Professionalism!

[maij]

Great post. It identifies the problem, but can you offer a practical solution??

The solution is available and ready , the implementation is perhaps near impossible.

For example , anyone can offer an advice to read: Clubs must respect player's contract between and should be paid on time. All the clubs will say , yes by all means ....comes the day that the players have to be paid ....there are all sort of excuses for delaying......This used to be and probably still is , a major issue with Iranians players playing in IPL.

So , it seems that people can offer solutions , but for variety of reasons , implementation is simply difficult.


Shock therapy is another choice

[zzgloo]

I may be the oldest member here, Actualy once,maij,challeneged me on that,but he back downed !!......I also have done all kinds of managements in my life.................
To cut the story, there is one answer,to profesionalism,and that is .....CAPITALISM,and its pure kind............
If you look up in dictionary,it means, when government does does not interefier in bussiness..............
When, businesses,are privetly owned,and are free, they compete,and they would demeand,efficient out put,then,you get to have massive fireing for lack of efficiencies, then you get people to live, with ..the pholosophy of....::
" Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " !!!
This will take time, but it is the only way, to better management, and better work ethics, and uIltimately, proffesionalism !!

[purple_haze]

I may be the oldest member here, Actualy once,maij,challeneged me on that,but he back downed !!......I also have done all kinds of managements in my life.................
To cut the story, there is one answer,to profesionalism,and that is .....CAPITALISM,and its pure kind............
If you look up in dictionary,it means, when government does does not interefier in bussiness..............
When, businesses,are privetly owned,and are free, they compete,and they would demeand,efficient out put,then,you get to have massive fireing for lack of efficiencies, then you get people to live, with ..the pholosophy of....::
" Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " !!!
This will take time, but it is the only way, to better management, and better work ethics, and uIltimately, proffesionalism !!

Well the thing is, us being iranians and how we are, we usually can't follow a distinctive path without diverting left and right and wanting to have it all. Because of this, right now in the chaotic system reigning in Iran, Capitalism and Government control actually co-inside, as crazy at it sounds! Both are present, but in true iranian manner, none of them are executed properly!

Beside, the competition factor that you mention, is indeed fundamental for progression, but then, yet again we have to deal with the iranian version of competition, which means, instead of trying harder and improving yourself to reach the top, you don't spend your energy for improvment, instead you concentrate it fully on destructive competition. You do whatever it takes to prevent other people's success.

You say " Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " but with us it's usually " Everyone wants to lead, but in talking and not actuall action. Nobody wants to follow, but we all follow whoever talks bigger and finally we all just get in each other's way".

[maij]

Well the thing is, us being iranians and how we are, we usually can't follow a distinctive path without diverting left and right and wanting to have it all. Because of this, right now in the chaotic system reigning in Iran, Capitalism and Government control actually co-inside, as crazy at it sounds! Both are present, but in true iranian manner, none of them are executed properly!

Beside, the competition factor that you mention, is indeed fundamental for progression, but then, yet again we have to deal with the iranian version of competition, which means, instead of trying harder and improving yourself to reach the top, you don't spend your energy for improvment, instead you concentrate it fully on destructive competition. You do whatever it takes to prevent other people's success.

You say " Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " but with us it's usually " Everyone wants to lead, but in talking and not actuall action. Nobody wants to follow, but we all follow whoever talks bigger and finally we all just get in each other's way".

Bekhoda , 10 people with the same mentality as yours will tremendously improve any system in Iran, let alone football

Agha ..damet garm.

[maij]

I may be the oldest member here, Actualy once,maij,challeneged me on that,but he back downed !!......I also have done all kinds of managements in my life.................
To cut the story, there is one answer,to profesionalism,and that is .....CAPITALISM,and its pure kind............
If you look up in dictionary,it means, when government does does not interefier in bussiness..............
When, businesses,are privetly owned,and are free, they compete,and they would demeand,efficient out put,then,you get to have massive fireing for lack of efficiencies, then you get people to live, with ..the pholosophy of....::
" Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " !!!
This will take time, but it is the only way, to better management, and better work ethics, and uIltimately, proffesionalism !!

I don't really remember that argument , but I believe Purple Haze answered the question perfectly.

If I need to add , and I think everyone knows that anyway, capitalisms exist in Iran , so is free market , but according to criteria set by the government.

Major enterprises such as NIOC and Mes Sar cheshme are independently run companies , but owned by the government!

[maij]

One more thing....

As it stands now , football clubs CAN NOT be totally run independently and purely based on commercial basis.

There must be a major over haul to do that. Can you imagine Paykan or Saipa among many other teams, depending on match reciept and commercials to sustain the team......???

[zzgloo]

I don't really remember that argument , but I believe Purple Haze answered the question perfectly.

If I need to add , and I think everyone knows that anyway, capitalisms exist in Iran , so is free market , but according to criteria set by the government.

Major enterprises such as NIOC and Mes Sar cheshme are independently run companies , but owned by the government!

Dear maij,and Dear purple_haze................
(By the way, maij jaan,it was about two years ago,during an argument we had,and a post,.......which the age issue came up )
You both say,which is true,that Iranian mentality is of " MAN ",that is " I ",..and every body plays his own song..............and you say we already have capitalism in Iran..............
to answer that, I must say, that NO, we do not have Capitalism in Iran,no....
first, if you ask people who live in Iran, and ask business owners, ..you will see, every body is very afraid of thier employees,as they are extremly spoiled,and ask for pention,insurance, time off,benefits,etc,as govenment is so behind them..and look at the issue,as if you are cutting the livelyhood of a family....all the time, and more importantly, there is something " Non-exitance",in Iranian work enviroment.....and it is so vital to capitalism....and that is "" Fireing "...
In Iran, No body gets fired, every body gets job for life..............in USA,avarage people change jobs,at least 10 times in thier lives, if not 50.
In Iran,No manager has the guts to say to thier empolyees, to get the **** out !
In Iran, the government, has hand in all fireing,and hireing.....
And, the core,nature of capitalism....is........"" Fireing ".....it may sound simple, but it is so fundemental !!
And, once, the fear of geting fired is part of dayly life,in all levels,... there will be no more " MAN " !!
In USA,they call it accountability !!!

[Ali Chicago]

Well the thing is, us being iranians and how we are, we usually can't follow a distinctive path without diverting left and right and wanting to have it all. Because of this, right now in the chaotic system reigning in Iran, Capitalism and Government control actually co-inside, as crazy at it sounds! Both are present, but in true iranian manner, none of them are executed properly!

Beside, the competition factor that you mention, is indeed fundamental for progression, but then, yet again we have to deal with the iranian version of competition, which means, instead of trying harder and improving yourself to reach the top, you don't spend your energy for improvment, instead you concentrate it fully on destructive competition. You do whatever it takes to prevent other people's success.

You say " Either lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way " but with us it's usually " Everyone wants to lead, but in talking and not actuall action. Nobody wants to follow, but we all follow whoever talks bigger and finally we all just get in each other's way".

It is not all gloom and doom in Iran. I myself being from older generation of Iranians, when I compare myself and my generation to this generation, I see improvement. When I was your age, I didnt' have half the wisdom that you and many like you (yashar comes to mind or Agha Kasra) display in this forum.

Dont' want to act wise and know it all or paint an American Disney world picture of situation in Iran, but progress is happening in Iran, despite what many of these fascite mullahs are doing and before that many of Iranian rulers did.

To put my two cents, Capitalisem exist in Iran, as still there are feudalisem and many other social formation (in Baluchistan, for example there are people who work for the Khans and almost being treated like slaves not even getting paid, but live in Khan's house and being taken cared by the Khan).

What ZZ mentions about no competition in Iran and employers being scared of their employees, may exist in isolated cases (but that isn't the prelevent). There are millions of workers that right now live in Iran and work and still haven't being paid for a year. I am talking their salary hasn't been paid after a year.

[zzgloo]

There is no Capitalism in Iran................we should remmember,the defenition of the capitalism,as I stated it earlier...." GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INTEFIER IN BUSINESS ""`
What we have in Iran, is all government....................look at IFF as example.......all teams,are hideing the fact,the government is the owner, and decision maker...either directly, or through a company own by government, or ,an owner assignend by government.
Everybody's Job is secoured !!,there is no fear !!,defenetly no fear of lack of out put, may be only, fear of not haveing stong connections in the system.
When I used to live in mexico,my mexican friend in mexico used to tell me,that mexicans are very lazy,they called and critisize thier own culture,and used to say : " somos flujos " or " juegones "....but, I told them ,the mexicans in USA,are known as hard workers......as we Iranians in USA,are not lazy or inefficient either...............which tells me, it is all " the system ".

[Ali Chicago]

There is no Capitalism in Iran................we should remmember,the defenition of the capitalism,as I stated it earlier...." GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INTEFIER IN BUSINESS ""`
.

Bahram Jaan;

With all the due respect, that is not the defenition of capitalisem. As a matter of fact government in a capitalist system, controls, interfere and even serves the capitalisem. It is in service of the capitalists. Governement defines the system, framework, legal system, laws, police, army to help, serve and defened capitalisem.

Do I need to remind you that current government of US serves and as you said interferes in business. How do you explain the breakup of AT&T in 1984? How do you explain the Anti Trust laws in the US. I don't think anyone can claim that US system isn't a capitalist system.

Do you want anther example outside USA? How abotu CANADA? NAFTA was in favor of financial and insurance industry in Canada but hurt the manufacturing section of Canada's economy. But at the end, NAFATA was signed, since the Banks and insurance companies at the end wanted access to US market. As you can see the government by signing NAFTA sided with the insurance and banks and agaisnt the manufacturing section of Canadain economy.

Another example? How about how British government kept the value of Pound high after the second world War. This meant financial institues in Engalnd didnt' loose money, but it bankrupted the manufacturing and export industries in the England.

Defention of a capitalist system is a system in which those who have access to capital can enjoy the services of the government and favorable lawas and institution to generate wealth for themselves and hopefully!!! pay taxes to the government. That is why nowadays you see a lot of US based comapneis have an office in Kayman Island (to pay less or no taxes).

I beleive what you are refering in Iran is lack of rule of law, where governement doesn't observe the law of the country. This is a deep issue in Iran, and even during Qajareeyeh Mirza Molkem Khan has mentioned this. This lack of rule of law is mainly due to despotisem and dictatorship that has ruled in Iran across centuries. Even Marx mentions this system in his book as "Asian Production Model". In which government (in part due to the irrigation system in old days) rules every aspects of the society. Compare this with the feudal system in Europe in which a local Feudal ruled its own area. Anyhow, I don't want to get too involved into the whole sociology of this, but tried to clarify a few points.

[maij]

Very nice Ali Jan , I couldn't agree more.
What Bahram mentioned about the extra/excessive employees protection by the government , is not unique or exclusive to Iran. Our good friends the British excel in that. In fact , to my knowledge , the US is probably one of the very few countries that a boss can say your fired as easy as he drinks his glass of water.

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jaan;
With all the due respect, that is not the defenition of capitalisem. As a matter of fact government in a capitalist system, controls, interfere and even serves the capitalisem. It is in service of the capitalists. Governement defines the system, framework, legal system, laws, police, army to help, serve and defened capitalisem.
Do I need to remind you that current government of US serves and as you said interferes in business. How do you explain the breakup of AT&T in 1984? How do you explain the Anti Trust laws in the US. I don't think anyone can claim that US system isn't a capitalist system.
Do you want anther example outside USA? How abotu CANADA? NAFTA was in favor of financial and insurance industry in Canada but hurt the manufacturing section of Canada's economy. But at the end, NAFATA was signed, since the Banks and insurance companies at the end wanted access to US market. As you can see the government by signing NAFTA sided with the insurance and banks and agaisnt the manufacturing section of Canadain economy.
Another example? How about how British government kept the value of Pound high after the second world War. This meant financial institues in Engalnd didnt' loose money, but it bankrupted the manufacturing and export industries in the England.
Defention of a capitalist system is a system in which those who have access to capital can enjoy the services of the government and favorable lawas and institution to generate wealth for themselves and hopefully!!! pay taxes to the government. That is why nowadays you see a lot of US based comapneis have an office in Kayman Island (to pay less or no taxes).
I beleive what you are refering in Iran is lack of rule of law, where governement doesn't observe the law of the country. This is a deep issue in Iran, and even during Qajareeyeh Mirza Molkem Khan has mentioned this. This lack of rule of law is mainly due to despotisem and dictatorship that has ruled in Iran across centuries. Even Marx mentions this system in his book as "Asian Production Model". In which government (in part due to the irrigation system in old days) rules every aspects of the society. Compare this with the feudal system in Europe in which a local Feudal ruled its own area. Anyhow, I don't want to get too involved into the whole sociology of this, but tried to clarify a few points.

Ali e Aziz ;....................How I defined Capitalism,was what we were told,by our teacher,in The Gov. class we had,during my school years.
Iranian system, can be described in many different ways,but capitalism is not among them .It is extremly unique........what ever it is, it is defenetly not consistant.
Capitalism,not only brings profesionalism, but also ,it brings " Civilization ".people will be so profesional,...they come to believe in such things as, profesional Morality...and business ethics...............
It is no longer,cuting the lively-hood of a family of an fired employee, but , it will be matter of being unfair to the more qualified.
With the help of Law,and Civilization:More demand from an employee, will lead to more expectation from empolyer......
My main point is, All profesionalism, Civilization,and capitalism, are far more dominant,than either religon,or culture..............,although They will finaly learn to co-exist.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali e Aziz ;....................How I defined Capitalism,was what we were told,by our teacher,in The Gov. class we had,during my school years.
Iranian system, can be described in many different ways,but capitalism is not among them .It is extremly unique........what ever it is, it is defenetly not consistant.
Capitalism,not only brings profesionalism, but also ,it brings " Civilization ".people will be so profesional,...they come to believe in such things as, profesional Morality...and business ethics...............
It is no longer,cuting the lively-hood of a family of an fired employee, but , it will be matter of being unfair to the more qualified.
With the help of Law,and Civilization:More demand from an employee, will lead to more expectation from empolyer......
My main point is, All profesionalism, Civilization,and capitalism, are far more dominant,than either religon,or culture..............,although They will finaly learn to co-exist.

Bahram Jaan;

I dont' know which school you went to in US. But even among the schools who teach public administration there are several school of thoughts. For example The school of Public adminastrtaion in Chicago is amongst the most ultra right/conservatives in the public adminsitration and policies. If you go to South and Latin America and talk to their intellectual they will talk about the so called "Chicago boy". These were the graduate of chicago who went and work with Pinochette in Chille and built the econemy there. Despite US governemtn even kept some distance from Pincohette after the human right violations.

What you are refering too are different degrees of protection within a capitalist system that Agha Majid pointed to in his last post. In European countries for example every one from the start 6 weeks of paid vacation (as far as I know). In US you start with 2 weeks and after years and years u can get 3 and I think at max is 4 weeks of paid vacation. So due to strong labor movements in Europe they enjoy better benefit. Bosses can't fire people right away etc. etc.

Situation in Iran isn't the same as Europe though. In Iran due to the income that governemnt obtain from Oil, has a very unique economy that some of the basic premises of Capitalsiem at times (profitability etc.) are underminied for political means. As it is, this thread has been diverted away from its original post, so I won't write more about the impact of Oil Economy. If you would like we can talk about it in PM or offline, so other folks don't get bored with these stuff.

[purple_haze]

It is not all gloom and doom in Iran. I myself being from older generation of Iranians, when I compare myself and my generation to this generation, I see improvement. When I was your age, I didnt' have half the wisdom that you and many like you (yashar comes to mind or Agha Kasra) display in this forum.

Dont' want to act wise and know it all or paint an American Disney world picture of situation in Iran, but progress is happening in Iran, despite what many of these fascite mullahs are doing and before that many of Iranian rulers did.

To put my two cents, Capitalisem exist in Iran, as still there are feudalisem and many other social formation (in Baluchistan, for example there are people who work for the Khans and almost being treated like slaves not even getting paid, but live in Khan's house and being taken cared by the Khan).

What ZZ mentions about no competition in Iran and employers being scared of their employees, may exist in isolated cases (but that isn't the prelevent). There are millions of workers that right now live in Iran and work and still haven't being paid for a year. I am talking their salary hasn't been paid after a year.

Ali jan thanks for your kind words and I certainly didn't mean it's all doom and gloom either with no progression at all, because if such was the case the country would be in total ruins.

But everything is relative and the pace in which the progression is being made in relation to where the world stands and where the country with all it's resourses must be, doesn't look too well.

What I mean is more down to the individual level and the responsibilities and shortcomings we have as individuals in and towards the society.

We have never had the work ethics that for example the japanese have. We always put ourselves ahead in every situation, being too selfish to be able to function properly in a larger group and serve it right, even when it means benefiting from it at the end. But we usually don't like to think that long ahead and prefer short term profits.

Ofcourse one major reason is the lack of education and awareness which leads to being a tool in the hands of others. For god knows how many years have we blindly been lead and told what to do by big talkers with a beard and a cape, which is one of the only rare and unseen occasions we act as a group? Even other cultures have suffered from this, right, but many have put it behind them for hundreds of years, while we still continue to do so.
I would be very intrested to have the opportunity and time, to be able to compare big, ancient societies and cultures and their fate throughout the history in a more detailed level, because what I know about ourselves is that we've always lost many things throughout history due to treason from one of our own and this due to what I wrote above, the greed and selfishness of a few individuals leading to the demise of the rest and it still keeps happening over and over again. Our mentality has put us in an evil loop!

[maij]

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.