Hard Realities, and unfortunate myths !

[Martin-Reza]

I think it is plain wrong to say Senegal beat France last WC due to their high expectations. They surely didn't expect to beat France, noone demanded it from them.

And that is the point. Favourites France had all the pressure and minors Senegal had none, same with Greece in last Euro.

Just minors Iran have pressure to overperform all the time. This is not an environment to have success.

High expectations don't improve the team. If I expect you to run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds you won't become faster.

Setting realistic targets and doing all possible to reach them does. We cannot even set up proper friendlies more than 2 months in advance (due to various reasons), not to speak about infrastructure. So we must adjust our expectations to that unfortunately.

There is a huge difference between having confidence and being killed by overexpectation all the time. This is something you mix up. Confidence is necessary, but we don't lack that anyway. We know we can beat any team on a good day.

[IRN Rugby Playa]

just as I said this months ago, brazil isnt all that rich either.
their infrstrctr is as pathetic as ours.
but what makes them the world dominators that they are?
it is their inherent talent.

WOWOWOWOW HOLD IT THERE DUDEE! CALM DOWN.....where are you going with those facts ??



BRAZIL HAS OVER 50,000 clubs and thier economy is based on football....i did a study on this in my business coursework in school

if i remeber tere was some crazy statistics .... somthing like 40% of economy based on football itself.......imagine a country making money out of football..!!!!!

it is true that many footballers are poor and talented...but as soon as the talent is found they are nourished like diamonds from a rock

[Doctor DOOM]

there is a wealth of wisdom in the saying: "khaastan , tavanestan ast".

unless one believes in himself and his abilities to overcome an obstacle, he will NEVER overcome it.

to climb a mountain 3000 ft high, a 5 ft man should first think he IS capable of beating the odds and conquering it, before even attemtping the first step.
unless he believes that, he will NEVER make it a fraction of the way.


any more explanations needed?
------------------

dear rugby player, they admittedly have many times our human resources.
but what does that have to do with what I am talking about ; "inherent talent in their streets and youth" ?

does having 50,000 clubs mean they are less talented or more talented ?
I dont understand the corelation between the footballing populace and talent, except the place and popularity of the sport within their societies, which accentuates this talent.
now, when was the last time you went to Iran's small towns or districts ?
coz if you had, you'd notice how deep this love of football is ingrained in our societies.

especially since it is the only distraction for the youth, who are denied of almost all basic entertainment available all over the world.

are we LESS interested and crazy about football?
I dont think so.

the difference is our officials dont give football its due, when compared with brazil's officials, since you say 40% of their economy is related to it .

[zzgloo]

I think it is plain wrong to say Senegal beat France last WC due to their high expectations. They surely didn't expect to beat France, noone demanded it from them.
And that is the point. Favourites France had all the pressure and minors Senegal had none, same with Greece in last Euro.
Just minors Iran have pressure to overperform all the time. This is not an environment to have success.
High expectations don't improve the team. If I expect you to run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds you won't become faster.
Setting realistic targets and doing all possible to reach them does. We cannot even set up proper friendlies more than 2 months in advance (due to various reasons), not to speak about infrastructure. So we must adjust our expectations to that unfortunately.
There is a huge difference between having confidence and being killed by overexpectation all the time. This is something you mix up. Confidence is necessary, but we don't lack that anyway. We know we can beat any team on a good day.

martin jan,
Why profecional players in Europe hustle more than Iranian league players ?
why Iranian players hustle more, and run more in important games ?
................It is higher expectation my friend.

[Doctor DOOM]

hehehe !

I guess it was this "confidence" that made branko face teams like laos , panama, lybia, ... with all our stars, rather than using such opportunities to test and find out alternatives for our main players, try out new systems, formations, .... !!

who are you kidding?
branko & confidence?

the guy was so gutless that he lost chance after chance of finding new players for many positions ( we all know which positions ) even in games against utterly weak and sub-par oppositions. and we're supposed to buy this crock of "confidence" ?

not getting a friendly is one thing.
but WASTING away so many opportunities becoz of cowardice and fright is another major damage dealt to our team !!

lets face it.
he's a wimp and all his actions have been a testament to his wimpy nature.


or perhaps we shd all commend his illogical laj-baazi over a certain few players, even when they were not playing well, and his refusal to test others ?
shall we all stand up and clap and cheer for THIS behavior and fool oursleves by calling it "confidence" ?


I read a good article here in ISP :

http://www.***************.com/?c=46&a=2658

worth reading for everyone, no matter which side they belong to.

[zzgloo]

DD jan, I believe, in TM's friendly games such as the one with Lybia, the objective of Branko was not achivement of team work or finding new players, but rather, he was just scared of loseing his job, and was only interested to beat them convincingly !!

[Martin-Reza]

martin jan,
Why profecional players in Europe hustle more than Iranian league players ?
why Iranian players hustle more, and run more in important games ?
................It is higher expectation my friend.

I would say no, but don't know it as a fact of course. If you play in front of some thousand spectators against Macedonia's B team you have no motivation to run and are not willing to risk injuries. If you play in front of 120.000 against Asian Germany, you are surely motivated. The expectations make little difference in my eyes.

I wouldn't say the pressure or the expectations by the public were low against Macedonia. It was a match you had to win and had to win high, you can basically only lose such a match. I think against Germany the expectations were much lower, also the pressure. Noone expected anything, yet the performance was much better.

I think motivation and of course the opponent are decisive. As Magath and Hoeness always say, you need two teams for a good football match. If you have one totally defensive minded, destructive team, the match won't be beautiful. Germany didn't play destructive, they tried to dominate themselves and also gave Iranian strikers space. This, together with being highly motivated and a big crowd in the stands then results in a totally different display than when you play nobodies who defend with 10 men in an empty stadium.

I don't think expectations really help improving the performance. To a certain extent of course, but I think it rather hurts if expectations ruin any euphoria and cause too much pressure.

[zzgloo]

I would say no, but don't know it as a fact of course. If you play in front of some thousand spectators against Macedonia's B team you have no motivation to run and are not willing to risk injuries. If you play in front of 120.000 against Asian Germany, you are surely motivated. The expectations make little difference in my eyes.
I wouldn't say the pressure or the expectations by the public were low against Macedonia. It was a match you had to win and had to win high, you can basically only lose such a match. I think against Germany the expectations were much lower, also the pressure. Noone expected anything, yet the performance was much better.
I think motivation and of course the opponent are decisive. As Magath and Hoeness always say, you need two teams for a good football match. If you have one totally defensive minded, destructive team, the match won't be beautiful. Germany didn't play destructive, they tried to dominate themselves and also gave Iranian strikers space. This, together with being highly motivated and a big crowd in the stands then results in a totally different display than when you play nobodies who defend with 10 men in an empty stadium.
I don't think expectations really help improving the performance. To a certain extent of course, but I think it rather hurts if expectations ruin any euphoria and cause too much pressure.

martin jan...You are, this time, very amazing...!!!
Frankly, I have always enjoyed your posts, and although, we had not agreed on many issues, but ,you have consistantly been logical,and hard to ignore.!!
But, frankly, your comments above, to me, this particular time, sounds like, you meant just to disagree,for the sake of being disagreed !!!!, as, unlike your other posts, it makes no sence !
martin jan, I believe you are is Austria, What do you do for living ?!, if you have worked in western style management, at any job, you would know, the way to efficiency is higher expectation !!!
In football, higher expectation does not neccecerly comes from more fans in the estedium, it comes from EXPECTATION, could come from,fear of, Loseing high salary, Internatinal show off, poletical rivelery, build up motivation.
simply put.....Higher expectation......better result !!!, that is the nature of human being !!!, and that is why, socialism lost to capitalism !!!

[Martin-Reza]

I'm studying business informatics at the technial unversity of Vienna and hope to earn my BA degree in March.

I must say the factor of expectation has not played any role in any courses. I of course might lack practical experience, so I don't claim to know it better.

Yet I don't just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I really don't believe that low expectations are the reasons for football teams underperforming anywhere. I rather think much more often exaggerated expectation stop football from progessing in many places, especially outside Europe. People are impatient, overrate the own team and pressure the decision makers to change the coach constantly, which doesn't allow any healthy development to take place. I'm sure you'll acknowledge the fact this problem is existant in world football, or don't you?

In football, higher expectation does not neccecerly comes from more fans in the estedium, it comes from EXPECTATION, could come from,fear of, Loseing high salary, Internatinal show off, poletical rivelery, build up motivation.
simply put.....Higher expectation......better result !!!, that is the nature of human being !!!, and that is why, socialism lost to capitalism !!!

I don't quite get your point here. What you describe here are different factors than expectation of the public (you name fear of losing income, reputation, rivalry) which affect motivation but then conclude high expectation means better result. Can you explain your view again?

[zzgloo]

Dear martin,
Your major sounds very interesting !!, Business informatic ?!!,I believe, it should have to do with computer and business, and perhaps,management !!
As you and I know, management in Iran is realty horible !!, and that may be the most important reason for lack of efficiency and poor out put !!
In the western Corporate world, manaegments are based on results and out put, Aside from higher qualification reguriements,and trainings, the importance of makeing every minute count in and 9 to 5 jobs, is out most important issue....
In order to get better efficiencies, the manaegments, expect employees to give %110....and to do that, they use, fear of loseing job, and rewards of promotions to motivate employees....Employees are let to believe,that every body is replaceable, and one can get fired at any time...
same in football, as players who do not perform up to the expectation of the coaches,lose thier starting positions, or even get kicked out of club.the players are constantly put in a competing situations,and the coaches, would never show them if they are happy with the players, so the players are constantly led to believe, they need to work harder and better.
One of the reasons, that Russian socialism failed was because of every body was so secure in his or her job, as they never were challenged to work harder.
The european players,in effect, when they come to the field, they try to impress the coaches , and try to make every minute count,as they are affaried of being replaced,and they have made to believe, the expctation is higher than they think !!

[Martin-Reza]

Dear martin,
Your major sounds very interesting !!, Business informatic ?!!,I believe, it should have to do with computer and business, and perhaps,management !!
As you and I know, management in Iran is realty horible !!, and that may be the most important reason for lack of efficiency and poor out put !!
In the western Corporate world, manaegments are based on results and out put, Aside from higher qualification reguriements,and trainings, the importance of makeing every minute count in and 9 to 5 jobs, is out most important issue....
In order to get better efficiencies, the manaegments, expect employees to give %110....and to do that, they use, fear of loseing job, and rewards of promotions to motivate employees....Employees are let to believe,that every body is replaceable, and one can get fired at any time...
same in football, as players who do not perform up to the expectation of the coaches,lose thier starting positions, or even get kicked out of club.the players are constantly put in a competing situations,and the coaches, would never show them if they are happy with the players, so the players are constantly led to believe, they need to work harder and better.
One of the reasons, that Russian socialism failed was because of every body was so secure in his or her job, as they never were challenged to work harder.
The european players,in effect, when they come to the field, they try to impress the coaches , and try to make every minute count,as they are affaried of being replaced,and they have made to believe, the expctation is higher than they think !!

Now I see your point and you are of course very right. I think the major point here is setting the expectation/target realisticly though. You gave 110% as example. This might of course be a realistic target (considering the circumstances of that hypothetical case allow it).

My point, however, is if the target is now set to increase production by 400% without supplying new technologies or anything which would make such an increase possible it would not improve the situation, quite the opposite. And when then people are fired for not being able to deliver four times as much as before it cannot help. The expectations must be set according to the ressources, the situation or rather the reality.

Coming back to Iranian football, I don't think we suffer from under-expectation at all. Considering the given infrastructure, youth system and other issues, the expectations of the Iranian fans are usually too high. If we now set our expectations even higher and demand , in my eyes currently unachievable things, it will not improve our results at all, but it will only lead to more disappointment and pressure on officials to imply short-time changes. Those short-time changes, however, only spoil any attempt of continuity and therefore lead to stagnation of development. So higher expecations in that case have the quite opposite effect than wanted - in my humble opinion of course.

[zzgloo]

Now I see your point and you are of course very right. I think the major point here is setting the expectation/target realisticly though. You gave 110% as example. This might of course be a realistic target (considering the circumstances of that hypothetical case allow it).
My point, however, is if the target is now set to increase production by 400% without supplying new technologies or anything which would make such an increase possible it would not improve the situation, quite the opposite. And when then people are fired for not being able to deliver four times as much as before it cannot help. The expectations must be set according to the ressources, the situation or rather the reality.
Coming back to Iranian football, I don't think we suffer from under-expectation at all. Considering the given infrastructure, youth system and other issues, the expectations of the Iranian fans are usually too high. If we now set our expectations even higher and demand , in my eyes currently unachievable things, it will not improve our results at all, but it will only lead to more disappointment and pressure on officials to imply short-time changes. Those short-time changes, however, only spoil any attempt of continuity and therefore lead to stagnation of development. So higher expecations in that case have the quite opposite effect than wanted - in my humble opinion of course.

Martin jan, I continue this discuasion not to disagree with you,but rather opening up the issue a little more...
In Iran, we should never worry about " too much expectation ", as If I may say, " The culture is in general...**** Goshad..", I say this, not to insult any body, but being realistic....the country of people sleeping during the day, comming late to work, if they come at all, going away from thier desk too often, never listen to demands, doing a work of one day, in two mounths, etc,etc,etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It is a lazy culture, and it also translates in football too.!!!!
I am not a coach, I bet you , I can raise the efficies of any football team in Iran, in matter of 4 to 5 mounths....I simply Kick thier ASS !!!, and the concept of fireing does not exit in Iran, and that is why there is already too low a expectation..................
I Iran, when people meet, they say to each other..." Khasteh nabashid " as if they worked so hard, which no body realy has, with western standards.....
Simply put, The higher expectation, with the tool of fireing ,can best give results in cultures like Iran, which is culturaly " **** Goshad ".pardon my french !!

[Doctor DOOM]

zz jan, begrudgingly, I must admit, arabs are ahead of us in one crucial thing:
they want betterment. constantly.
and they are enterprising little buggers about this progress and their ambitions.

yes, they have the money to effect their road to progress.
but what they lack, we have aplenty : talent and inherent footballing skill at the heart of our society.

and yes, what we lack, they have in abundance:
money and those who want elevation.
admittedly, some of them are way beyond reason and reality, but the fact that they are never satisfied with what they got , shd be emulated by us.

why do you think teams that were like mosquitoes to us a couple of decades ago, are now challenging us and beating us in all tourneys?
oman 4-2
bahrain 3-1
qatar 2-0
kuwait 3-1
uae 3-1
jordan 1-0
lebanon, palestine, syria, .... all have troubled us at one time or another in the past 6-7 yrs .
why?

we KNOW for a fact that they lack our talent pool. but they compensate it with the desire.

the same desire we have lacked.
the same desire that to address an ambition such as demanding advancement in WC first round, comes and nullifies it with "reality check", " hamin-im ke hastim", "ziyadeh khahi", .... !!!

the same attitude that while keeping us at the same position, allowed all the rest of the mosquitoes to reach us and sometimes, even surpass us !!

....... till we reach a day when we shiver and worry when we have to go to bahrain or qatar or ... for a game !!

we have done this to ourselves, and some , continue to do so !!
by insisting on such attitude and ppl who sustain themselves in such mediocre, inferior mentality and stagnating philosophy !!

yes, it is hard to swallow, but we ( some of us more than the rest ) ought to learn from the arabs !!!!!!

when the saudis who came FIRST ( as compared to our second ) in their group, still have the guts to change their coach, what do we see?

some of us say "oh , these arabs ! they always do this ! so stupid".

some others see them worrying this coach is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the next stage of their campaign.
coz obviously, for them mere qualification is not a big deal to make stories and epics about, and put the coach on top of their heads and deem him as omniscient and omnipotent !!

some of us, though see it " whenever you cut your losses, you have gained".
and that's why we continue to push for ouster of this wimp, even if it is 2 weeks left to the games.

coz frankly, seeing how we are shunned by the whole world, it really doesnt make much of a difference WHO is the coach till the games actually start .

any testing or trial or tactical practice is out the window.

so it all boils down to: whether the coach can do something DURING the games.
and frankly speaking, this guy has PROVEN ( by his past 1.5 yrs performance and attitude ) to be TOTALLY & ABSOLUTELY incapable of matching anythign we'd see at the games !!!

it all comes down to what we are able and are ready to do AT the games.
and seeing how he has fumbled and failed in the past 1.5 yrs, it really doesnt take much to put 2 and 2 together and see he's definitely NOT going to get anything good out of games against portugal or mexico.

all he can and I BET , will do is try to play a very closed game and hope for a 0-0 drab draw, so he can fill his sh*tty resume !!

[zzgloo]

DD jan,
Lets forget the Arabs for now, and look at south america.....
Beside Argentina and Brazil..the rest of south America is also very strong and on a good day,they can beat any body......and did you know,
1-The papulation paraguay.......9 million.
2-the papulation of uruguay.....14 million.
3-the papulation ofBolivia.........7 million.
4- peru is about 30 million but is among poorest nations in the world.
and so are other latin countries....
so why , they play so good, and why they present lots of talent?
so, the point I am makeing is that, the papulation in a country is not indecetive of talent level....as, china and india can also atest to that....
700,000 papulation Bahrain,as you said, scares us to death,when we go there ...why ?....
now, going back to arabs,,,,,,,,
have you noticed, the city of DUBAI lately..???or UAE, or the TV algezira,of Qatar ?........
it is all, based on freeddum of decision makeing, Money, and then, Fan base !
yes, as you said, these arab countries are commeing, and commeing strong..
............
And regaurding Branko, .........which, you and I mostly had similar opinion,,,
Have you ever wondered, what Iranian people in Iran think of, the manegement is the " Vezarate darayee " ?, or " Shahrdari" ?,or hundreds of hundreds of institutions ? which are run by stupid officials, and are 100 years away from accumplishing the people'e demands >?....
have paid attention, aside from football, what a stupid system of governement,and decision makeing we have all over Iran ?
............................
and about, Branko...have you noticed, why in the first place, we chose, Branko? an assitant of a coach whom we did not want !!!!!!
Although, Branko, actualy came out better,than he should have, considering the stupid,mentality of chooseing him,to begin with......
Even, Dadkan, is not as bad, as he should be, comparing the other sectore of our country...................
All in all, and current poletical situation,...we seen to have no choice, but to tolerate, Branko, as he realy is not at the top of our concerns !!!

[Doctor DOOM]

agreed zz jan.

but as for branko, and our tolerance:

zz jan, AT the WC, HE WILL be our topmost concern.

as it is going to be HIS inexperienced mentality ruling the team's.

HIS deficient methods dictating the way we will play.

HIS fears and shortcomings that will handicap our team.

HIS inabilities and insecurities ( thus having an extremely INFERIOR staff ) that will
hamper any hope we may have to actually DO something worthwhile.

he , unfortunately, is an obstacle for us now.
he may have been good . but he has clearly run out of steam and ideas.
to persist with him just becoz 2-3 yrs back he did something is plain absurd.