Denizli news

[perspolees]

and btw, if you notice, TM's games are played in a higher level than 10 years back.
bottomline is TM's quality and standards are much higher than what it was 10 years back. so somewhere, somehow, some of the actions have borne fruit, if not completely.

with all due respect I disagree!!
in 1998 we had much better showing. I think our football was better that day than it is today, again proportionally speaking that is to the rest of the world..

and that again was not related to the coaches!! We just happened to have some of teh most talented players gathered in one group..that team was rock solid and had individual talent and will power...that basically has been our story ever since we came off the rails of correct building and attention to infrastructure since 1978..at that pace and provided that we would have gone pro before Turkey's 1982 then today we could have claimed that we have enough maturity that a coach factor would really be important..our sinus wave performances have always depended on the pool of players that we have had at a given time and luck of te draw!! thats basically it

[Doctor DOOM]

persi jan, I do not deny the extremely pleasant surprise of the 98 WC where we out-performed ourselves.
I think everyone agrees that was a surprise as TM hadnt played that efficiently till then. ( MK's team was more "exciting" , but not as efficient as Ivic's )
that was a HUGE leap forward. and the Yugoslavia or USA games were the absolute best performances we've ever had ( in terms of quality of football displayed ) till then. It is that "leap" that we hold very high. ( and again, I must attribute the major part of it to none other than Ivic, who in his short tenure, made wholesale changes in our TM's game & attitude )
but the thing is even that performance ( best of that era ) is not as good as what we see now ( best of present day ).

I am not supporting GN or branko or ... etc. I am merely pointing to the fact that our quality has improved drastically due to many factors that were not present in 98:
1- pro league + all its benefits, including a more competitive set of shahrestaani clubs, and injection of foreign coaches at club level, and ....

2- exposure of our TM players, which now is heavily based on the european legionnaires

3- a sustained injection of decent foreign coaches at most levels of our football, youth, club, national, ... .


I also absolutely agree with you on the inherent talent of our players and if the country hadnt been derailed, our football would have been ahead of the likes of turkey.
but we cant change that now, can we?
and as I said, there is absolutely no indication that the money saved by IFF in hiring of a cheap vatani coach will be diverted to infrastructural needs of our football !
so lets, at least, get the coaching of that talent pool correct.

[Ali Chicago]

I am surprised how everyone attributes the whole 98 semi success to Ivic. Maybe it was, I dont' claim it wasn't, but assumption by default???? Iranian football news wasn't as much available on the internet back on 98. I followed TM news back then through an news group adn email list, but As Persi says, I think Iran's performance in WC 98 and whenever we were success was based on pure individual performances. For example in AFC 2004 it was Karimis 3 goals to Korea and Kia and Kaabi who carried us rather than a huge team effort or outstanding performance a single caoch.

Anyways, I digressed, but I am find it funny that everybody assumes if our team was successful it must have been due to Ivic. No one for example is ready to talk about the embaressing route of 7-1 I think of TM by A. S. Roma.

I don't want to conclude from this, somehow Iranian coaches are better than the so called forigen coaches. But I think there is bias toward a forigen coach. As if, instead of looking at the man's qualifications and his real-time decision making during the game and his preparation plan, instead we are more interested where is he from. If he isnt' from Iran he must be better. Henace the whole benefit of the doubt to Ivic. I don't recall but those stat gurus can someone tell me how long Ivic was in Iran overall? Again, I am not knocking Ivic, he can be teh greatest coach for all I care, the point is our bias.
That is where my favorite saying to Yashar comes handy. We Iranians (majority of us) suffering from an inferiority complex when it comes to Westerners.

[Doctor DOOM]

individual brilliance is one thing that has been always present at our football.
but WC 98's performances were NOT only based on individual displays. we could see a cohesion and systematic feel to the team.

individual brilliance is mostly seen in offense and attacking moves. in WC 98, the team DEFENDED well. the team moved well .
well, compared to how we used to play prior to that anyway.

and frankly, ali jan, I dont see who else would have been responsible but Ivic. MK? his team was very exciting with its attacking attitude. but it wasnt as efficient as the WC team.
Vierra? he wasnt there long enough to have any significant impact.
who then?

-----------

there is no "bias" here.
but dont you agree it is SAFE TO SAY the foreign coaches are a bit more exposed and technically more sound than our home-grown ones ... unfortunately ?
and I am NOT saying ANY foreign coach. but those who have some sort of credible record.

as of the moment, we really dont have many options in terms of a good, efficient vatani coach who could equal some of the foreign options. do we?
this is not inferiority complex, but facing reality.

lets examine:
1- Exposure to high quality football.
among vatani coaches, who has been exposed, first hand, to top class football ?
daei.
ghotbi.
who else?
plz dont count GN's 2 weeks at leverkusan "exposure".
now. both daei & ghotbi may be exposed, but lack the experience and havent been tested as HEAD coaches yet.

2- Experience.
yes, we have some very experienced coaches like parvin, hejazi, Dr. Z, .... but choosing them, we'll be sacrificing another important aspect of the game: MODERN FOOTBALL.

we also have total enigmas like firooz karimi, who cant be figured out. he has experience and his teams show some technical form. but he's more a product of himself than a systematic development and training as a coach.
he IS unpredictable also.
but he seems the best bet for a vatani coach who could take the helm of TM.
anyone else?

[Ali Chicago]

individual brilliance is one thing that has been always present at our football.
but WC 98's performances were NOT only based on individual displays. we could see a cohesion and systematic feel to the team.

individual brilliance is mostly seen in offense and attacking moves. in WC 98, the team DEFENDED well. the team moved well .
well, compared to how we used to play prior to that anyway.

and frankly, ali jan, I dont see who else would have been responsible but Ivic. MK? his team was very exciting with its attacking attitude. but it wasnt as efficient as the WC team.
Vierra? he wasnt there long enough to have any significant impact.
who then?

-----------

there is no "bias" here.
but dont you agree it is SAFE TO SAY the foreign coaches are a bit more exposed and technically more sound than our home-grown ones ... unfortunately ?
and I am NOT saying ANY foreign coach. but those who have some sort of credible record.

as of the moment, we really dont have many options in terms of a good, efficient vatani coach who could equal some of the foreign options. do we?
this is not inferiority complex, but facing reality.

lets examine:
1- Exposure to high quality football.
among vatani coaches, who has been exposed, first hand, to top class football ?
daei.
ghotbi.
who else?
plz dont count GN's 2 weeks at leverkusan "exposure".
now. both daei & ghotbi may be exposed, but lack the experience and havent been tested as HEAD coaches yet.

2- Experience.
yes, we have some very experienced coaches like parvin, hejazi, Dr. Z, .... but choosing them, we'll be sacrificing another important aspect of the game: MODERN FOOTBALL.

we also have total enigmas like firooz karimi, who cant be figured out. he has experience and his teams show some technical form. but he's more a product of himself than a systematic development and training as a coach.
he IS unpredictable also.
but he seems the best bet for a vatani coach who could take the helm of TM.
anyone else?

There are a few Iranians coaches that aren't well known but have high quality coaches. For example everyone gives a lot of credit to Ghotbi for the PP success, but I am sure Marzban who was a coach in Germany had something to do with setting the team up along with Estili.

Another guy is Bahman forootan, who coached Shamooshak. Even guys like Jalali, cheraghpoor, Saleh. Ziaai Saba Battery coach got his soccer education in Hungry I beleive. There are a lot of Iranians right now all over the world. Mohases is a FIFA instructor. The role that guys like Detmar Keramer used to have.

Anyhow, I totally agree wtih your statement that a forigen coach probably is more qualified, but that is not the question. On the question of coaching, it is based on the individuals cases and this type of genearl statements are very dangerous.

You say no bias. Remember Viera? Guy who was Iran's coach for one game against Australia. The guy who hooked him up with IFF was someone I knew. At taht time he was working with the Canadian soccer federation and later moved to London. So through him, I am somewhat familiar with Vierra case. He did nothing and somehow for one game, that he made the most redicoulos sub, subbed in ostad Asadi adn then subbed him again, (subbed the sub) I think and yet he got so much credit.

Individual brilliance doesn't need to be on offensive side only. A goalie (Abed Zadeh) in Iran aussie in Melborne. A good central defender can withstand against attacks by the other team and keep the game even.

I found your comment about, sicne we don't know who the credit should go to, so it must be Ivic a bit strange. Actually, MK at one stage did a lot of good things. Lot of players like Kia or Azizi came to TM because of him. Iran got third or fourth in the footsall under him. So back then, he did some good stuff. Today it is a different story. MK is very conforontatational in human relationship and create tension due to his mood. If he could fix this one major problem, he will be a very successful coach. AGain I am not saying WC 98 was due to MK. But he had a rolem as did Ivic, as did, Talebi and Zolfaghar nasab and many others that you and I don't know.

[yashar_fasihnia]

ali_chicago, valdir viera subbed in ebrahim tahami (esteghlal ahvaz forward) and then subbed him out. while going out of the field, tahami kept bending down to close his shoe lace and waste time and got a yellow card from sander paul.

in the second goal, he too was onside with azizi and he had made a run from the side but azizi finished it off himself.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan, I totally forgot about Jalali, who falls into the younger, but modern thinking set of vatani coaches.
Much as I like him, he still hasnt showed he can work with a DEFICIENT system & club.

He could do great things if he was given a proper club with proper youth system and facilities and management. He could do wonders in arabic countries. but in Iran, the deficiencies hamper him.

as for forootan, having trained in germany is a credit. but again, he didnt show much to warant him being a candidate for TM.
Marzban, I dont know. so no comments on that.

Cheraaghpoor, sadly has retired from coaching and is happy being an expert. otherwise retired guys like him and Haaj-rezaei are great assets who can be very useful to any team. I just cant explain why teams choose guys like Ziaei ( who is not a good coach at all, despite his hungary back ground ) and not hire these guys other than these guys not wanting to coach!

But even when we have options like karimi, jalali, ... you know, deep down, someone like denizli can bring more to the table than them.


===================

tahami subbing:

first of all, I think what Tahami did ( at Melbourne ) is what got us into the WC.
watch the first goal again.
If Tahami hadnt run after the loose ball and hadnt persisted ( and tangled with the defender ) , the ball wouldnt have bounced to azizi who was late to arrive at the scene.
( without Tahami, the ball would have been collected by either the defender or the GK and azizi was too late to do jack. )
and then azizi got to pass and .... .

on 2nd goal, yashar is right. Tahami was on-side and was a valid option.
and in fact, azizi did the less desirable & logical thing of going himself, rather than passing to a free comrade w an open goal in front of him ! we're just lucky the ball bounced over the GK's out-stretched foot and .... .
so Tahami was a rather influential player in the game and , in hindsight, I say was an excellent subbing.

now, it isnt all that "ridiculous" a subbing , is it?




as for the yellow card, yashar jan, if you have the film you can see what happened ( I remember so vividly, coz I notced it then and have discussed it elsewhere too ). Tahami was walking back to the sideline. then rushes in Estili who screams at him ( most probably "waste time. tie ur laces, ... " ) and only THEN does Tahami bends down to first UNTIE and then tie his shoes, which got him the yellow !
so who's the responsible guy? estili


================

I have always credited MK with his vision & scouting ability to bring in young hopefuls like kia, minavand, yazdani, ... .
what I said was Ivic's team was more or less the same roster as MK's. but HOW they played and how EFFICIENTLY the TEAM performed is the differing area.

[Ali Chicago]

ali_chicago, valdir viera subbed in ebrahim tahami (esteghlal ahvaz forward) and then subbed him out. while going out of the field, tahami kept bending down to close his shoe lace and waste time and got a yellow card from sander paul.
in the second goal, he too was onside with azizi and he had made a run from the side but azizi finished it off himself.

Thanks for the correction and sorry fo rthe inaccuracy, but I beleive my point still stands, subbing the sub that shows the depth of Vierra subbing strategy.

The comment Vierra made after the game was so redicoulous that showed how stupid this guy was. He said something like, I am happy Iran won, so now they (Iranians) are celeberating and not going to fight among each other and to other people. He insulated a whole nation. That comment in itself showed how intelligent this man was.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan, I totally forgot about Jalali, who falls into the younger, but modern thinking set of vatani coaches.
Much as I like him, he still hasnt showed he can work with a DEFICIENT system & club. .....

.

There is a whole new generation of new coaches, Estili, marfavi, Reza Ahadi, Salehi, Namjoo Motlagh, even Ebrahim zadeh (not Ebrahimi) and many many others who aren't Hezboolahi or are ready to pretned to be religious to get the head coaching in a big club. Even guys like Eghbali who are AFC instructor as well are great coaches. But probably as you know, in football like anyother thing connections at times are much more important that football qualifications.

You are underestimating Foorootan. But Payman Jaan, a coach's performance to a large degree is dependent on players he has and club system. Foorootan coached Shamooshak that next to EsEs Ahwaz is the only real private club in IPL. The very old owner of the Shammooshak (forgot his name), interfered in everything. Foorootan, lost a lot of his players sicne club didnt' have the money to keep them. Guys like Mohsen Yousefi, Hashemi Zadeh, Benghar, Khalatbari and Maysam Baoo, and many mnay other left. Next year when Shamooshak demoted to Azadeghan league. He started with a bunch of no name younger players and stayed at the top three teams in Azadeghan league until the 3/4 of the season. The guy is a gem soccer wise, although at times makes nuts comments.

As for your comments about Tahami, my point wasnt' Tahami was good or bad, I was refering to the coaching ability of the

[Doctor DOOM]

ali jan, all those names have more or less shown they are NOT ready to take TM's helm.
and actually I'd add Ahmadzadeh who has done great things with malavan in the past 4-5 years ( on & off ).

clubs, yes. definitely. but NOT TM.
look at how marfavi bungled ss' chances when they found themselves head of the pack !
and a few guys like estili are not even in the same category as jalali or karimi or ... ! I dont know why you even mentioned this guy !
great player. but as a coach he's done nothing to deserve being put alongside jalali and co.

---------------

the point in Tahami discussion was to show you how a simple subbing can change the fortunes of a game.
you know as well as I that coaches who make such substitutions deserve the credit for such decisions, fluke or not.

and besides, I did say vierra's tenure was too short to make it of any significance.

[perspolees]

persi jan, I do not deny the extremely pleasant surprise of the 98 WC where we out-performed ourselves.
I think everyone agrees that was a surprise as TM hadnt played that efficiently till then. ( MK's team was more "exciting" , but not as efficient as Ivic's )
that was a HUGE leap forward. and the Yugoslavia or USA games were the absolute best performances we've ever had ( in terms of quality of football displayed ) till then. It is that "leap" that we hold very high. ( and again, I must attribute the major part of it to none other than Ivic, who in his short tenure, made wholesale changes in our TM's game & attitude )
but the thing is even that performance ( best of that era ) is not as good as what we see now ( best of present day ).

I am not supporting GN or branko or ... etc. I am merely pointing to the fact that our quality has improved drastically due to many factors that were not present in 98:
1- pro league + all its benefits, including a more competitive set of shahrestaani clubs, and injection of foreign coaches at club level, and ....

2- exposure of our TM players, which now is heavily based on the european legionnaires

3- a sustained injection of decent foreign coaches at most levels of our football, youth, club, national, ... .


I also absolutely agree with you on the inherent talent of our players and if the country hadnt been derailed, our football would have been ahead of the likes of turkey.
but we cant change that now, can we?
and as I said, there is absolutely no indication that the money saved by IFF in hiring of a cheap vatani coach will be diverted to infrastructural needs of our football !
so lets, at least, get the coaching of that talent pool correct.

az shoma dige bayeede!!
cmon man, what ivic! what this coach or that...that group0 of players were talented and went in and out did themselves on a world stage..they took an opportunity in australia and tied the game purly on self talent and luck and then used that and sold themselves out to foreign teams after world cup performance..that is all. thats what happened, ivic certainly did not do anything rootworthy!! if he did we would see it now too! it was a flash, flashes do happen for 2 reasons as I mentioned above

player outperformance ( we have tha talent in iran and we are known to be inconsistant)
and
luck of the draw

these two will bring you temporary flashes

rootworthy chanes dont come in a year or two, they come with hard work and in years..

so essentially we have had NOTHING sensible as far as coaching why spend so much money for someone that will come and get rich and then go and laugh at us!?

the idea is fundamentally wong and I am against doing and spending a dime when it will go to waste!
iff is not spending money on the infrastructure, There is theft, etc. , there is no organization, and on and on...on that ground hiring expensive foreigners is like adding insult to injury

simple example:

you will never qualify for a heart or kidney transplant if you have cancer unless you pay shiit load of money. Nevertheless that is still futile...exactly the same anology with foreign coaches and expensive shiit for a cancerous football body of Iran...we should focus on this curable cancer full force and then think about this and that..

[Doctor DOOM]

I didnt say anything about "root-worthy".
I said he had direct impact on how we played at the WC.
there is a difference.

as for a longer-lasting impact, I think if Ivic was given a mandate like branko, we'd have seen pretty huge changes in our TM and football at national level.


============

and as I asked before , if this is not correct , then what do YOU think is correct?
I did ask for your view on how to get things done correctly.
denouncing something is rather easy. but coming up with a feasible and do-able plan is something else.

[perspolees]

I didnt say anything about "root-worthy".
I said he had direct impact on how we played at the WC.
there is a difference.

as for a longer-lasting impact, I think if Ivic was given a mandate like branko, we'd have seen pretty huge changes in our TM and football at national level.


============

and as I asked before , if this is not correct , then what do YOU think is correct?
I did ask for your view on how to get things done correctly.
denouncing something is rather easy. but coming up with a feasible and do-able plan is something else.

thatsit aagain would have could have, etc... but NOTHING!

starting point imho:

1. Education!
bang on the infrastructure issue ( lack thereof) and make it known as the diagnosis of our footballs failure. Make it go into the brains of our common people. make them first see and realize , then be able to gather up, and unite to demand attention and change. Familiarize them witht he right models of football growth.

2. Pay the shiit load of money that we spend without any return on this coach or that and more in dozdi and political BS to HIRE THINK TANKS AND MARKETTING GURUS TO PREPARE THE BED FOR A TRUE PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL

3.Make the bed ( PASS RULES AND REGULATIONS SO THAT THE PEOPLE FROM ITEM 2 COULD IMPLEMENT BASIC AND ADVANCED RULES)ready for a for profit oriented football structure, from marketting to TV , etc.

4. Make every single IPL team to have a plan for the following:
all youth level teams
a private stadium and attached facilities for a pro club or face relegation...help them achieve these goals and support them financially and in every which way to get to those milestones

5. Support and I mean support our young teachers and coaches to get trained in europe and bring them back to a well established bed with lots of job opportunities to go to work. Create something like "coach trainig"
exam that has certain criteria ( both football and technical aspects and English or the likes foreign language) mandatory for coaches to get thru, and if they do ( obviously with bunch of other technical football rules attached to it to choose te right and educated people)
Make that milestone so huge like say 60k dollars in salary with paid one to two years fellowships in europe so that our brite ones compete for it and once thru they will ahve a great fortune and will add to Iran and I mean they will because they are from that abokhak and that football....

THESE would be for starters and say with goals of short, mid and long term implementation to finish within 10 years.

I would spend every minute and every dime on that as opposed to this coach or that and tm would be the same crap now and for many years to come as it has been te case..

do the above and I do not care who will coach tm for the next 10 years!! we will be a power to reckon with
do not do the above I still dont care who is teh coah since it will not make any rootworthy dorn diff. for our football...i.e. the coach factor now for tm on this ground is unimportant

[Doctor DOOM]

ah ah ah !
persi jan, I didnt ask for an "ideal" plan.
I asked for a plan that IRAN and IFF would implement. which means you shd take into consideration that they will NOT spend the right amount of money, the corruption, the attitude of officials, the ... .

what you just wrote above is an "ideal" plan that we all know will not happen anytime soon in Iran with the present gov't, ... and frankly, I must add, Iranian mentality ( our laziness and cutting-corners & always seeking short-cuts has nothing to do with the IRI. it's simply Iranian ).

do you think the clubs havent been told about the need for the youth system?
and how many have got a decent youth system?

do you think the clubs havent been told to have their own facilities and stadium and infrastructure?
how many have it ?

do you think the clubs havent been pushing for TV rights till now?
how many teams recieve it and at what percentage?

do you think marketing and foreign investment havent been thought about?
but have they solved the matter of "copy-rights" after all the years?

do you think until now they didnt know about educating the young coaches at europe ?
how many get it and who?
anyone who is either "connected" to somebody or is pushed by a few powerful ppl. and how long is this "education"? weeks at the maximum.
remember, our nat'l team coach's claim to this education is a 2 week course at leverkusan !
NATIONAL TEAM COACH !


you know as well as I that none of your plans ( logical and positive as they are ) will be implemented in IRAN.
a place like japan? korea? saudi? uae? yes.
in Iran? NO!

[perspolees]

ah ah ah !
persi jan, I didnt ask for an "ideal" plan.
I asked for a plan that IRAN and IFF would implement. which means you shd take into consideration that they will NOT spend the right amount of money, the corruption, the attitude of officials, the ... .

what you just wrote above is an "ideal" plan that we all know will not happen anytime soon in Iran with the present gov't, ... and frankly, I must add, Iranian mentality ( our laziness and cutting-corners & always seeking short-cuts has nothing to do with the IRI. it's simply Iranian ).

do you think the clubs havent been told about the need for the youth system?
and how many have got a decent youth system?

do you think the clubs havent been told to have their own facilities and stadium and infrastructure?
how many have it ?

do you think the clubs havent been pushing for TV rights till now?
how many teams recieve it and at what percentage?

do you think marketing and foreign investment havent been thought about?
but have they solved the matter of "copy-rights" after all the years?

do you think until now they didnt know about educating the young coaches at europe ?
how many get it and who?
anyone who is either "connected" to somebody or is pushed by a few powerful ppl. and how long is this "education"? weeks at the maximum.
remember, our nat'l team coach's claim to this education is a 2 week course at leverkusan !
NATIONAL TEAM COACH !


you know as well as I that none of your plans ( logical and positive as they are ) will be implemented in IRAN.
a place like japan? korea? saudi? uae? yes.
in Iran? NO!

you are talking about a plan, the plan is as set forth!
now we need gurus to implement it in Iran, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
thats all

and no the clubs have not asked for teh rites properly, and no there are plenty of things that they have not domne properly
and no this will not happen if we do not get private clubs, so in essence what I am saying is to first start with 1!!! education for the masses to see that this is indeed the problem and NOT THIS COACH VERSUS THAT!

AND THATS THE ESSENCE OF OUR CONVERSATION!
we will not go thru this journey before taking the first step...rite now its all about the stuff THAT HAS NEVER MATTERED, IE THIS COACH VERSUS THAT!

the next iff head will use that item again to send us all after nokhod siyah!
this attitude of this coach will be better than that one foreigner versus iranian is just a pure BS!

our football needs many other things to get to tht luxurious point where we could logically discuss and have a methodical outcome control over their performance...