Do we have to throw away another Asian Cup to realize that GN isnt the man for the job?
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Leviathan jan.......Originally posted by leviathan
I wished I had started this thread !!!!, in fact after I read that article,I wanted to send a private massage toMansoor, and congratulate him for such concise and comprehensive view....indeed,he put it perfectly......
Although, some of our good members are in a beliefe,that, some issues, ( little practice, jet lag, 3 rd team, etc etc,) was the cause. yet.......they do not see the bigger picture....which is we are going down, and we are going down fast...................
If we take " The ratio of us loseing players to forign teams " ( due to bad internal situation for our player,economicaly,and poleticaly ) as = X
and if we take " The ratio of our league producing new players,and new talents " as = Y
X > Y ...........that means , we always lose players in far higher ratio than we can produce..........
we can , can not keep waiting for championships, all the time and expect miacles...........we can not say, Poletics and football are seperate.......
We can not, put our head in the snow, and ignore our circumstances...
Our football is like our economy, and our government....." lots of, talk, no substance, no management, and no future ".
We are being drained, and we are avoided by all the world. although we are far biger country, yet, we still compete with 700,000 papulation Bahrain !
Denizeli, said : our league is far behind Turkish league, yet, our TM is not weaker than turkish national team........what does that mean ?.....????
what it means, is that, we should not expect any progress from our IFF or our league....yet, we can have good team, if it is managed by some one from out of the system..........there is no " if " , " and " or " but " about it.Comment
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Sounds like you had way too many Miller lites or Corona that day dada.Originally posted by behzadbman.. I still can't figure out what was going on with our formation against Mexico.. No wonder everyone seemed so confused specially on the defensive line...
Or was it just me??
"When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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I agree with a lot of things you said. Despite all the shortcomings that you listed though, I think lot of people who have this "we are going down attitude", forget about one element. Deep rooted traditions of soccer in every neigborhood of Iran. All those gol kochick players and the mere fact that every one played soccer in Iran, puts Iran in a totally different place in footballing world. It is the same factore that makes Brazil or Argentina and other football based countries being always so successful in football arena, while their country is in shamble. Did you forget how bad the Argentina as a country was 4-5 years ago with Banks not giving people saving back to themselves?Originally posted by zzgloo
Argentina as a coutnryhas been on decline (its per capita income was higher than European), but now, it is not. Despite all the political unreat (Peroon, Khunta rule, etc, etc.), football tradition continued. Of course if these political and economic trumoils didnt' exist, football probably would have been better. But point is, due to depth of the football roots inthe country, Argentinien football manged to perform at the high level.
Why you go too far, Iraq's olympic team in 2004. Country in midst of civil war and invasion and Bombs and Iraq did very well in Olympic football.
Point is huge number of footbalist in Iran and the fact that every Iranian is to some degree is knowledageable about football is the plus side in our football. Our fans in Asia and maybe in the world are unique. Where do you find in Asia, a club like PP can bring in 100K to a game where they did nt' have a good season (Sepahan game). Are we utilizing our soccer resources properly (absolutely not)? Can we be better? Of course but we still have a huge advantage in that regard (sheer number of youngsters who play football granted at street level), fan base, general interest in football to any Asian countries or even I dare to say at world level.
I lived in 7 countries so far, no where, I have seen the gol kochick tradition the way it existed in Iran. It is a huge treasure (not fully tapped in Iran).
Ali
P.S. My observation on gol kochik players are based on the time, I lived in Iran(long time ago. If things have changed, feel free to correct me."When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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zz jan, your post is more concerned with the status of our club football and doubts the trend in youth emergence.
and frankly, it belongs to you other thread about not having back ups and ... & is not very relevant to the mexico game.
but as I said in that thread and will skim over it here; do not fret my friend.
we have enough back up talent to fill in the shoes of our legioners.
once you combine the omid team and simoez' team, you'd see we have plenty of potential , all below the age of 24 .
I can name at least 10-11 players.
and that is a very healthy turn over for any country.
so dont worry, bro.
the future is not as glib and you think. trust me.
YET .... what we lack now, is what we've lacked for ages: good foundation for a pro set up which molds such raw talent into INTERNATIONAL level stars. not just Iranian or asian stars.
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Ali jan, your points are well taken...and you discribed them well.........Originally posted by Ali Chicago
But,are we realy like argentina ?
Argentina,has had 100 times more number of football fields, and thousands of places with natural grass fields for poor people !!more over, argentina has indeed higher class of football and higher class of fans !!,they do not have uneducated hezbulahis running the show.
Two things I need to mention here
1- Our fans , are different.....we go to stedium in 100,000 for perspolise and saba-batry, but only 20 thousand for sepahan,and abumoslem !!!
our fans go to see esteghlal playing rah-ahan. but, the game between Paraguay and tugo has 5000 fans , in the little 4 team turnement we had last year..................
Our fan base, is korkori dependent,rather than love of football !!
2-Just like the TV advetizing,of " ZIROX " machines on TV,in which shows works of Da Vinci,at his time, and says, " IF YOU HAVE NO WAY OF PRESENTING YOUR TALENT, YOU HAVE NO TALENT "Comment
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I love you DD jan, but !!Originally posted by Doctor DOOM
Where is this talent you are talking about ??...just ability to kick,and be a little better than the rest of the league in Iran,does not constitute TALENT !
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We have nobody,to kick the ball from short distance in the God-dam Goal !!they all close thier eyes at the last minute !
The mexicans out played us tequnicaly.
Third or fourth rate forign players in Iran, are among thier best players within the club !
Third or fourth rate forign coaches are doing better than our top coaches .
Navidkia, with backing up in Bokhom for short while, is considered A football phenamina,in our best team .sepahan.
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Originally posted by zzgloo
ZZ aziz,
My point was n't Iran is Argentina. I was comparing grass-root soccer in both countries.
As for fans, I think in Iran PP and EsEs are enjoying a special status. As profeesional teams are getting established in Iran, you will see local fans in Kerman, Anzali, Ahwaz will root for their teams.
In Tehran I won't expect more than couple of thousands to go and see Saba vs. Sepahan. Saba battery even given their so called fans, juice and drink and all that, and brings to encourage them to come to the stadium. Give them a couple of years, if Saba Battery is succesful you will see how there will tons of fans cheering for them.
Did you see the papers, on the day Saipa won the champinship more than 20k in their stadium in Karaj. See, if you are a winner, lot of bell weather fans will come. Same day less than 15k in Azadi for EsEs although technically EsEs had a chance to win. Point is give the local clubs time, if the provinces and they will have their own fan base. In Tabriz more than 60k go to watch Teraktoor sazi. In Tehrna, if Saipa continues to perform with Dai factor and his own set of fans, Saipa will have its own fan base I am sure. If Parvin's team (Steel Azin) do well, probably many of PP fans will cheer for that team as well. So, I think in long term fan situation will even out more evenly.
For TM not many people go to the games, it was in part the whole negative atmosphere around TM for the past couple of years (since we didn't make it to the WC 2002). Media and unrealistic expectations and several other elments contributed to that negative environment around TM in the past. And even today, the same negative environment continues.
Branko was partially unjustly under media pressure and he wasn't media savvy enough to neutralzie it (same problem GN suffers from btw)."When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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Even best forwards don't score on each opportunity.Originally posted by zzgloo
They didn't outplay us. I am ready to list and actually I did list the dangerous opportunities Mexican had Vs. us. Overall both team played poor, but Iran wasn't outplayed by Mexico. Our team didn't play well, but neither did Mexico.
Forign players in out country are due to two reasons:
First their so called Dallals or agents bringing this players and they are not best players (even Oleroum in Abo moslem wasn't the best player on that team).
Second point it can be argued the mere fact that forginers come to our country to play football shows there is money in our soccer to be made. Which is a good news. Now I agree we dont' spend the money properly,but there is money, it needs to be distributed and spent wisely.
As for Navidkia, he never was a phonomenon in our soccer. he is a good player. Plus being successful in a club can be due to so many facotrs and without knowing the details one can't jsut make a claim. Factores that can impact success or failure of a player in a club is diverse like:
if there is a better player for that post,
coaches overall strategy (offensive defensive)
player's injury
overall performance of the club (if the whole club isn't doing well, even a single player's performance won't get noticed).
Marketing of player's agent.
Sophestication of the media in home country (iran in this case) to promote the guest player in the host country (Germany). For example of Japaneese players in Germnay there was always a circus of Japanees media to interview them. In that case Bild or Stern or whatever the heck the Germnay's Sport papers will pay more attention to player."When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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LOL.
zz jan, I hope that is a "brotherly love" you have for me.
2- na baba. digeh kheili sakht gerefti, amoo.
I think we all agree guys like zareh, kolahkaj, noori, meydavoodi ... know slightly more than just "kicking the ball" .
dont worry.
and as ali jan said, the best strikers in the world dont have a conversion rate of better than 1 goal in 3 chances.
so why do we expect anything equal or better than this from a bunch of amateurish players from Iran?
and the strikers thing is an example.
as for other players: I have seen many "bezan ziresh" games not only by iranian teams, but by the likes of AC Milan, Bayern, Inter, .... .
do we say their players just close their eyes and .... ?
3- I doubt all those foriegn players at IPL are among the "stars" of our league.
saha and elong are the good ones.
plus armenak and maybe one or two more.
but that's it!
if you wanted to make the very BEST f the best of this league, you'd end up with 3-4 foreigners in a roster of 16-17 players.
4- coaches, I agree.
we dont have good vatani coaches. not that many anyway.
karimi & kazemi are among the better ones.
GN isnt all that bad. except when we relate him to TM's ever-important & vital appointment.
now, we have daei to give these guys a run.
but overall, our vatani coaches are quite a disappointment.
5- navidkia BEFORE his injury WAS a football phenomenon.
you can take that to the bank.
his bochum stint came AFTER the injury.
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ali jan, I doubt ANY team in tehran would bring tons of fans , least of all teams like saba.
( paas could have , but thanks to crappy management , now they ..... !!!!!! )
saipa had so many , where many of them were ss or pp fans , not saipa's. and DAEI and his first coaching stint, were other factors that brought people to the stadium.
these teams struggle daily to bring in fans. and have to rely on those shticks !
ss and pp have the stranglehold on fans in tehran and I dont see fans becoming mature anytime in the future either !
we see tons of support for other teams only in other towns and cities like esfahan ( sepahan ), anzali ( malavan ), abadan ( naft ) , tabriz ( tarakhtoor ), ahvaz ( ss-A ), ... .Comment
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Ali jan ....and ......DD jan,
There is an issue,about the finishing job of strickers..I need to expand,and get your opinion on it.....
( Ali jan, you are wiser and more positive than I am )
( DD jan, you are always sceptical about what I say, although,I know,you kid around too !, last time, I meant to complement you, and this time, I meant a platonic love !only
)
any way........................
There is issue,of last secound finishes.....it seems both of you believe, our players in Iran miss just as many as players of other countries, which I am in total disagreement !!!
you both , have played football.....so, lets expand this in detail.....
1- Control ...............there is defenetly a wide gap, between our players and the Europeans and south americans, when it comes to control, and reception,and touch and pass, and touch and go, and , direct pass,as not waiting,and when a ball comes toward a player, he redirects the ball with one touch toward predetermind place or player.all this , we are not up to par.
2- moche pa............there appear to be, major problem , when it come to last secound uppertunity,close to goal....and conrol of the " Moche pa ", which this conrol,is vital as of the accurecy of the kick,and its placement,..and again our players seem to, lose attention in the heat of the moment,and as DD jan says, " Mizanan zire toop ".
3-Cut...................the understanding of curve balls, and cuts, seem to be hard to our players......To cut !.either inside ,or outside cuts,,,have a meaning,that they just do not get it......to cut , is not neccesarly to make the ball go with curve !!..........the real reason ! is to manipulate the accurecy, and make sure, ball will get where we want it to go.....in another words...when we do not have accurecy of " Moch e pa " placement, we use " Cuts" to make sure, the ball is not going to change direction,after a strong kick !!!!!
4- Time..............here again, is something important, as the understanding of " vital secounds ", as most our players, waist preciouse secounds to adjust, as they are not used to split secound diccisions.and lack of understanding,that other defenders at the same time will get the time to better defend.
5-Vision............another issue,as we see our players not to see far , and can not envision, a tactical set ups, and inside slow passes,with " off side " in mind.
6- Pass accurecy...........another issue, is passes,that not only are not accurate, but also, most time are short....strange,they are not long, but only,short.....Branko,also had said, that since, Iranian players are used to play in bad fields, they do not know what requires for a direct pass.
7- killer instinct.................here, is what all is about, for example, what hashemian did in Korea, is the best example for it, when he single handedly scored a goal..........we have only one hashemian.
God Bless both of you !!Comment
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ZZ jaan,Originally posted by zzglooAli jan ....and ......DD jan,
There is an issue,about the finishing job of strickers..I need to expand,and get your opinion on it.....
( Ali jan, you are wiser and more positive than I am )
( DD jan, you are always sceptical about what I say, although,I know,you kid around too !, last time, I meant to complement you, and this time, I meant a platonic love !only )
any way........................
There is issue,of last secound finishes.....it seems both of you believe, our players in Iran miss just as many as players of other countries, which I am in total disagreement !!!
you both , have played football.....so, lets expand this in detail.....
1- Control ...............there is defenetly a wide gap, between our players and the Europeans and south americans, when it comes to control, and reception,and touch and pass, and touch and go, and , direct pass,as not waiting,and when a ball comes toward a player, he redirects the ball with one touch toward predetermind place or player.all this , we are not up to par.
2- moche pa............there appear to be, major problem , when it come to last secound uppertunity,close to goal....and conrol of the " Moche pa ", which this conrol,is vital as of the accurecy of the kick,and its placement,..and again our players seem to, lose attention in the heat of the moment,and as DD jan says, " Mizanan zire toop ".
3-Cut...................the understanding of curve balls, and cuts, seem to be hard to our players......To cut !.either inside ,or outside cuts,,,have a meaning,that they just do not get it......to cut , is not neccesarly to make the ball go with curve !!..........the real reason ! is to manipulate the accurecy, and make sure, ball will get where we want it to go.....in another words...when we do not have accurecy of " Moch e pa " placement, we use " Cuts" to make sure, the ball is not going to change direction,after a strong kick !!!!!
4- Time..............here again, is something important, as the understanding of " vital secounds ", as most our players, waist preciouse secounds to adjust, as they are not used to split secound diccisions.and lack of understanding,that other defenders at the same time will get the time to better defend.
5-Vision............another issue,as we see our players not to see far , and can not envision, a tactical set ups, and inside slow passes,with " off side " in mind.
6- killer instinct.................here, is what all is about, for example, what hashemian did in Korea, is the best example for it, when he single handedly scored a goal..........we have only one hashemian.
God Bless both of you !!
I am really impressed. I really mean it. I don't know your background, but with your permission, I will use these material in my next coaching job for forwards. I guess, I had never seen anyone so meticolousy list the characterisitcs of a forward,. "ok, enough sucking up, I have to find a replacement for the Moche Pa catagory (it took me a while to realize what it is but the concept behind it is solid)).
I never dare to claim our forwards are as good as European or South American forwards and of course there is a gap (very wide gap for that matter), our best forward at present is Hashemian which isnt' a starter in Germany league (which btw isnt' the best league in Europe).
So, you are totally right to say European forwards are better. What I was tryign to convey was a 1 in 3 conversion rate for a forward is very good. So if Enayati missed than one opportunity in Mexico game, I dont' blame him too much.
But comparinig Enayati to best European forwards, I wouldnt' even dare to make that comparison. But we need to be realistic about our players and expect from them to the level they can deliver.
Btw, if be kind enough and tell me your first name, I would love to address you by that name compared to ZZ."When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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1- na baba , zz jan. our players miss MORE than those from the better developed countries ( football-wise ). but their strike rates arent that bad for asian standards.
you are very correct on the comparison of our lads with europeans or south americans.
we ARE behind by a mile, not only in players quality, but management and organization also.
but then again, ASAIN standards ( apart from japan and korea ) arent that far off from ours.
luckily, in asia, some other factors of our players which is their technical ability and ball skills make up for our shortcomings in tactical football.
at least against 90% of asian teams it is true.
which is why I say we may be a top 4 or 5 team in asia ( aussies included ). but we are NOT the best.
2 & 3 & 4-
your points 2 , 3 & 4 refer to the fundamentals of basic training at youth level.
yes, our trainers arent that scientific to include all needed training facts and procedures.
I say with this "hardambeel" youth development in Iran, we ought to be thankful we arent bunched with the likes of guam or tajikistan !
5- on vision, we do have some players who have good vision, especially by asian standards.
for example, navidkia was pure class before his injury.
his passing and reading of the team's offensive game was very very good.
So is jabbari.
we DO have some players with pretty good vision. what lets them down is the other aspects of player development !
5- passing.
it's a dicey thing.
branko's team passed a lot. but if you observed these strings of passes, you'd see majority of them are either pass-backs or are IN OUR OWN HALF.
as I always say, you want good possession football and passing ability, watch those teams that do it in the OPPONENT'S half and can string more than 7-8 passes together.
barca is one such team.
but it is very easy to simply "COUNT" the number of passes when the players are not under so much pressure and they trade the ball laterally and back IN THEIR OWN HALF! not as a routine style.
that is not called good passing.
that's called wastage of precious time !
good teams may do this, but they look for openings and then switch to offensive and forward passing within a few passes.
ours stuck with the same lateral and back passing and ppl piled accolade !!!!!!
as for diagonal passing, I say if we can do it with acceptable accuracy, I'm all for it.
it has so many uses especially in transitions or switching of zones, that in asia, we could raise TM's level with such weapons.
there are a few players who used to and still do a good enough job at this.
bagheri was very good at it.
niki, mobaali, ... are pretty good in it too.
6- this is more a personal characteristic of a player than a result of training.
there are forwards who are lethal in 6 yard box, like inzaghi.
they dont have much ball skill or dont do much in a game.
but they USE those half chances well.
we dont regularly see these guys score "SPECTACULAR" goals at all!
they dont "tear" the net with shots
they dont feign and dribble past 4 defenders usually.
they arent even all that flashy.
but they have ur "killer instinct", which makes them convert a no-chance ball into a dangerous opportunity by being well placed, or by mere extending their legs/toes, or being able to twist and wrestle past defenders at last moments or ... .
yes, I'm afraid we dont have many like these in Iran at the moment !Comment
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Ali jaan......
Although for some reason, I can not see it now, but I remmeber your little profile under your user name,said something about " Dayhim "....??!!!
Anyway,thanks for your trust .....and thanks for wanting to know my name..
My name is ' Bahram ' ,and My back ground is not of much significance ,yet,I played all my youth on streets !!, may be 25 hours a day, 8 days a week ...and for a short while ( two years ) I played for " Tehran Javan " with hossain fekri...and we did actualy play with dayhim of taj once......any way..those are by-gone days.
by the way.....I am going to Iran this sunday,for three weeks,and may not be active on this site for a while..........Comment
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Khooshbaskhtam Agha Bahram. Where was Tehran Javan based of? God bless the soul of Hoosein Fekri. He never got the recognition he deserved in Iranian football due to his political background (not during the Shah and not even after the overthrow of the Shah).Originally posted by zzgloo View PostAli jaan......
Although for some reason, I can not see it now, but I remmeber your little profile under your user name,said something about " Dayhim "....??!!!
Anyway,thanks for your trust .....and thanks for wanting to know my name..
My name is ' Bahram ' ,and My back ground is not of much significance ,yet,I played all my youth on streets !!, may be 25 hours a day, 8 days a week ...and for a short while ( two years ) I played for " Tehran Javan " with hossain fekri...and we did actualy play with dayhim of taj once......any way..those are by-gone days.
by the way.....I am going to Iran this sunday,for three weeks,and may not be active on this site for a while..........
As you know Dayheem was in Nezame Abad and was one of the affiliated clubs to Taj. I went there for a couple of training sessions, Nasser Hejazi was coming there and did coaching. I used to live very close to Shahyade square (Current Azadi Square) and Nezame Abad was too far for me. So, after a while I went to practice with Homma which their field was very close to Mehrabad Airport. But all my life I was a Taj supporter and kept in touch from players who were playing for Dayheem and Afsar (who was in soutern Tehran).
Have a safe trip. Jaay man roo ham khali kon tooye Iran. I haven't been to Iran for more than 20 years. I really miss Iran. Wanna go and hang out in Ghisha, Poole Seyed Khandan area, and Tajreesh."When I see the good in you, you get motivated, feel good about yourself and that creates synergy. It creates an environment where everybody can work better together. I think in the Iranian culture it becomes very ordinary to always see the bad in each other."
Afshin Ghotbi ( Former TM Head Coach)
Nasser Hejazi was the Takhti of our football.
Mohammad Panjali (Former PP and TM Captain)
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