How to incorporate Kia and Kaabi in a threeback system?

[Ali Chicago]

Here are my two cents....
5-we should not give-up on efforts to bring Dejagah, It is the TM's interest,and there is no shame to ask one more time with better incentives,as he plays in a position which is our, " missing link ",Branko knew what to do.

I have nothing against Dejageh. I watched two of his games on GolTV in US. To be honest, he is an ok player but not a superstar that we need to bend over for. If he is smart and knows how to use the public relation (for his own sake even), he can use the opportunity of playing for TM to promote himself even more. So IMHO, we shouldn't bend backward to beg any player (even if it is Karimi or Kia or whoever you think irreplacable) to play for TM. We are talking about setting precedence here. Even if he was a superstar but no urge to play for TM he shouldn't be approached. If he has a gripe about certain things we can listen to him, but it has to be clear from get go, that he feels honored to put national team Jersey on.
Older guys like me remember days when we thought Parvin, Jabbari, Ghleech, Rowshan, Behtash Farbia, Reza Ahadi, Mehrab Shahrookhi, Hamid Derakhshan, Hami Alidoosti, Asghar Sharafi were irreplacable. In reality they were. These guys in those days and a lot of guys like Ali Dai (despite my criticisem in other aspect toward him), wear TM shirt with Honor. If Dejagheh doesn't feel that urge and isn't crazy to wear that jersy, he shouldn't be approached.

[zzgloo]

I have nothing against Dejageh. I watched two of his games on GolTV in US. To be honest, he is an ok player but not a superstar that we need to bend over for. If he is smart and knows how to use the public relation (for his own sake even), he can use the opportunity of playing for TM to promote himself even more. So IMHO, we shouldn't bend backward to beg any player (even if it is Karimi or Kia or whoever you think irreplacable) to play for TM. We are talking about setting precedence here. Even if he was a superstar but no urge to play for TM he shouldn't be approached. If he has a gripe about certain things we can listen to him, but it has to be clear from get go, that he feels honored to put national team Jersey on.
Older guys like me remember days when we thought Parvin, Jabbari, Ghleech, Rowshan, Behtash Farbia, Reza Ahadi, Mehrab Shahrookhi, Hamid Derakhshan, Hami Alidoosti, Asghar Sharafi were irreplacable. In reality they were. These guys in those days and a lot of guys like Ali Dai (despite my criticisem in other aspect toward him), wear TM shirt with Honor. If Dejagheh doesn't feel that urge and isn't crazy to wear that jersy, he shouldn't be approached.

Dear Ali chicago...
I understand your point very well.....but do we realy know the circumstances?
Do you remember ,how long it took,till we recieved " YES " from Zandi ?
It is a difficult dicision, for a person who has lived all his life in Europe,to suddenly, go with TM to mandetory ' Namaz Jomeh '
It may not be his arrogance which is the problem. it may be something els, that we ,as people who live out side, may understand.
Would you personaly go to work in Iran,if they offer lots of money ?

[Dubxl152]

Dada,
Iran doesn't really play 3-5-2 despite what is being claimed in the papers. It is a pseudo 3-5-2 and GN even tried 4-4-2 in the games he played.
As for your comment about 3-5-2 being outdated (based on my granted limited hands on coaching experience), there is no outdated system. A system is like a template and if you have a the right players for that template, then that system is good for you. For example in flat 4 you need really smart, well coordinated, and fast defenders. If you have those kind of players, you can play flat four. If you don't forget flat 4 and you better play with the traditional sweeper. Do you see my point? It is true that as a national team, a national coach has a wider pool to choose the players that fit the system he wants to play, but still, availability of players dictates the system, if you ask me.
Remember on hay days of Kia and having a ready to go Shahroodi and later Minavand, Iran was doing pretty good with 3-5-2. After Minavand decline, Nikbakht for a while covered that post but after Nikbakht demise and a lower level Kia, 3-5-2 isn't the best method for Iran maybe.
To summarize, choose the system based on the players you have, not the vice versa. There is another school of thought that thinks one need to choose specific players for a certain system (Argentine coach did that in last WC adn didnt' invite certain players for that reason), but I disagree with it (and no it doesn't mean, I think I know better that former Argentine Coach) and beleive one needs to pick a system based on the players he has. Even one of the guys in the forum had something like this in his signature I think for a while.

Thanks for the info Ali Khan,
My school of thought is this a coach must create his formation and tactis to fit his players, not force his players to conform to his system. with the weapons that we posess i would play 3 back D, 2 DM, 1AMR, 1 AML, 1AMC, 2 ST. Im not sure what you would call that formation? 3-2-2-1-2.
--------GK--------
--D-----D-----D--
----DM---DM----
-AML--------AMR-
------AMC-------
--ST-------ST---

The only reason that i dont like a 3 Back system is that i feel without a CB who posses speed, composure, concetration and intelligence a 3back D becomes suspect. thats why i have two DM (Ando, Javad) one playing as a free mid the other as a fixed DM, i would love to hear your opinion on the formation i presented and the pros/cons of a flat 3 vs a flat 4. also I think branko's 4-1-2-1-2 was very effective and could be deadly if ando can shore up LM.

[BehzadB]

As for your comment about 3-5-2 being outdated (based on my granted limited hands on coaching experience), there is no outdated system. A system is like a template and if you have a the right players for that template, then that system is good for you.

I am not a coach but I think all these formations are overrated. bottom line is how the team plays in transition. Knowing what to do in any given situation. But of course it is imperative that you have the right group guys for what you want to do, that goes without saying. BUT, bottom line is the fluidity of the game and the understanding of what needs to be done by the players themselves that make a system work or not.

In theory (and in a practical sense) 3.5.2 is more prone to be exposed by speedy oppositions, but if the opposition isn't really speedy, hell yes. do the 3.5.2. or even the 2. 5. 3 if you can or if you have to.

Formats change all thorough out a game depending on how the game goes or how desperate the team gets. Also a lot of times it is the opposition that dictates our formation.

We are just not good enough (even in Asia) to dictate our formation to the opposition. and that's why I don't think that the so called "formation" is really that important.

However, personally, considering our football team, I really like the 4.2.3.1 system that branko installed. The question is (has been) the LINE UP.

After watching Saipa again, I think (I might be wrong, but sue me if I am ) this kid, Javad Ashtianee from Saipa (how old is he anyways?), might be a special player for the left side midfield in a 4.2.3.1 or the classic 4.4.2 formations. I been impressed by him in the past, but against SS he showed great promise. If selected, it means kaabi goes to the bench!!

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan, I understand that smaller players get over-powered by big defenders.

That's why these small forwards play slightly deeper to the big center forwards, who in turn take the brunt of this mauling and physical pressure.
just as azizi was placed slightly behind and not on the same line as daei.

Ithink azizi's success during those 3-4 years was becoz he was placed behind the center forward, and was supported and fed by the big, tough daei.
staying a bit deep, the player gets more room and less pressure from defenders .

I believe we can have the same combo with VH-kaabi, or VH-kazemian.

and as mansoor jan said : nothing ventured, nothing gained.
especially when we need solutions to the forward line, I think it's at least worth the try.



now, I dont know where azizi played in MLS. was it as an out-n-out forward or even a center ? or ... .
but his lack of success there ( and germany for that matter ) is more related to his attitude towards training and application, than anything else.


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secondly, I think daei's passing had improved drastically while and after he came back from europe.
He fed all players around him and was great in creating dangerous opportunities.
so I dont know why you are saying contrary to this.

=================

btw, 3-5-2 is NOT outdated.

first of all what do we mean by "outdated" ?
no such formations can be outdated, as they serve a purpose for a certain strategy or mentality.
I think germany played with such formation for quite some time after many teams reverted to 4-4-2.
last year's england did it too.
and I'm sure many teams , even now, employ this formation.
so lets not use words like "outdated".

what we shd press upon is if it SUITS our style of football and the kind of players available to us.

[Ali Chicago]

Dear Ali chicago...
I understand your point very well.....but do we realy know the circumstances?
Do you remember ,how long it took,till we recieved " YES " from Zandi ?
It is a difficult dicision, for a person who has lived all his life in Europe,to suddenly, go with TM to mandetory ' Namaz Jomeh '
It may not be his arrogance which is the problem. it may be something els, that we ,as people who live out side, may understand.
Would you personaly go to work in Iran,if they offer lots of money ?

Working in Iran is different with playing for TM in my opinion. Plus, I am sure Zandi never had to go to Namze Jomeh or a lot of players for that matter. Most players are really not hezbollahi or even a strict moslem for that matter. They drink, do the dokhtar bazi thing and stuff, so it is not like going and working in Reveloutionary guard you know.

Despite what majority thinks that playing for the National team is a sacrifice players like Zandi made, on the contrary, I think playing for a national team is a plus in one's soccer resume. He will be showcased in front of millions of fans and tens of scouts. So even from pure personal benefits for Dejagheh, he should embrace playing for TM. I am involved with youth soccer in USA and you should see what people do to get in front of a scouts. They travel couple of hundreds of miles over the weekend to play in a touranament because they know scouts from certian MLS u23 or youth is there or university coaches are there.

Even in the case of Zandi and even before that in case of Hashemian actually a bad precedence was set. When a player thought, he could impose his will to TM. I love Hashemian and nothing against him or Zandi, but federation screwed up it bad (the way they handled it IMHO).

[Ali Chicago]

.....
After watching Saipa again, I think (I might be wrong, but sue me if I am ) this kid, Javad Ashtianee from Saipa (how old is he anyways?), might be a special player for the left side midfield in a 4.2.3.1 or the classic 4.4.2 formations. I been impressed by him in the past, but against SS he showed great promise. If selected, it means kaabi goes to the bench!!

He is very young probably can play U23 even. I suggest, we wait for a while to see if Ashteeyani is consistant. Great players are consistant whereas good player are flashy in a few games and then they get disappeared. See my earlier post about Badamaki (as an example).

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan, I understand that smaller players get over-powered by big defenders.

That's why these small forwards play slightly deeper to the big center forwards, who in turn take the brunt of this mauling and physical pressure.
just as azizi was placed slightly behind and not on the same line as daei.

Ithink azizi's success during those 3-4 years was becoz he was placed behind the center forward, and was supported and fed by the big, tough daei.
staying a bit deep, the player gets more room and less pressure from defenders .

I believe we can have the same combo with VH-kaabi, or VH-kazemian.

I have nothing against this being tried. My gut feel says it doesn't work, but definitly can be tried.

and as mansoor jan said : nothing ventured, nothing gained.
especially when we need solutions to the forward line, I think it's at least worth the try.

now, I dont know where azizi played in MLS. was it as an out-n-out forward or even a center ? or ... .
but his lack of success there ( and germany for that matter ) is more related to his attitude towards training and application, than anything else.

I didn't claim his disadvantage with the size was the only reason, but was a factor. He played forward in San Jose EarthQuicks in a 4-4-2 method as a supporting forward (who was supposed to make runs and all that)

-------------

secondly, I think daei's passing had improved drastically while and after he came back from europe.
He fed all players around him and was great in creating dangerous opportunities.
so I dont know why you are saying contrary to this.

I guess people have different opinion, but without any disrespect to Mr. Dai, his passing as a forward (since forwards are under constant pressure and must be really good with trapping the ball and passing it on the run, is really really really subpar). But that is my opinion for what it worth. Most of his passes are backward passes to begin with which really doesn't have much worth.

=================

btw, 3-5-2 is NOT outdated.

first of all what do we mean by "outdated" ?
no such formations can be outdated, as they serve a purpose for a certain strategy or mentality.
I think germany played with such formation for quite some time after many teams reverted to 4-4-2.
last year's england did it too.
and I'm sure many teams , even now, employ this formation.
so lets not use words like "outdated".

what we shd press upon is if it SUITS our style of football and the kind of players available to us.

I agree with you and never said 3-5-2 is outdated. As a matter of fact, if a team has good defenders that can spread out in the width and mark the forwards or outside mids, when the opponent has the ball in their field, then opponents wont' be able to use the wings (the so called classical problem with 3-5-2).

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan that 3-5-2 outdated part is directed at those who deem it outdated, not you.
I didnt want to make multiple posts.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

btw, 3-5-2 is NOT outdated.

first of all what do we mean by "outdated" ?
no such formations can be outdated, as they serve a purpose for a certain strategy or mentality.
I think germany played with such formation for quite some time after many teams reverted to 4-4-2.
last year's england did it too.
and I'm sure many teams , even now, employ this formation.
so lets not use words like "outdated".

what we shd press upon is if it SUITS our style of football and the kind of players available to us.

exactly.... that also explains the content of my signature...

[Adesor Vafaseya]

after seeing todays game, the demand for an incorporation of Kaabi and Kia is needed.. be it 3 back system or 4 back...

our strength is on the right wing, we gotta start using it versus the speedy chinese!