The likely scenario for Iran in the Asian Cup 2007

[Adesor Vafaseya]

To me, we have to take it one game at a time. If we face Aussies, so be it. If a team is there to win the whole god damn thing, should act like one and won't be afraid of facing X or Y. We as fans I think should have more confidance in our team as well. This aussie team we tied against in Azadi back in WC98 qualification and Melburne (although they dominated us in Melburne). At that time, there wasn't a decent pitch in Azadi, no Pro IPL and not as many legioners ..... . I think we are overestimating our competitions and underestimating our team.
I play pickup with bunch of Chineese guys sometimes, you should see how these guys talk about Iranian players (even Daie who despite being a great goal scorer in the past, was never a showcase player), but to chinees guys, Dai, Kia and Karimi names is enough to these guys shit their pants. Not saying to get over confident here, but we need to respect ourselves. Cause some guy's name is Tim Cahil or John Aloisi, doesn't mean, Hosseini, Rezai or Karimi aren't as good if not better than him.

well said!

[The-Red]

i still feel that we started late...badansazi should have started a few weeks earlier, even tho I know with so many of our boys playing outside Iran and the IPL and hazfi finishing late, it was kind of impossible, but we always get hurt due to getting together too late!. I hope I am wrong.

[Ali Chicago]

i still feel that we started late...badansazi should have started a few weeks earlier, even tho I know with so many of our boys playing outside Iran and the IPL and hazfi finishing late, it was kind of impossible, but we always get hurt due to getting together too late!. I hope I am wrong.

You are right, we started conditioning late. Even GN in his interviews mentioned we are 10 days late. But I guess these are the challenges of playing football in a globalization era. Iran isn't the only one who is having problem though, if you think we are in bad shape, read the first page article of the Iran Varzeshi (Tuesday) and see how pissed off Ooseem (Japan's head coach) and Peem Verbeek (Korea's coach) are with not having the NT players. Verbeek is so furious with two clubs not giving their players to the NT camp, that he said, he isn't hopeful about Korea's performance in this tournament at all.

[Doctor DOOM]

on the topic:

I think if we get a fairly good physical conditioning done by the team by the time we hit the quarter finals, then it wouldnt matter who we'd meet.
we shd be able to have an equal chance at winning any of the games after that.
so no need to fear aussies or ksa or japan, or .... .

as long as we get a good physical conditioning by the end of group phase.


===============================
this is w referrence to paradigm jan's reply . I know it's off topic, but he did ask me , so here it is:


I don’t know about some of you guys, but my standards and measuring sticks are different.

Not having won a cup in 2 years doesn’t mean diddly sh*t.
Just as having won a cup doesnt mean a coach is superior to the rest. Otherwise all of you have to come here and shout GN is better than denizli, Dr. Z, firroz karimi, kazemi, bonacic, ….
Will you?
I didn’t think so.

So basing it on “winning a cup” is totally flawed.
Wenger didn’t win jack this year.
Is he a horrible coach?
Rajkard fumbled all 3 trophies he’d won last year. Does that mean he’s a poor coach?

Come on ppl. Get some perspective here.
But that is ur opinion and ur right to like or dislike.

In MY books, denizli did a very good job, considering what he had at pp, the kind of trouble this club faced with all its hashiyeh, given its poor management , given the poor roster picked by ANOTHER coach, given the horrendous state of its defenders who either rebelled or were injured thru’ the season, given the illogical expectations of pp fans ( especially when they haven’t won sh*t in 4-5 years !!!! and …. , he still managed to get good quality football out of them, raised their ranking in IPL, had the best offensive team in league ( especially with a team devoid of even a single decent forward ), …. Etc.

Yes, I’d strongly say he has done well at PP. even if he didn’t win the trophy. ( again, plz explain when was the last time this team did win anything ? plz reply to this if you expect me to go on repeating the same thing over and over. And while u r at it, plz explain when was the last time you saw pp play such quality football. Thank you in advance )



Yes, if you ask me, I’d say he’d be extremely good for TM.

p.s.: I’m really fed up of repeating the same thing over and over.
From now on, I’ll just say there are ppl who go by “numbers” , and there are ppl who go a little deeper and whose peripheral vision is a little wider.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman Jaan,

I think you are a little bit (ok more than a little bit) emotionally attached to this Denizli guy. I have been wrong before and I can be wrong on this as well, but this emotional attachement, probably will hinder your judgement.

I respectfully have to point out that coaches at the pro level are there to win and will be judged based on their results. At EPL level or IPL level if a coach can't win the title he has failed. You see a coach at the youth level or u23 level has the luxury of just providing beautiful level and not be as sensetive to the result (since he is a developmental coach). At the pro club level, it is a different story. I hope Wenger, Rajkart and all those coaches that you listed (and are very good coaches nevertheles but failed this year), look at their performance in the last season with a criticial attitude ( I am sure they will). Point is one just can't say, team played well, so coach was successful. Beleive me, this year, Both Arsenal and Braca were the only two teams, I really loved to watch their football (since they played beautiful), and it is really hard for me to admit failure for Wenger or Rajkart in this last season. But winning is where the coach can make a difference (with the right subs during the game, right tactical formation, etc. etc.).

I think we need to differentiate two things here. A coach can be very good and yet not successful in one season. Now a good coach who is consistantly not successful. This will be an oxymorone. If a coach isn't successful consistantly probably he isn't a good coach after all. Please remember I said a very good coach, can fail to win one season and he goes and learns from the things he learned and win titles the next year. So I am not claiming a good coach wins every year. Wether Denizli is a very good coach who just failed to win a single season is debatable at best. Since he failed with Paas as well.

With Denizli, it seems with both Paas and PP, he wasn't able to win. This is getting a bit worrisome. But I still am not ready to make a full judgement there. However, I think failures to win championship with two clubs in Iran, should create a shadow a dobut in your phsycic I assme.

I have always admired your sense of independence and cirtical point of view and I have a hard time to understand (which probably is my fault), how come the same critical point of view isnt' extended to analyze Denizili's performance.

[Doctor DOOM]

lol, ali jan.
I'm not emotionally attached to the guy.
I just liked what he did at PP and Paas .... despite the few mistakes and problems.
that's all.
I also believe he is one of the few foriegn coaches who
are actually GOOD,
and will be able to help our TM,
can acclimatize with Iranian football w all its deficiencies and shortcomings,
can make a better connection w Iranian players,
and most importantly will not take the next flight out as soon as they hear a "no" or "we dont have" or "we cant" ... much like the haans and .... who came and went.

he has guts and is ready to get something ... as much positive as he is capable of, out of the helter skelter football we have.

this is worth appreciating and admiring.
and I do admire such ppl.


--------------

ali jan you said a couple of things that I feel I gotta address:

1- a coach who doesnt win trophy is a failed coach !!
how can that be?
is it so black and white?
so in ALL the leagues in the world they ALL have only one successful coach and the rest are failures?
is that even possible to accept?


2- we mentioned top class coaches, and you said their work is measured by their trophies & only winning is where the coach can make a difference.
well all that can be somewhat close to the truth at high level that everything is more or less in place and all we are left is to see which tactical master is more luckiest/wisest/cleverest of them all.

but in crappy leagues like ours, with all sorts of sub standard football and facilities and amateurish mentality and management and attitude of players and ... , coaches can make a difference in OTHER WAYS TOO.
such as starting or laying the foundation for more quality or better youth program or higher standard of performance or teamwork or ... .


pouring a good engine oil into a bogatti doesnt really make such a difference performance-wise ( maybe it will go from 230 MPH to 238 MPH ), from its neighboring ferrari or ... .
but the same oil , given to a beat up ford will cause palpable improvement in its performance.

or easier :
giving a glass of water to a well fed person wont make much of a difference.
but giving a few drops of it to a dehydrated and thirsty fellow will make quite a change in his well being.

[Doctor DOOM]

3- you said a coach who fails consistently isnt a good coach.
well, arent you too harsh?
I can name tens of GREAT coaches who havent won anything in 2-3 years in a row.
but the world over they are considered GREAT coaches no matter what.

and you are judging denizli by two ... I repeat, TWO seasons ?
hmmm.... lest see how many great coaches I can come up who havent won anything in just 2 seasons .
THE LIST IS TOO BLOODY LONG !


and while on the subject , could u tell me who according to you is a great coach ?
just name a few.













............... just make sure they have won trophies year in and year out , in a row .
non stop.
or at least not missed winning anything by TWO years.
so alternative years also qualify.

[Ali Chicago]

3- you said a coach who fails consistently isnt a good coach.
well, arent you too harsh?
I can name tens of GREAT coaches who havent won anything in 2-3 years in a row.
but the world over they are considered GREAT coaches no matter what.

and you are judging denizli by two ... I repeat, TWO seasons ?
hmmm.... lest see how many great coaches I can come up who havent won anything in just 2 seasons .
THE LIST IS TOO BLOODY LONG !


and while on the subject , could u tell me who according to you is a great coach ?
just name a few.













............... just make sure they have won trophies year in and year out , in a row .
non stop.
or at least not missed winning anything by TWO years.
so alternative years also qualify.

Paymaan Jaan,

I try to address your both posts here.

When I said winning is the norm in a pro league, it doesn't mean that the guy has to win all the trophies, but based on his behavior you can see, if there is a chance for the guy to get there. Does the coach learn from his mistakes? Does he improve on player selection? Does he improve on game reading? How does the team react and adjust to his change of tactics. All of this along with a good organization and a bit of luck lead to championship. So my judgement about Denizli isn't just based on winning. Winning is the culmination of all of these.

It is not just the mere fact that he didn't win two seasons. There are a couple of issues along with that:

To list it will be:
His teams in both Paas and PP weren't able to protect the lead.
His team arrangement was constantly churning
His player selection for the team wasn't top notch. Let's look at the addition of two Syrian players Jabban and Sahboo. Denizili based on the experience knew PP has two weak points, a finisher forward and in the center of defense. Were Jabban and Shabbo guys who addressed the problem? The difference between likes of Denizli and a Jack like me is that vision, that ability to see things. Was his judgement right? If Shaboo and Jabban weren't the high class, why did he ok their signing? After all this is Denizli's professional judgement that will be questioned later.
He wasn't (IMHO) a good game reader. I have mentioned how Boncic realized the slower PP defense in the Hazfi final and brought Karimi and Papi to adjust. What was Denizli's counter? Was a fast guy like Aloong brough in right away as soon as he saw what is Bonacic onto? In subs and the ability of the team to change tactic on the fly is where a high class coach can shine.

Guess lots of people gonna laugh at me, but GN is an example of a guy who learns very fast from his own mistakes. GN probably is nowhere close to Denizli's level of soccer theoretical knowledge but IMHO is much much faster learner than Denizli. GN doesn't have sacred mottos and change things when it doesn't respond.
Let me give you a couple of examples:
Remember how he got kicked out in that freindly against Stutguart, after that he has changed it seems. Even during the 4-0 loss to Mexcio he remained calm.
It seems he is going to play 4-4-2 against Ghana and in AFC, while he was a high advocate of 3-5-2.

Point of this post isn't to say good things about GN, I dont' want to change this post as a GN vs. Denizli. I merely used him to point out a coach who is much more amenable to change and learns and changes in the process.

As for your example of Ferrari and a shitty car, Denizli must be kicking ass, among the less experienced vatani coaches. If he can't shine among these guys where he will be able to shine. For god sake, Denizili wasn't up against Cappello, Ottmar Hitsfield. He was going againt Gholam Payroovani and Beezhan Zolfagharnasab. So if a Ferrari can't beat a Yugo (former East Germany built car), probably it aint' Ferrari.

In my initial post, I said, there is a difference between a coach who is very good but not successful a year or two. Denizli didn't win two seasons with the Iranian teams. He isn't getting a coaching job in Turkey and for most part is a TV analyst with the CNN in Turkey. Doesn't that indicate something. Aren't we are seeing a trend here? Maybe there isn't one and It is all in my head.

[Doctor DOOM]

Paymaan Jaan,
I try to address your both posts here.
When I said winning is the norm in a pro league, it doesn't mean that the guy has to win all the trophies, but based on his behavior you can see, if there is a chance for the guy to get there. Does the coach learn from his mistakes? Does he improve on player selection? Does he improve on game reading? How does the team react and adjust to his change of tactics. All of this along with a good organization and a bit of luck lead to championship. So my judgement about Denizli isn't just based on winning. Winning is the culmination of all of these.


ALI JAN, HAVING THE RIGHT PLAYERS, AND A ROSTER THAT DOESNT REBEL OR GETS INJURED CONSTANTLY AND .... AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, NOT HAVING EVEN A SINGLE DECENT FORWARD TO COVERT ALL THE CHANCES, ..... HAVE NO EFFECT ON "WINNING"?








It is not just the mere fact that he didn't win two seasons. There are a couple of issues along with that:
To list it will be:
His teams in both Paas and PP weren't able to protect the lead.


WHEN DID PP HAVE THE "LEAD" ?
( AND PLZ DONT MENTION THE LAST GAME OF THE SEASON !!


His team arrangement was constantly churning
His player selection for the team wasn't top notch.


I FEEL I'VE BEEN REPEATING THIS FOREVER.
BABA ... AGHAYOON, ... DID HE HAVE A FIT ( PHYSICALLY & MENTALLY ) ROSTER OF EVEN 18-20 PLAYERS TO PICK FOR GAMES?
NO !
MOST CLEAR EXAMPLE: NOORI AS DEFENDER !!
OR BADAMAKI, MADANCHI, NIKI AS "FORWARD" !!!!!!!



Let's look at the addition of two Syrian players Jabban and Sahboo. Denizili based on the experience knew PP has two weak points, a finisher forward and in the center of defense. Were Jabban and Shabbo guys who addressed the problem? The difference between likes of Denizli and a Jack like me is that vision, that ability to see things. Was his judgement right? If Shaboo and Jabban weren't the high class, why did he ok their signing? After all this is Denizli's professional judgement that will be questioned later.

YOU OF ALL MEMBERS SHD KNOW THE "HALF SEASON PICKINGS" ARE NOTHING TO GO BY AND NOTHING IS REALLY AVAILABLE TO THE COACHES.
ALTHO' I AGREE HIS PICKS WERENT GOOD AT ALL.


He wasn't (IMHO) a good game reader. I have mentioned how Boncic realized the slower PP defense in the Hazfi final and brought Karimi and Papi to adjust. What was Denizli's counter? Was a fast guy like Aloong brough in right away as soon as he saw what is Bonacic onto? In subs and the ability of the team to change tactic on the fly is where a high class coach can shine.


YOU COULD REALLY HELP ME IF YOU HAD REFERRED TO OTHER THREADS ON THIS.
VERY SHORT: ELONG HAD PROBLEMS WITH HIM AND PP IN GENERAL, THE MOMENT HE FOUND OUT SPARTAK WAS AFTER HIM. HE KEPT ON MISSING TRAINING AND GAMES AND CAME UP WITH LAME EXCUSES LIKE FAKE INJURIES OR ... . AS A DISCIPLINARY MEASURE DENIZLI WANTED TO KICK HIM OUT, BUT PP MANAGEMENT RESISTED AND REINSTATED ELONG.
HE DIDNT WANT TO USE ELONG, BUT WAS FORCED COZ THE OTHER IDIOTIC DEFENDERS LEFT FOR HIM WERE SO BLOODY AWFUL !!!

DENIZLI DID THE VERY SAME THING BONACIC DID: BRING IN A PACEY FORWARD MIDWAY IN 2ND HALF. ( KAABI - KARIMI )
ONE RISK PAID OFF, THE OTHER DIDNT. BECOZ SEPAHAN'S TEAM IS MORE WELL PICKED, DEVOID OF ALL THE TROUBLES OF PP W ITS MANAGEMENT , PLAYERS, FEES, ...
( REMEMBER ASADI THREATENED THE TEAM DAYS BEFORE THE SEMI FINAL !! THE CAPTAIN OF THE TEAM , FFS !!!!!!!!!!!! )




Guess lots of people gonna laugh at me, but GN is an example of a guy who learns very fast from his own mistakes. GN probably is nowhere close to Denizli's level of soccer theoretical knowledge but IMHO is much much faster learner than Denizli. GN doesn't have sacred mottos and change things when it doesn't respond.
Let me give you a couple of examples:
Remember how he got kicked out in that freindly against Stutguart, after that he has changed it seems. Even during the 4-0 loss to Mexcio he remained calm.
It seems he is going to play 4-4-2 against Ghana and in AFC, while he was a high advocate of 3-5-2.
Point of this post isn't to say good things about GN, I dont' want to change this post as a GN vs. Denizli. I merely used him to point out a coach who is much more amenable to change and learns and changes in the process.
As for your example of Ferrari and a shitty car, Denizli must be kicking ass, among the less experienced vatani coaches. If he can't shine among these guys where he will be able to shine. For god sake, Denizili wasn't up against Cappello, Ottmar Hitsfield. He was going againt Gholam Payroovani and Beezhan Zolfagharnasab. So if a Ferrari can't beat a Yugo (former East Germany built car), probably it aint' Ferrari.
In my initial post, I said, there is a difference between a coach who is very good but not successful a year or two. Denizli didn't win two seasons with the Iranian teams. He isn't getting a coaching job in Turkey and for most part is a TV analyst with the CNN in Turkey. Doesn't that indicate something. Aren't we are seeing a trend here? Maybe there isn't one and It is all in my head.

AMOO, I NEVER SAID DENIZLI IS A FERRARI !
BUT I DID SAY FOR ALL THE GOOD COACHES WE "CAN" GET TO COME TO IRAN, HE SEEMS ONE OF THE BEST AS HE WAS READY TO STAY AND FACE THE PROBLEMS , INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY IMMEDIATELY.
AND HE DID HAVE A PALPABLE EFFECT ON PAAS' AND PP'S STYLE AND GAME.
THEY BOTH PLAYED GOOD, SOUND FOOTBALL ( FOR OUR STANDARDS ) AND TOOK MANY STEPS FORWARD.
TO ME, THAT'S IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS, EVEN IF NOT ENOUGH

[Kavian]

Whatever happens I don't want to see Australia owning Asia on their first appearance in AFC. And frankly there are only two teams that can stop them in Asia. Iran and Japan. The rest of them are easy walkovers.

Iran must be aware of the high possibility of facing the Aussies in the semi finals and must devise good tactics from day one to conserve players for the tough challenge. Aussies facing Iran will have only one thing in mind. Revenge! and I have to say they are not short of having all the top guns to do it! So, we better be careful.

[Ali Chicago]

AMOO, I NEVER SAID DENIZLI IS A FERRARI !
BUT I DID SAY FOR ALL THE GOOD COACHES WE "CAN" GET TO COME TO IRAN, HE SEEMS ONE OF THE BEST AS HE WAS READY TO STAY AND FACE THE PROBLEMS , INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY IMMEDIATELY.
AND HE DID HAVE A PALPABLE EFFECT ON PAAS' AND PP'S STYLE AND GAME.
THEY BOTH PLAYED GOOD, SOUND FOOTBALL ( FOR OUR STANDARDS ) AND TOOK MANY STEPS FORWARD.
TO ME, THAT'S IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS, EVEN IF NOT ENOUGH

Agha Payman,

How many games PP had the lead and screwed the lead up? Please dont' make me to do the painful search through the internet and list them up one by one. Lot of the PP ties were when PP had the lead but couldnt' protect the lead and game was tied.

Well, I guess time will show. We like it or not, there is evaluation at the end. Specially if a coach get paid 1 million dolllars which is a lot by Iranian standards and have tons of fans (as the most popular clubs in Iran) and a third place finish (against a bunch of vatani coaches), I wouldnt' call it a success.

BTW, dont' forget that the thrid place finish by PP was in big part due to the screw up of EsEs in the last three weeks and Sephaan being hamstrung to play in three cups, otherwise PP wouldnt' have got the third spot.

Is Denizli a better coach than vatani coaches ? Yes. Did he deliver for the money he charged? TO me that is a big NO. Dada, if you pay for a BMW, you expect a BMW performance not a Paykan performance. Is he a coach that can bring about result at the natioanl team level for Iran (based on the Paas and PP experiece I tend to say no).

[yashar_fasihnia]

today on jaame jam 2, jalali was the analyser for the jamaica game and he and me were "hamaghideh" in thinking iran will have an easier game against korea rather than saudi arabia.

the reason he mentioned was koreans and east asians in general "mashini fekr mikonan" the coaches sit and analyse karimi and tell them, this is wat u should do to cover karimi, and the korean defender will do nothing but watever the coach tells him to do. wat they tend to ignore is taht karimi is a creative player who can make different decisions at any instant of time.
the east asians have always been less effective in neutralizing our star players.

[zzgloo]

We should not count on Coaches, only on the paper, as thier state of mind and motivation at the time could make a big difference.....
Branko,indeed was motivated, and needed to do good for his own future,as to insure a place in european clubs coaching ....but, Denizali, realy wanted money, he did do good,early on, but the atmospher in Iran got to him, and he saw perspolise as a team, who is run by other hands,and not a coach, so he let it go...and did not realy put much effort for PP.and was already thinking about leaving Iran.

[Paradigm]

With today's results, I have a feeling we could be playing Bahrain in the 1/4-final match. What do you think about that possibility?

[Doctor DOOM]

With today's results, I have a feeling we could be playing Bahrain in the 1/4-final match. What do you think about that possibility?

good choice.
better than facing either ksa or korea.
I'd take these morons anyday than tough teams like those.

and it's been sometime since we thrashed them.
so a re-fresher course may be helpful