PP v.s. ESES Roles in Persian Football

[Dubxl152]

Hi all F+ members, i was going to open this thread in the general forum but i didnt want to see a thread of arguing and name calling, so i thought id open it up here first and see how we do.

The Red jan and i have breifly discussed the issue of PP & Eses, their roles in iranian football, both good & bad... their contributions and their crimes. This conversation came up due to my sig that states "I Dont Give a DAMN about ESES or PP, They can both go to hell for all the BS they infuse into our football and all the partybazi that they bring to the table." (as you can see my POV). But in the midst of our convo via PM, it became apparent that i didnt know much about these clubs pre 1979 and i doubt many of our younger members have any pre 1979 knowledge either. I belive that much of the support for these two clubs lies in their history pre 1979 rather than their post '79, because all ive ever seen from these two clubs is what i state in my sig. PP and SS are so loved that people exchange blows for their club, people lose their minds over ghermezete ya abiete so they question is Why?

This thread is intended to get the history of these two clubs, why fans love em/ hate em and what theit contribution is to Iranian football as a whole. Please gentelmen(and laides) this is the f+ forum and im sure we can debate such a emotional/ heated topic without insulting each other etc. If this works well here with Mansoor khans permission i will open the same thread in the regular forum.

[Ali Chicago]

As far as info on Taj the following link in Wikipedia is very infomative and pretty accurate, excpet it failed to mention that there were a series of satelite clubs like Afsar (in southern Tehran), Dayheem (in Nezam Abad) were part of the big Taj family of clubs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esteghlal_F.C

Taj history is a mixed bag. On one hand it is about abuses of power by Teemsar Khoosravani and on the other hand, a large number of players were brought up in satelite clubs like Afsar and Dayheem (which coincidentally !!!!! ) all three words, Taj, Afsar and Dayheem somehow have a very close meaning to crown in Farsi.

As for why people love PP and EsEs, I guess it is tradition. PP was formed in part due to a reaction to Taj probably. First there was Shahin club by Dr. Ekrami that was later forced to close (partly due to pressures from Khoosravni who was Taj owner). Shahin had a whole series of satelite clubs around it too. Oghab, Peerooz, etc. From what I have heard, Hossein Fekri that passed away a couple of years ago, was a leftist in his younger years (a Tudeh Party supporter actually per 1953 coup). So as a result, any organization that Hossein Fekri was part of (even thought he wasn't politically active after 1953 coup was suspicious in government eyes that Taj was part of. So, maybe this was somehow a cause for rivalry.

Shahin , unjustly forced to close and since they couldn't operate under that name, I think they changed the name to Paykan and eventually Ali Abdeh, created PP and former shahin and Paykan players joined PP. I am not a PP fan, so PP fans are a better source to correct me if I made a mistake here.

I think it is all about traditions. How they became popular? I can't really say. There were really old clubs in Tehran at the times. For example Bank e Melli (who I think was under Rajb Faramarzi mostly), Rah Ahan (these two were really the clubs who develped players). There were other teams as well, like EEzad Ferdoosi (not that active in Football though) or Keeyan, but these other clubs never got popular for whatever reason!!! problably due to lack of financial resources, lack of advertisements!!!!! Who knows.

[The-Red]

good thread

well I guess the short answer to your "why", and your question is; for the same reason fans lose their mind over ManU, Liverpool, Barcelona,,,,

and now the longer answer;
Perspolis and esteghlal are essential to our football because these are the clubs that historically have brought passion to our football, have brought the fans to staduims and still do and hopefully will for years.. what is football without passion? without fans?
Now, this by no means equals to saying that they should be threated better and be favored, as Perspolis and esteghlal will only benefit us when they are equally competing with all the other clubs.

I doubt there is much that one can argue now that they are being favored by the officials/IFF and as matter of a fact I would argue the exact opposite. The partibazi that you are talking about existed at the years before the revolution in favor of ss as they were the loyal family's team (no offence ss fans ) and after the revolution for both teams to a smaller extend when our football league was still amature (even tho arguably it still is amature) but even then was always exaggerated and taken out of context most the time...when you have strong teams in any league/country/tournament, you will always have the rest of the pack wanting to undermine their success and every little decision that goes their way, whether right or not, will be seen as favoritism.

I guess at the end of the day, you always need the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrids to stay strong, in the same time you can not take away anything from Sevila and Deportivos. And I bet if you sit down with Sevila fans today they will tell you that historically Barca and Real have been favored by the Spanish FA and smaller teams have been hurt!

The other issue is that now days most teams have a very good local fan base in their own cities and they have made it harder and harder for Perspolis and esteghlal to be the powers they used to be and on the other side mismanagement of the government has weakened them to a point where you see today they either don't have a manager or they lose money rather than making money.
I tell you what tho Dubxl152 jan, destruction and further diminution of these two will only hurt our football in the long run and nothing good will come out of it.

[Ali Chicago]

good thread
The partibazi that you are talking about existed at the years before the revolution in favor of ss as they were the loyal family's team (no offence ss fans )

He is right (as an EsEs fan I admit this).

and after the revolution for both teams to a smaller extend when our football league was still amature (even tho arguably it still is amature) but even then was always exaggerated and taken out of context most the time...when you have strong teams in any league/country/tournament, you will always have the rest of the pack wanting to undermine their success and every little decision that goes their way, whether right or not, will be seen as favoritism.

I think Islamic Republic of Iran, after the game against Australia and getting to WC98 realized how soccer can be used for political purposes (actually maybe even to apoliticize people even). Hence their active involvement in football. Durign the initial reveloution years, government was quite anti football. If my memory helps me right, first camp of TM after the reveloution was arranged with the help of Ali Parvin in Kazeroon or something and even then Islamic Republic Newspaer called the football "Taghooti". Point is initially IRI was quite anti football. At least until 1984. I left Iran in 1984, so between 1984 to 1998 things might have changed.

I guess at the end of the day, you always need the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrids to stay strong, in the same time you can not take away anything from Sevila and Deportivos. And I bet if you sit down with Sevila fans today they will tell you that historically Barca and Real have been favored by the Spanish FA and smaller teams have been hurt!
The other issue is that now days most teams have a very good local fan base in their own cities and they have made it harder and harder for Perspolis and esteghlal to be the powers they used to be and on the other side mismanagement of the government has weakened them to a point where you see today they either don't have a manager or they lose money rather than making money.
I tell you what tho Dubxl152 jan, destruction and further diminution of these two will only hurt our football in the long run and nothing good will come out of it.

As Armin said above, in all countries there are rivalaries. River Plate and Boca Juniors in Argentina, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchaster in England, Barcelona and Real in Spain, Inter and A. C Milan in Italy, that are by far much more popular than other teams in their own respective teams.
In Iran in recent years for example, there has been more and more of local support for local clubs. For example in Ahwaz and Anzali, most fans support their own local team over PP or EsEs, I heard in "Isfahan" Sepahan as the traditional Isfahani team has its own fan base as well.

Bottom line, having these favorite clubs is just the way football is all over the world I guess. I think this rivalry makes the football much much more interesting.

[The-Red]

اميررضا خادم گفت:

[Dubxl152]

Great information contained in you posts gentlemen, very informative... but the question remains why there is so much undying love for two clubs that have done their share of crooked deeds. I feel that Eses & PP are currently hurting our football more than helping it advance. I look at the IPL and i see teams like SS & PP who are supposed to be the giants of the IPL get outplayed by the likes of Saipa, Sepahan etc, i see them fail to win the IPL and qualify for the ACL... but still they are considered the greatest clubs in Iran, and have the most passionate fans. What am i missing? Where does this loyalty come from? For example (if i may ask) Ali Jan or The Red jan why do you personally support eses or pp? is it because thats who you have supported from day one or is there a deeper connection that i don't see because i left Iran in 1991 at the age of six and had no idea what ghermezete ya abiete meant? Its very confusing from me when i see the government take an active part in the operations & leadership roles in these two clubs (which actually hurts them), what make's these clubs so influential that the IR feels it needs to be actively involved? I know i have presented a handful of questions and that perhaps envisioning Iranian football without IR intervention is a Utopian complex Ive developed.... I want the best for our football, but when i hear PP or ESES is the greatest Iranian club etc.... i think why, how do you figure? What about Foolad, Sepahan, Saipa etc etc sure these are smaller marginal clubs but they have achieved more than PP or ESES in the last few years it seems. And for some reason every bit of negative football news coming out of Iran (i don't know if i should call it news ) seems to involve these two clubs. I want to know what keeps these clubs appealing to people after all the smear campaigns whether true or not.

[Ali Chicago]

Great information contained in you posts gentlemen, very informative... but the question remains why there is so much undying love for two clubs that have done their share of crooked deeds. I feel that Eses & PP are currently hurting our football more than helping it advance. I look at the IPL and i see teams like SS & PP who are supposed to be the giants of the IPL get outplayed by the likes of Saipa, Sepahan etc, i see them fail to win the IPL and qualify for the ACL... but still they are considered the greatest clubs in Iran, and have the most passionate fans. What am i missing? Where does this loyalty come from? For example (if i may ask) Ali Jan or The Red jan why do you personally support eses or pp? is it because thats who you have supported from day one or is there a deeper connection that i don't see because i left Iran in 1991 at the age of six and had no idea what ghermezete ya abiete meant? Its very confusing from me when i see the government take an active part in the operations & leadership roles in these two clubs (which actually hurts them), what make's these clubs so influential that the IR feels it needs to be actively involved? I know i have presented a handful of questions and that perhaps envisioning Iranian football without IR intervention is a Utopian complex Ive developed.... I want the best for our football, but when i hear PP or ESES is the greatest Iranian club etc.... i think why, how do you figure? What about Foolad, Sepahan, Saipa etc etc sure these are smaller marginal clubs but they have achieved more than PP or ESES in the last few years it seems. And for some reason every bit of negative football news coming out of Iran (i don't know if i should call it news ) seems to involve these two clubs. I want to know what keeps these clubs appealing to people after all the smear campaigns whether true or not.

Well, let me put it this way to you since you grew up in US. Why Yankees have so much traditions in Baseballs, even when they play against Padrees or whatever San Diego team's name is, there are hard core Yankee fans, or even Chicago Cubs baseball fans even in San Diego!!! Why? Tradition I guess.
I became Blue supporters because at that time, there were two teams pretty much, Taj and PP. PP was way more fans and at that time, I guess, I was a non-conformist, rebel type. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks even today.

As for your comment about Blue and Red are subpar team, and you compared them with Saipa and Sepahan. I think you over simplify the issue. See all the teams in Iran except EsEs Ahwaz and shamooshak nooshahr are being paid for by government or one of the subsidized industries by the government (Saipa, Sepahan, Zob Ahan, Foolad) Barghe Shiraz is getting its budget from Vezarate Neero, even Farje Speasi shiraz is being provided by Sepah Pasdaran or Basij lately. Malavan by Iranian navy. What happens is that all these other teams at the begining of the year get their budget from the organization that supports them. So they know how much money they got and can pay more or less their cost.
EsEs and PP are being run under Tarbeeyat Badani, Tarbeeyat Badani doesn't do that. Plus EsEs and PP are in bulls eyes of 100 of thousands of fan and need to spend more to remain competetive. Plus no one cares to be on the board of Barghhe Shiraz, but being on the board of EsEs or PP can bring a lot of name recognition. So there is political meddeling to get on EsEs, PP board. You know this guy Hajii Fattollahzadeh was a reporter first, he is one of the most well known guys in Iran today because of EsEs. So comparing EsEs and PP to Sepahan or Saipa is comapring apples and oranges.

Let's look at Foolad. They were the champ two season ago. Then the foolad industrial complex management cut the football budget. So they didnt' have money. Lot of players left to EsEs Ahwaz (mirza poor, Kameli, Badavi comes to mind for now but there are more) Sharifinasab to Saipa, Hamidi to Paas. Look at where foolad is today fighting for playoff.

Read my post earlier about how governement uses football for political influence in Iran. They won't let go of PP or EsEs management specially for political reason.
Hope these shed some lights.

[Dubxl152]

Well, let me put it this way to you since you grew up in US. Why Yankees have so much traditions in Baseballs, even when they play against Padrees or whatever San Diego team's name is, there are hard core Yankee fans, or even Chicago Cubs baseball fans even in San Diego!!! Why? Tradition I guess.
I became Blue supporters because at that time, there were two teams pretty much, Taj and PP. PP was way more fans and at that time, I guess, I was a non-conformist, rebel type. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks even today.
As for your comment about Blue and Red are subpar team, and you compared them with Saipa and Sepahan. I think you over simplify the issue. See all the teams in Iran except EsEs Ahwaz and shamooshak nooshahr are being paid for by government or one of the subsidized industries by the government (Saipa, Sepahan, Zob Ahan, Foolad) Barghe Shiraz is getting its budget from Vezarate Neero, even Farje Speasi shiraz is being provided by Sepah Pasdaran or Basij lately. Malavan by Iranian navy. What happens is that all these other teams at the begining of the year get their budget from the organization that supports them. So they know how much money they got and can pay more or less their cost.
EsEs and PP are being run under Tarbeeyat Badani, Tarbeeyat Badani doesn't do that. Plus EsEs and PP are in bulls eyes of 100 of thousands of fan and need to spend more to remain competetive. Plus no one cares to be on the board of Barghhe Shiraz, but being on the board of EsEs or PP can bring a lot of name recognition. So there is political meddeling to get on EsEs, PP board. You know this guy Hajii Fattollahzadeh was a reporter first, he is one of the most well known guys in Iran today because of EsEs. So comparing EsEs and PP to Sepahan or Saipa is comapring apples and oranges.
Let's look at Foolad. They were the champ two season ago. Then the foolad industrial complex management cut the football budget. So they didnt' have money. Lot of players left to EsEs Ahwaz (mirza poor, Kameli, Badavi comes to mind for now but there are more) Sharifinasab to Saipa, Hamidi to Paas. Look at where foolad is today fighting for playoff.
Read my post earlier about how governement uses football for political influence in Iran. They won't let go of PP or EsEs management specially for political reason.
Hope these shed some lights.

I appriciate all the info that i get dadash. I also know much of what your saying but by asking it and getting a confirmation, i realize that some of my theorys are correct and some unfounded. I will respond later my friend with another laundry list of comments, questions and ideas. this way im becoming more educated about Iranian football & the culture behind the clubs/ sport, i hope this serves the same porpuse for other members as well.

[RaginG Inferno]

Iranian football is strange in the respect that you aren't asked "what team do you support?". Rather, the question is "Perspolisi hasti ya Esteghlali"? It's implied that these two teams are the only two worthy of support! This is obviously counter-productive as it leads to a diminishing support base and, consequently, financial troubles for other clubs.

I think a way to alleviate this problem is to give each large city a team to support, rather than having so many Tehrooni teams. The logistics of such a move, however, I am perhaps unqualified to discuss.

[KasraKhan]

Great thread.

[The-Red]

Dubxl152 jan I guess Ali Chicago did a good job in breaking it down and there's not much I can add that was not said already, but I want to ask you this; you referred to partibazi and negative impact of ss and Perspolis a few times but what are you really referring to? I can tell you that the main issue currently that favors Perspolis and esteghlal, and the only thing that favors them over other teams is that they play against Tehrani teams in Azadi home and away and the reason for that is security related and there is no intention to benefit the red and blue. Currently there is a movement to change that and in a couple of years that problem will be fixed, but other than that, I don’t see a major favoritism going here?
if anything Perspolis and esteghlal are disadvantaged for the attention they get from the huge number of fans they have and the pressure on the player not to mention mishandling their management by the I.R.

[Dubxl152]

The Red jan when i say partibazi and negative impact im referring to is the club mismanagement of fund, pocketing of players salaries and the incompetent individuals in charge (mostly due to IR), I look at the forces that ESES & PP exhort on TM staff to get their players into TM and raise a stink when foolad players who have outpreformed theirs get selected. I refer to the partybazi that occurs when a PP or SS player is suspended, lowered suspensions etc. I know that our whole football system is corrupt, but for some reason SS & PP are the figureheads of the corruption (IR of course the king of kings lol). I understand what you are saying about government intervention in PP & SS being detrimental to the teams and i can see it myself. The Azadi issue should be resolved with all these new stadiums being built (if they ever get finished. PP & SS are funded by the government like almost all the other clubs in the IPL.... but why are they so overfunded compared to the other teams? Perhaps im a conspiracy theorist Red jan or i have a poor grip on whats going on in Iran but when i look at PP & ESES, i dont just see two clubs that many people say "without them Iranian football would be nothing", i see that and i agree with it, but i also see the clubs as a barriar to the advancement of Iranian football, the favoritism will always be there because the fan base is there, and this favoritism be it in the form of additional income, referee love or stadium will always keep the smaller bashgahs in their place with no room for advancement at a disadvantage. from the information in this thread and our conversations i agree that ESES & PP are very important to the very institution of Iranian Club Football, when and if Iranian football is ever allowed to become privatized we will see the advancement of all our clubs and the eradication of gov corruption from our clubs (with the addition of corporate corruption). I belive the even though the gov is currently weakening PP & SS in the past they have been instrumental to their survival, the tide of gov support/ favor sways with the election of IR president.

[perspolees]

I am somewhat baffled at the question at large? Why do people love persepolis? or esteghlal?!
How can you live straight in a crooked system!?
it is somewhat forgive me for being blunt, naive to think of the two clubs as crooks where Iran as a whole country has not been run by any system but crooks for the past 200 years!!

Taj and esteghlal have always represented the right wing and the support of government, granted that this was more evident in shahs term than now, persepolis on the other hand has been the opposition and sort of the people's team.

no sports is anything without fans and marketing dollars that would come to it because of those fans. If Iran's football is to get anywhere it will have to go thru persepolis that is the most beloved team in Asia. Nothing in Iran's football historically has happened without persepolis doing it first, first in takhte jamshid's first term, first in first term of IPL, First team in Iran's history to win back to back league titles and by definitiona dynasty. First in fan base in whole of Asia. If Iran is to have a true professional leap into real pro football and for profit systemp, it has to go thru persepolis, this will not be possible before it is privatized, and that will not be possible so long that IRI is there. Under IRI thieves nothing will flourish except for their real bosses, ie Arab States!

[Nokhodi]

The point is Persepolis and Esteghlal are probably the only two teams in Iran right now that have a large number of fans that could somehow help the team financially if they were privatized.
What I mean by this is, if every team in Iran was privatized today, Persepolis and Esteghlal would be the only ones who could make a large amount of money from ticket sales and sponsorships.
Teams like Rah Ahan, Saipa, Paykan... would be in a very tough position.
But professionalism and free market system in football have different meanings in Iran. Esteghlal Ahvaz is a good example of this. They are privately owned and are not attached to any government organ. Shafeizadeh (their chairman) in the first couple of seasons spent lots of money on 2nd class players. He didn't attempt to even build a local practice field, or start construction on a small stadium. Ahvaz's only decent youth academy still belongs to Foolad.
Professionalism should not only be about giving players large contracts and having Latin numbers on the back of jersies.

Of course even if those problems were fixed, television rights are where the real money is at. For this plan to work in Iran, IRIB should be forced by majlis to pay the Persian Gulf Cup teams each an equal amount of money. Major games should be broadcast nationally, and other ones should be broadcast on their own corresponding provincial or regional channel. This is what most other sports do. Equal amounts of money is fundamental, because if every team was to receive varying amounts, almost all the money would go to Persepolis and Esteghlal.
Personally I don't think we can get away from the fact that Persepolis and Esteghlal are supported by many fans. This sort of rivalry is necessary and exciting for any country's football. What's important though is that Persepolis and Esteghlal some how break free from government control amd lead the way and be used as an example for privatization.

[Ali Chicago]

Taj and esteghlal have always represented the right wing and the support of government, granted that this was more evident in shahs term than now, persepolis on the other hand has been the opposition and sort of the people's team.
!

Taj in the former regime was supported by the government by PP and EsEs right now are both under TB and I don't think EsEs has any favor compared to PP at least.

As for the general question of why pp and EsEs are loved. I said it earlier, it is tradition. In our country football isn't as old as other countries like England and stuff in which each town had a team and as a results local fans supported the local team. In Iran before Jaam Takhte Jamshid, football was played in each local league (for example there was Tehran Championship, Ahwaz, Masjed Soleyman, Abadan etc. championship). Therefore whereever there was a strong football traditions locals were supporting the local teams and EsEs and PP don't have a huge base. For example in Abadan there was Jaam Abadan and I think Shaheen and in Abadan still (even during Takhte Jamsheed league era) Sanat Naft was the favorite team (EsEs and PP didn't have as many fans as sanat naft). Same was in Ahwaz, where Taj Ahwaz was very popular in Ahwaz (although they never made it to Takhte Jamsheed). EsEs Ahwaz is basically Taj Ahwaz. Same was in Tabriz for example , when Teraktor Sazi and to some degree Machine Sazi were the favorites.
But in the cities where football wasn't as strong, locals had no one to kind of get loyal too. So EsEs and PP were able to attract fans.

As for why other Tehrani clubs, like Homa, Banke Melli, Paas, Oghab never became as popular, it is just winning record. Other clubs except Paas at times never able to win. Paas was branded with Shaherbani and shahrebani didn't have any populairty among football fans. Specially the way (Ajans) were treating youngsters in Amjadeeyeh (very rough, the slighest sense of decent was met with buttons and clubs).