curious, etc.
People here keep saying, Iranian coaches don't have license. It is not true. AFC has so many coaching classes in Iran and we have hunders of Asian Level A coaches in Iran. GhalehNoei got his first training in Bayern Leverkusen during the FattollahZadeh in Germany. Then he came and brough Bargh to the First level league. So his coaching experience isn't just with Esteghlal. Before that he coached Esteghlal Ahwaz and he even was an assistant to Roland Koch.
Actually, i like this approach of seveal assistants. Maybe it is good to have someone like Nasser Ebrahimi that is an elder and players will respect him that way along with Afsheen Peyroovani who will be the next generation of Iranian coahces.
I am so sorry to see this sense of not beleiving in ourselves (Iranins) so vibarant in some of the comments in this thread. I am truly sorry to see this so much especially in Sohail's posts. We Iranians have a lot of problems, but so are other people. The problem is that with forigners we don't generalize the problem to their nationality, with Iranian any problem each of us have we just extrapolate it to the whole nation.
When we criticize Branko, I never say all Croats are such and such, but instead of criticizing GN for a specific behavior we say Iranian coachs such and such.
This is what racisem has done to us, anything Iranian is bad and the Farangi one is good. I am not saying Iranians are perfect here.
People write off Komasi because Jalal Gheraghpoor said this and that. I respect Gheraghpoor but Komasi is the guy who trained Perspolic under Parvin and while Perspolice wasn't good past couple of years, they were always good in conditioning (yes those hills do magic). Perspolice didnt' play pretty in the past two league (sorry I am a Blue fan, so I can be biased here), but they never were weak in conditioning. So let the god damn guy do his job, if Iran's team chocked after 60th minute (like in world cup deja vous) then criticize him.
Based on my limited coaching experience, I totally agree with Hajaagha's earlier comment that soccer isn't just a science. It is not a natural sceince like physics, chemistry or computer sceince. It is a combination of sceince and human skills (for lack of better world I call it a social science). In other words there is a lot of human effect (that can't be measured) in it.
Therefore, someone who is intuitive, speak the same language as the player, grew and breed in the same culture can potentially be much more effective rather than a second class "vich".
Let's face it, we won't have Scolari or likes of him ever in Iran. Between, Vatani's and second class "viches" I choose vatanis.
I beleive that at the National coach's job is more like preparing the players emotionally and inject the sense of "Can do", "patriotisem" and positive attitude. It is not national job's coach to teach how to pass, defensive heading, stuff like that.
Just for the records that "can do" attitude was totally absent in Ivankovitch. He kept saying Mexico is number 4 portuagl is number 6 or whatever and made them such an insurmontable team to beat that our players probably thought they won't have a chance.
I found it very strange that Hadi and Sohail and other that were always reminding us to be patient during Branko's rein and they also were "as Sohail put it in his posting earlier "result oriented" and based on "statistics" "dont' want to wait for two to three games before bashing GN.

Second here. Except the part you mentioned Branko said "Portugal is number 6", he actually said they are number 2 with the absent of chmpion they became number 1.

Adding one more point you didn't mention, giving a new face a chance now, "4 years before another major tournoment", is the best timinig.

Cheers,

[zzgloo]

Iranians are not any lower than other nationalities.....in fact, one on one, Iranians are smarter individuals.......how ever......
There is another aspect to coaching a football team, and an judging a coach by just being Iranian...........and that is management !!!
If there is one single thing that we as a culture lack....is how to manage !!
In fact, culturaly, we stink in management !!!....not just bad..we stink....
In high level competitions, small things are more important than big things...
and if there is a reason to bash iranian coaches in general...it would not be necessarily,lack of knowledge of 'know how'.....but it will be the management.
I do not know, how much my fellow members , value management......,but In my opinion, is THE most important ingredience for success.....specialy when competition is involved.............And that, we do not have !

[smanhoobi]

Haji jaan:

Your statistics is all fine. I have nothing against your explanations and I know it to be true.

However, there is one statistic I would stick to. When one makes choclate bars and it "sells" good, it means there is something good about that bar of choclate. It can be its taste, the way it was packaged, the way it was promoted or..... Bottomline is, it sells good.

One should not go and get the help of science to define football. In this world, football is based upon success. As long as one is successful, one has a job in football. Once he sucks, he is out.

Depending on what they ve got, football clubs, federations have defined goals. Bayern's definition of success is "championship". Barcelona and real are the same. Bochum's however, is staying in the race and occupying a respectable position. Bochum, never sacks a coach simply because they are not champions.

So, the results is simply determinant of a performance. But its evaluation is based on pre-defined goals and success in reaching them.

Ali jaan:

There is a big difference between ones capacity or capability and his/her "ability".

Iranian nation has tremendous capacity and capability. However, as zzglo jaan mentioned, one needs to manage this capability and capacity (being able to use what is already created by others) to reach ability (being able to create yourself).

Yes. We go to olympiads of maths and physics and ...... and we win them. But what makes us have the knowledge to do that is how westerners manage to create them, make and write its text books. Then we gather these knowledge created by them in our schools and we use our capabilities to win competitions.

No, iranians are not inferior in all aspects of life. However, we are some steps behind some other nations in certain aspects of life. Management is one of them. Football is another one.

Football is adopted by our nation from other nations. Yes, we might be capable of doing a good job with them. But first, we have to bring it in from other parts of the world a little advanced in football, then we gotta learn it from them in a proper way (from management to how to even kick a ball) and then we can start winning competitions. Once we reach that level, we are still capable to be "able" to create new concepts in football for our own.

I am the number one fan of independance for our nation. If there is one positive outcome of the revolution in 1357, is a very steady increase in independance in technological terms. Still and even that has all been copies of the west. But that by itself is a step toward gaining ability to create.

And, no. We are not the only nation in this world who is behind. Every nation (culture) in this world is behind in something. But, some nations and cultures are strict headed and shameful of admiting shortcommings like us and wont improve, and some do admit to it and they do anything to bring in the knowledge from elsewhere to improve. Hell, they even offer millions of dollars to bring in people or entities to improve themselves. Its no shame for them. It feels like crime for us.

Our football needs knowledge from advanced countries in football. Our football needs people who have seen much better than what we have in Iran to teach us good things. Good things. From its management, to its coaches and EVEN players, we need them for now.

Nobody can deny that Japan is a far advanced country than Iran in many terms. Well , they may not be flourished with capabilities as we claim we do, but they are still far more advanced. For heaven's sake, they have even nuked at one time in their history. Now look at how organized they are. Look at J-league and see how they have managed to go step by step by attaining old european players to what we consider as second rated coaches. A country that basically rules this world with their technology. They still do that. Because they are NOT ashamed of lacking certain "abilities". But, year by year, they are getting more and more advanced in football to the point that they are slowly using their own rather than outsiders in many of their clubs.

Bottomline Ali jaan. Ghale noyi has absolutely no qualification to be at the position he is right now. Nothing will be gained by him in TeamMelli. To me, thats a fact. Its just an obvious fact. A man who has absolutely no experience at international levels has no place in the national team of a less advanced country like Iran. He may know a few things about 3-5-2, but thats his ceiling of knowledge in football. He will have nothing to offer when he confronts teams with different systems. He wont be able to read and adjust himself. And finally, he blames zamin o zaman for his failure and this vicious cycle continues for us. Knowing the above, I will never support him regardless of what he does against Syria or a young Korea team. But, I ll bet you, he wont be successful against Korea even with 23 players under 25 years of age.

Moreover, he will never have the support of the legionnaires. Ghale Noi can manage an IPL club with its players. But, once these legionnaires listen to him in the locker room, they will dissociate. Cause at least, they know what a professional management looks like. Ghale Noyi is no match to anything.

Mokhlesam
Soheil

[yashar_fasihnia]

Haji jaan:
........
Moreover, he will never have the support of the legionnaires. Ghale Noi can manage an IPL club with its players. But, once these legionnaires listen to him in the locker room, they will dissociate. Cause at least, they know what a professional management looks like. Ghale Noyi is no match to anything.
Mokhlesam
Soheil

This is wat im afraid of, if karimi can openly criticize a modern educated experienced friendly coach, wat are the chances he wont criticize a less educated, less experienced, less successful, a strict yet lajbaz coach who btw is also from esteghlal and this might add fuel to the lajbaazi between any of the 2 parties if god forbids something goes wrong!

ghlanoie should have never been appointed TM coach for 2 simple yet important reasons (important for Iran!) :

1)ghalenoi should have stayed with esteghlal. he had built around him a team of young but talented and future prospect stars, who were well disciplined under him and understood him. they knew wat to expect from him and wat their duties were under him. Same from ghalenoi's side. This was a great chance for esteghlal and iran to achieve something in ACL.

2)Majid jalali in my opinion was the best option for TM because he is more advanced and knowledgeable than ghalenoi. he has had success with different teams like saba battery and pas, and this shows his flexibility in coaching in different teams,with different players and under different circumstances and managements.

But unfortunately, aghaye mostafavi ba ye tir, do neshun ro zad, BADAM ZAD
but I, both as an esteghlal and a TM fan, cant do anything but hope for not one but 2 miracles to happen! Every cloud has a silver lining and thats wat i will be looking for...!!!

[Hajagha]

Haji jaan: Bayern's definition of success is "championship". Barcelona and real are the same. Bochum's however, is staying in the race and occupying a respectable position. Bochum, never sacks a coach simply because they are not champions.
So, the results is simply determinant of a performance. But its evaluation is based on pre-defined goals and success in reaching them.
Soheil

ghorbon dahanet aziz joon,

Now define please a success for an Iranian national team for me. Are we Bayern in Asia or Bochom? let me help you:

1, Achieving 3rd in Asia while showing the poorest decipline and close to be elimianted in the first round.
2, Reaching world cup within 4.5 teams while we escaped two times in 85+ minutes to be eliminated in elementary round.
3, Being the weakest team according to result and performance in World Cup among Asian team with the best ever Iranian team.

I don't call above achievement, I call that expectation. We didn't do disater though.

Now, what we want to achieve?

1, Develop an Iranian coach.
2, Achieve what we did above.
3, Save millions dollars per year for paying a high class coach (if he comes to Iran which I doubt any way) to do nothing till next world cup.

mmmm, I already passed the achievement a second rate European coach.

Cheers,

[Ali Chicago]

Sohail Jaan

I read tyour posting. 90% of it was the fact that we are behind and we need to learn from forigners, which I totally agree. I was just confused how is that related with the topic in hand.

Gist of your posting to me was
1- We need to learn from others, which in general I agree with it, but I don't think that means in this situation we have to settle for another vich as the head coach.


Two issues:

You seem like a very practical man. Please stay away from generalization and give a yes and no answer to the following:

This is the situation right now when it comes to National team coaching:
Two options:
With the current climate of political situation in Middle East and Iran's( Atomic case in UN and Auguest 31st deadline things probably will get worst) we either can:
Get another second rated Eastern European coach: likes of Branko or get a Vatani coach like GN or Jalali or whoever.

What is your choice? Well I know you prefer likes of Branko and justify that under getting the knowledge and know how. I beleive likes of Branko don't bring what ZZ called "managment" or "knowledge" to Iranian football. They are just there to make money and bail out. At least that is what Branko did. If Branko or other viches were like Henry Michelle, or even Troussier, I could totally agree with your argument that we need them to learn from but from likes of Branko we dont' learn much.

To me even if GN or Jalali or whoever even totally screws up at least he has learned something and that will be part of the IP (intellectual property) of Iranian soccer.


As for ZZ jaan's comment, managment is the role of the club or Federation boss and not the coach. Coach is just a piece of the puzzle. As a matter of fact it is the club or federation board who based on their long or short term goal brigns the coach that fits within the system. That is why Abramovich brings Morinho and not Ferguson or scolari or whoever. Point is coach is not there for managment and strategic planning.
So if ZZ or you were saying bring consultants to teach us how to run clubs or federation I buy your argument for coaching different set of skills needed.

As a matter of fact If I am the head of the IFF, first thing I will do is to send club managers and boards to get training on how to run the club. If that get fixed, 50% of problems are fixed automatically.

To be honest I think coaching of National team isn't as big of a deal comapred to other issues. Level of professioanl league, general interest of the nation in soccer, infrastructure are much much more important. I would liek to bring to your attention the fact that Trouseir came to Persian gulf countries, but he never was successful the way he was in Japan.

As for the secret of Iran's soccer I attribute it to the sheer number of people who play the game in Iran and tremendous amount of interest that Iranians have for soccer.
I think the fact that Soccer in Iran will progress is the tremendous number of boys or even girls that play the game in Iran. This is what Japan Korea or USA don't have. I coached youth soccer in US. kids were coming and for 1.5 hour 3-4 times a week and getting training and scrimmage and one or max two games per week, and that is it. Very regimented and it has advantages, but it has one major major drawback. Iranian kids learn to improvise, where Japanees or korean or American kid doesn't learn that way. That is what seperates Iranian or for that matter most south American playersThe same is true for Brazil. I don't think we Iranians have a special soccer gene!!! It is just so many boys chasing that toope plastici (at least in my time) that even if you put the most inefficient system in place (like the current and past IFF) Iran still will do half decent in Asia.