How to incorporate Kia and Kaabi in a threeback system?

[Doctor DOOM]

zz jan,

branko can do whatever he freaking likes, but that does NOT automatically mean nosrati on the left is better than nosrati in center and other more suited for the left , left out !
he wants to take nosrati to that one-horse league.
well, at least nosrati will be guaranteed championships since there's only ONE team in that whole league.
good for him.


on offense vs defense:
my point was when you said "ALWAYS".
in ur last post u were referring to the present time, which we all know IRAN is going throuhg a drought of good strikers.
but that doesnt make it a traditional weak point .... and certainly doesnt make defense a traditional strength.

I think others can express their opinion on the traditional strength of TM, too.
======================

faraz jan, "names" dont play football.
players do.

KIA is kia because of his exploits on the RIGHT side.
I doubt he'd be as effective on the left, and certainly not as much as a player who is USED TO ( specialized ) the left side.

same mistake of playing "names" was commited by branko without having enough idea of the capabilities of the players. ( no wonder I see many branko fans still arrange players the same way .... inspite of being shown the results of this ... !! )

yes, we do see some coaches switch players to different roles.
but how many of these experiments result in improvements?
not many.
kia playing in defense instead of originally a striker ( at rah ahan ) and then winger ( under MK ) is one of the rare experiments that did result positively.
but remember, it is still on the same side.
he may do ok and acceptable on the left. no doubt.
but that'll deny the right of a superb winger, and give the left an ordinary winger !
if we want ordinary, we already HAVE ordinary, in many players who may even outdo it and do well. Niki, madanchi, mani'ee, .... .
same thing can be applied to nosrati on the left issue.

[Ali Chicago]

Adding my two cents, I dont' think Kaabi should play in Forward. He is fast and can beat the offside trap, but he definitly wont' be a complementary player to Hashemian. He is not a forward and hasn't been forward for 98% of his soccer career. A forward among other things has to have at least:
1. Ability to protect the ball under pressure until the second wave of attack comes ( Kaabi due to his size wont' be able to do that).
2. Some arial game (non existant in Kaabi's case)
3. Certain height and size to withstand mulling by big defenders (Kaabi doesn't have that).
4. Ability to turn with the ball (Kaabi doesn't have that).
5. Speed for the wingers (kaabi is great in this one).
6. Ability to cross on with both feet and on the run (kaabi at best is average and I think he is righty).
Kaabi is best used a outside midfielder with his work ethic and ferocity to go back and forth and participate in both offense and defense.
If I was GN, I would have let Kia play 50-60 minutes and then sub him with Kaabi. Kia has lost a few steps comapared to his golden days (WC 98 and early Hamburg days and is not a 90 minute high impact player he used to be).
As a pair for Hashemian we can use Karimi. Another possibility is paring him with Khatibi. I know he is not a favorite with most of you guys, but still he is a true forward, in old days in Iran they called these type of the forward who has a nose for goal scoring wrongly "moordeh khoor". I know people gonna give me a long list of potential goals Khatibi missed (namely one in WC), but that is a part of life. A forward if can convert 30% 3 out of 1 opportunity is considered efficient in soccer coaching classes (at least). Remember we are talking Asian level football and not Didier Droogba here.
One thing I really like about GN is the fact that he started to sub big names (Kia was subbed in Jordan game in Tehran). I hope he has the guts to continue that. This will send a message to every one on the team, that they are not guarenteed a spot as a starter and also no 90 minutes guarenteed playing time. By doing this, players in the field realize, they can get the hook if they don't give 100%. I think GN should use Enayati as a sub for Hashemian. So forward starters are either Hashemian Karimi, or Hashemian Khatibi and Enayati as a sub for Hashemian, if he is not having a good day.

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan, I think the kind of striker you are talking about ( holding striker ) is delivered by VH.
Daei used to do that.
just as Emil Heskey was very good at it.
yes, I agree. any team ought to have at least one tall, tough striker who can hold/shield the ball so reinforcement arrives.
If I'm not mistaken, these are the requisites for a "CENTER forward".

but this role is not asked from Kaabi.
this is VH's role, which is aptly capable.

Kaabi's role could be that reinforcement
or the runner who makes dashes behind the defense line for the lobs or through passes ( ala azizi in 1996-99 era ),
or that pacey striker who draws fouls in and around the 18.
I think if these are the duties asked from kaabi, he is definitely able to deliver.





hehe
as for "mauling" ... well I feel sorry for those opponents who may attempt to maul kaabi.
maybe a call from Figo would straighten them out.

[Ali Chicago]

ali jan, I think the kind of striker you are talking about ( holding striker ) is delivered by VH.
Daei used to do that.
just as Emil Heskey was very good at it.
yes, I agree. any team ought to have at least one tall, tough striker who can hold/shield the ball so reinforcement arrives.
If I'm not mistaken, these are the requisites for a "CENTER forward".

but this role is not asked from Kaabi.
this is VH's role, which is aptly capable.

Kaabi's role could be that reinforcement or the runner who makes dashes behind the defense line for the lobs or through passes ( ala azizi in 1996-99 era ), or that pacey striker who draws fouls in and around the 18.
I think if these are the duties asked from kaabi, he is definitely able to deliver.





hehe
as for "mauling" ... well I feel sorry for those opponents who may attempt to maul kaabi.
maybe a call from Figo would straighten them out.

Both forwards need to be able to hold the ball. As for mulling, I meant no disrepect to Kaabi and I am sure he has a heart of lion and is a fighting cat. But there is a reality out there called Physics and a 185 6.0 (which is a typical defender size these days) vs. Kaabi which is probably what like 5.5 150. All the defender needs to do is lean on him. Figo was attacking and kaabi defending, it will totally different if the roles are switched.

DD jaan, I talked to Khoodadad azizi when he was playing for San Jose EarthQueek. He didnt' do well in MLS (Major Soccer League in US). His lack of success was due to many reasons) but one reason was simply he was outsized by typical American MLS defenders.

P.S. I dont' want to start the whole Dai issue can of worms, but during his playing days (last three-four years), Dai wasn't able to make an accurate pass in offesive third (which is very high traffic area). And he definity couldn't bring in a hard 10-20 yard pass in. He simply didnt' have the technique This is in regard to your comment "Dai used to do that".

[khabalood]

If I was GN, I would have let Kia play 50-60 minutes and then sub him with Kaabi. Kia has lost a few steps comapared to his golden days (WC 98 and early Hamburg days and is not a 90 minute high impact player he used to be).

This has got to be the worst possible move for tm. Mahdavikia is the engine of this team. A great deal of our offense flows through him and without him tm are a far more inferior team offensively and even defensively.

It is also important that we remember that many of Mahdavikia's most dominant footballing performances were as a rwf. Notably his infamous game against Juventus in the champions league. We are experiencing a "drought" of capable strikers at the moment, which is why the very capable Mahdavikia should be placed right behind Hashemian as a rwf. Kaebi will control our rw and thus also have the ability to fall back on defense when needed.

[Mansoor]

I always say the biggest mistake many in field of football make is to go too much by the book while football is an "applied science", and is played in the field not in the books. If a player like Kaabi goes in and makes impact as a forward in a team, then he is good for it no matter what the book says! As simple as that. Players of such caliber with their speed which is a phenamenon and very unusual, can change the outcome of a close match with one or two "incident" run through defense (e.g. Iran-US WC98).

Kaabi's stat speaks for itself in Perspolis. Since his addition, Perspolis has become the winning machine while before they even had trouble beating a second division team. Perspolis with double digit distance in 6-7th place has suddenly moved within two points of first place. Too late I suppose but who knows what if Kaabi would have joined Perspolis even 3 games before that. Is he fit to start for TM as a forward? I would not jump to that conclusion yet, but it sure is worth trying. Nothing more, nothing less, just try based on what he has shown recently.

Another big question beside his suitable position is whether he would complement Hashemian or not. I never forget his amazing run in Asian Cup 2004 against Korea and while running so fast through right wing he had a picture perfect cross for Karimi to score. Lucky shot or not, I can't even imagine what Hashemian can do with those runs and crosses in regular basis.

It is upto Ghalenoei to test him there to see. Nothing certain till then.

[Ali Chicago]

This has got to be the worst possible move for tm. Mahdavikia is the engine of this team. A great deal of our offense flows through him and without him tm are a far more inferior team offensively and even defensively.
It is also important that we remember that many of Mahdavikia's most dominant footballing performances were as a rwf. Notably his infamous game against Juventus in the champions league. We are experiencing a "drought" of capable strikers at the moment, which is why the very capable Mahdavikia should be placed right behind Hashemian as a rwf. Kaebi will control our rw and thus also have the ability to fall back on defense when needed.

Mehdy is 30 now and isn't the same Medhy in WC 98 or Early Hamburg days. He can't keep the same pace and tenacity and run up and down the wing the whole 90 minuts.
Time will show.

[Ali Chicago]

I always say the biggest mistake many in field of football make is to go too much by the book while football is an "applied science", and is played in the field not in the books. If a player like Kaabi goes in and makes impact as a forward in a team, then he is good for it no matter what the book says! As simple as that. Players of such caliber with their speed which is a phenamenon and very unusual, can change the outcome of a close match with one or two "incident" run through defense (e.g. Iran-US WC98).
Kaabi's stat speaks for itself in Perspolis. Since his addition, Perspolis has become the winning machine while before they even had trouble beating a second division team. Perspolis with double digit distance in 6-7th place has suddenly moved within two points of first place. Too late I suppose but who knows what if Kaabi would have joined Perspolis even 3 games before that. Is he fit to start for TM as a forward? I would not jump to that conclusion yet, but it sure is worth trying. Nothing more, nothing less, just try based on what he has shown recently.
Another big question beside his suitable position is whether he would complement Hashemian or not. I never forget his amazing run in Asian Cup 2004 against Korea and while running so fast through right wing he had a picture perfect cross for Karimi to score. Lucky shot or not, I can't even imagine what Hashemian can do with those runs and crosses in regular basis.
It is upto Ghalenoei to test him there to see. Nothing certain till then.

I have nothing against he is being tried in that post. I have been wrong before in my life and will be wrong again for sure. However, stuff in the books, got into the books because they had some merits after all.

I think as for his impact on PP, we need more time to see if Kaabi can maintain this pace and impact level. Remember Badamaki at the begining of the season. Everyone haild him as the next Big Player. Great players can maintain a high level consistantly. I totally agree with you on Kaabi's impact on PP, but it is matter of if he is "consistant". For that we need more time.
I think your comments about his impact in PP is right to a high degree, but you have to realize, Kaabi can be great against poor and slow Iranian defenders (for example EsEs slow defense). Against disciplined Korean and Japaneese defenders who were taught by likes of Troussier (who thought the supporting defenders to support the attacking defender and dont' be further than 3-5 meteres behind him), I think you will see, Kaabi can't be as effective.
Again, I rather be wrong and Kaabi has a great touranment and Iran wins the whole thing.

[Dubxl152]

Like other members have stated the 3-5-2 is an out dated formation and will prove to be detrimental to our team. But if we must play a 3-5-2 i say leave kaebi in as the RB in the flat 3 were going to play, he has the speed to close down on attackers and frankly he is the best defender we have (not counting Rezaei who some may argue is better than him), Physically Kabei would be pushed around as a forward, his size is and lack of experience at the ST/FC would be more of a crutch than a benefit. Ive posted this before in my opinion Kaebi has the ability to become a Worldclass RB whereas he may only become a mediocre ST. As crazy as this sounds...... Khatibi is still the best option next to Hash, he has speed and exp at the ST/FW position which makes him a safer pick.

[Mansoor]

I have nothing against he is being tried in that post. I have been wrong before in my life and will be wrong again for sure. However, stuff in the books, got into the books because they had some merits after all.
I think as for his impact on PP, we need more time to see if Kaabi can maintain this pace and impact level. Remember Badamaki at the begining of the season. Everyone haild him as the next Big Player. Great players can maintain a high level consistantly. I totally agree with you on Kaabi's impact on PP, but it is matter of if he is "consistant". For that we need more time.
I think your comments about his impact in PP is right to a high degree, but you have to realize, Kaabi can be great against poor and slow Iranian defenders (for example EsEs slow defense). Against disciplined Korean and Japaneese defenders who were taught by likes of Troussier (who thought the supporting defenders to support the attacking defender and dont' be further than 3-5 meteres behind him), I think you will see, Kaabi can't be as effective.
Again, I rather be wrong and Kaabi has a great touranment and Iran wins the whole thing.

The point about consistency is accurate. So, is the point about playing against slow IPL defense. However, neither one establishes counter argument. The reverse logic is not established. That is if he is yet to prove consistency, does not mean he would be another Badamaki or that he "can" not be good there. It leaves him questionable "and worth trying in friendlies" as I have said throughout all the posts. So is the point about slow defenders. The fact that he is very good against IPL slow defense, does not mean he can't be also good against faster than IPL defense. It is remained to be seen.

As the point about what is in the book, I didn't negate them, I used the term "to go too much by the book" which means exactly that. The key word was "too much". Not that they don't have merit but because football is a practical science and is being played in the field, not in the books. There are great classifications published in many football articles that I have read but most of these classifications are also based on practical experiences. And if we go back to the books of 70s and 80s, we see many of them that have been negated by new methods, "practices", and therefore become ineffective. For instance, when 3-5-2 came to market, the whole world was excited about it. Nowadays, it is considered out of date.

Players like Kaabi with extra-ordinary features can effect "what makes sense".

Cheers.

[Unity]

Excellent question and great re-start thread for F+.
I have also thought about this, and wrote a suggestion in recent editorial in zendegifootball.com. My suggestion would be to put Kaabi next to Hashemian and keep the rest of the team the same.
Also, with your line up you probably meant to say in "3 back" system, not 3-5-2 because that line up looks more like 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1.
Mokhlesim.

I completely agree. I think Kaebi will be a great piece next to Hashemian. Not only he can feed him by his crosses but he is a great asset in the penalty box. He can easily be fouled.

[Ali Chicago]

The point about consistency is accurate. So, is the point about playing against slow IPL defense. However, neither one establishes counter argument. The reverse logic is not established. That is if he is yet to prove consistency, does not mean he would be another Badamaki or that he "can" not be good there. It leaves him questionable "and worth trying in friendlies" as I have said throughout all the posts. So is the point about slow defenders. The fact that he is very good against IPL slow defense, does not mean he can't be also good against faster than IPL defense. It is remained to be seen.
As the point about what is in the book, I didn't negate them, I used the term "to go too much by the book" which means exactly that. The key word was "too much". Not that they don't have merit but because football is a practical science and is being played in the field, not in the books. There are great classifications published in many football articles that I have read but most of these classifications are also based on practical experiences. And if we go back to the books of 70s and 80s, we see many of them that have been negated by new methods, "practices", and therefore become ineffective. For instance, when 3-5-2 came to market, the whole world was excited about it. Nowadays, it is considered out of date.
Players like Kaabi with extra-ordinary features can effect "what makes sense".
Cheers.

I wasn't trying to counter your argument, I was just trying to present a different point of view. The truth (if it even exists) is usually much more complex and each one of us can have different facet of it and none of us can be wrong. So, I have no reason to try to negate your point, just trying to present a few other factors that might needed to be considered.

Decision is with Mr. GN and his neck is on the line. We see how it goes.

Despite all the shortcomings GN has, he is somewhat unconventional (so GN can try something like this (now that the idea is tried by Denizli and Begovitch)) to get further clarification. GN is a risk taker (introuducing both Sadeghi and Ghorbani to EsEs while there were big names like Bakhteeyari Zadeh, HashemiNasab, .... around), pragmatic and amenable person (I am not trying to say he is perfect btw). So, he is open to try things and maybe this option will be tried. Time will show, which prognosis is more accurate.

[Ali Chicago]

Like other members have stated the 3-5-2 is an out dated formation and will prove to be detrimental to our team. But if we must play a 3-5-2 i say leave kaebi in as the RB in the flat 3 were going to play, he has the speed to close down on attackers and frankly he is the best defender we have (not counting Rezaei who some may argue is better than him), Physically Kabei would be pushed around as a forward, his size is and lack of experience at the ST/FC would be more of a crutch than a benefit. Ive posted this before in my opinion Kaebi has the ability to become a Worldclass RB whereas he may only become a mediocre ST. As crazy as this sounds...... Khatibi is still the best option next to Hash, he has speed and exp at the ST/FW position which makes him a safer pick.

Dada,
Iran doesn't really play 3-5-2 despite what is being claimed in the papers. It is a pseudo 3-5-2 and GN even tried 4-4-2 in the games he played.
As for your comment about 3-5-2 being outdated (based on my granted limited hands on coaching experience), there is no outdated system. A system is like a template and if you have a the right players for that template, then that system is good for you. For example in flat 4 you need really smart, well coordinated, and fast defenders. If you have those kind of players, you can play flat four. If you don't forget flat 4 and you better play with the traditional sweeper. Do you see my point? It is true that as a national team, a national coach has a wider pool to choose the players that fit the system he wants to play, but still, availability of players dictates the system, if you ask me.

Remember on hay days of Kia and having a ready to go Shahroodi and later Minavand, Iran was doing pretty good with 3-5-2. After Minavand decline, Nikbakht for a while covered that post but after Nikbakht demise and a lower level Kia, 3-5-2 isn't the best method for Iran maybe.

To summarize, choose the system based on the players you have, not the vice versa. There is another school of thought that thinks one need to choose specific players for a certain system (Argentine coach did that in last WC adn didnt' invite certain players for that reason), but I disagree with it (and no it doesn't mean, I think I know better that former Argentine Coach) and beleive one needs to pick a system based on the players he has. Even one of the guys in the forum had something like this in his signature I think for a while.

[khabalood]

Mehdy is 30 now and isn't the same Medhy in WC 98 or Early Hamburg days. He can't keep the same pace and tenacity and run up and down the wing the whole 90 minuts.
Time will show.

Ali jaan, I do not agree with you completely. Granted a career of injuries does take its toll, but by asian standards Mahdavikia is still a head and shoulders above any other rw on the continent. However, please note that I advocated Mahdavikia as rwf, and Kaebi as a rw. So I agree that Kaebi should be left to bear the most of the responsibilities of run while, Mahdavikia is playing more of a finishing role higher up the field. Look at my diagram earlier in this thread for clarification.

[zzgloo]

Here are my two cents....
1- A team that is slow, would be better-off, useing 4-4-2
2-kabei's experince was too valueble to be used on right defense,in the OMID team...............Not so for TM.
3-Mahdavikia, still is irreplaceble for " our " TM , although,this does not mean,he should be given additional duties.
4-Some-how, our defense,and our midfield,require less attention than our offense at this moment.
5-we should not give-up on efforts to bring Dejagah, It is the TM's interest,and there is no shame to ask one more time with better incentives,as he plays in a position which is our, " missing link ",Branko knew what to do.