Professionalism!

[maij]

OK , I see what you mean. I respect your opinion about Dadkan , and I also believe he was a competent administrator , however, I see no evidence to suggest that he has over-turned football in Iran.

[gol_kuchik]

The problem is very simple, and it is not just ours but of many of older
cultures, and Football is just one small part where it hits you right in the face:

You either go by the rules, or bend the rules in the name of "expediency".
The problem is expediency has no definition, except it destroys order and coherence.
Lets take a look at Sepahan example: In order to accomodate AFC games,
(i.e expediency) they have postponed the domestic games of Sepahan to
unprecedented levels. In Europe, a team in this situation normally plays
3 games in a 10 day period. In our case the games are just piling up.
So now you have a team that is above the rules, because of special circumstances.
But can you imagine the shape IPL would be in, if
EsEs also made it? But why did they not even make it? Because the
coach was trying to ignore the rule and make an expedient decision to
put a roster together

This is exactly why people often think (mistakenly) the solution is some strong leader!
They take the exceptions to the rules for granted, and conclude the problem
to be Too many people making expedient decisions! Instead of saying No One
should be making expedient decision, they want only one person to make these
decisions.
No amount of saying: But if you had a law that everyone abided by, and
enforce it, there would be no need for all powerful head of this or that organization
goes through their head.

Of course the main problem with one strong guy at the top (as unfortunately
we have witnessed repeatedly in our history) is that they will eventually die
or lose their power and we are back to square one
Instead, we don't think about systems where most of us live in, where even
if the entire group of leaders are removed it won't make a dent say in their
football program. Because there is a system governed by rule and not expediency.

Professionalism comes from having rules and sticking by them. That's the
root of our problem.

[RaginG Inferno]

OK , I see what you mean. I respect your opinion about Dadkan , and I also believe he was a competent administrator , however, I see no evidence to suggest that he has over-turned football in Iran.

Sorry, again, maybe I was not clear enough.

What I meant was, that the transition from Dadkan to his successors demonstrated the importance of an effective head.

[maij]

Sorry, again, maybe I was not clear enough.

What I meant was, that the transition from Dadkan to his successors demonstrated the importance of an effective head.

On that , I certainly agree...

[maij]

Lets take a look at Sepahan example: In order to accomodate AFC games,
(i.e expediency) they have postponed the domestic games of Sepahan to
unprecedented levels. In Europe, a team in this situation normally plays
3 games in a 10 day period. In our case the games are just piling up.
So now you have a team that is above the rules, because of special circumstances.
But can you imagine the shape IPL would be in, if
EsEs also made it? But why did they not even make it? Because the
coach was trying to ignore the rule and make an expedient decision to
put a roster together

I had the same opinion on this subject. It is ridiculous to have a team with 4 or even 5 games behind the rest.

Tonight , in 90 program , Bonacic was asked by Ferdowsipour about the subject of his club being behind the rest and said that professional football in Europe such thing never happens! ( actually , that is not exactly accurate !)

Bonacic response was :

First of all , these decision are initiated bythe Chairman (Mr. Saket) and he negotiates this with IFF.

Second , he said this is Iran , not Europe , where a team can be in the furthest city within hours by a plane. Iran is a huge country probably bigger than the whole of Europe. Logistics and Transportation is is not up to the standard of Europe, for example lack of seats made us travel to Ahvaz ( or from, I am not sure!) by bus......There is no caparison in Logistics with Europe.

Third , I don't mind if my team plays 3 games in a week as well, but in that case others should also suffer the same fate. One team should not victimized for its success......

I tend o agree with Bonacic and Sepahan.......and for that I have changed my criticism about the schedule.....

[Doctor DOOM]

well, I think bonacic is making excuses for this disorganization.

granted the logistics and travels do influence a lot of things in our football. but at the same time, we must not forget most of such situations are solved by teams using their bench or reserves or even addition of some youth players to play the league and cup games.
yes, such teams usually face the risk of losing a couple of games by using an under-strenght team in league or cup games. but that is faced by ALL clubs everywhere and has become the norm. It is up to them to decide which games are more important and divide and manage their resources to the best possible method. which brings in the issue of management starting from coaches & bench to the club admin & officials.
hey. that's life and nobody said everything is fair in it.

this has to be enforced by IFF. it is not.
I think the new IFF ought to enforce such methods if they dont want further interferences and shame brought about our already infamous football.

[purple_haze]

I had the same opinion on this subject. It is ridiculous to have a team with 4 or even 5 games behind the rest.

Tonight , in 90 program , Bonacic was asked by Ferdowsipour about the subject of his club being behind the rest and said that professional football in Europe such thing never happens! ( actually , that is not exactly accurate !)

Bonacic response was :

First of all , these decision are initiated bythe Chairman (Mr. Saket) and he negotiates this with IFF.

Second , he said this is Iran , not Europe , where a team can be in the furthest city within hours by a plane. Iran is a huge country probably bigger than the whole of Europe. Logistics and Transportation is is not up to the standard of Europe, for example lack of seats made us travel to Ahvaz ( or from, I am not sure!) by bus......There is no caparison in Logistics with Europe.

Third , I don't mind if my team plays 3 games in a week as well, but in that case others should also suffer the same fate. One team should not victimized for its success......

I tend o agree with Bonacic and Sepahan.......and for that I have changed my criticism about the schedule.....

Well, first of all Ferdosipoor shouldn't have asked him about that matter, becasue he didn't have anything or any say about this matter, as it was IFF, Aliabadi or other decision makers who ruled this way and seriously what did he expect Bonacic to say? That this is not right and his team shouldn't get that advantage? Ofcourse he's gonna defend his team and grab this opportunity with open arms!
On the subject of this being Iran and not Europe he's absolutely right as there is no comparison in terms of organization and so forth.
But at the same time, one can not just go on thinking, well this is Iran we do everything wrong anyway so let's add this to it as well.
Maybe they should have used Brazil's league or Argentina's, or one of the south amercian countries leagues as an example, because they are big enough to be compared geographically and some of those countries, if not most of them, having a rather weak economy, often have the same transportation problems. So the logistics part can be very similar. The teams from those leagues also participate in both league, cup and their continental cup, copa libertadores. So the width of the country or long distances excuse is a bit off, BUT with Ferdosipoor giving Europe as an example for comparison, he had it coming.

As for the subject of him saying that other teams should also suffer the same fate, it's a rather lame excuse, because then all the teams in the league should either be league winners or cup winners and they all should be participating in ACL for that to realistically happen.
He should realize that there aren't any other continental competitions in Asia than ACL and up to this point Iran hasn't had more than 2 spots in ACL. So realistically no more than 2 teams from Iran would be involved and all the others can not suffer the same fate. His team has won one of the spots and done great, so with that comes bigger responsibility and challenge.
If it wasn't for the huge screw up of EsEs management and had they participated and advanced in ACL then they should've suffered the same fate too. What if EsEs had participated and advanced to the final stages? Would it then by that logic be justified to have 2 of the teams in the league trailing others by 5 games?

But as I said Ferdosipoor picked the wrong person to ask about this matter and Bonacic is entitled to answer every way he wants.

[gol_kuchik]

Well today I am in agreement with everyone

1-Why the heck is Ferdosipour asking Bonacic about IPL schedule?
2-Bonacic is correct that the lack of infrastructure in Iran, makes the travel
to some remote places look as if Iran is bigger than Europe (I doubt if he does
not know the fact, he is trying to get a point across).
3-What he did not say and could have said, is that even travel from Iran to
Japan is a 2 days activity considering time zone difference. A quick look at
the map and the entire Europe spans no more than 3 hours for most. Asia
on the other hand spans a good 10 hours, not to mention lack of direct flights.

(One solution here is to split Asia into two and only have the championship
games cross continent, remember Sepahan had to go through this travel
against Kawasaki as well). The point is, who is supposed to raise the impracticality
issue?

4-Having said that, Bonacic knows better that the winners in European league
have to have 2 A-teams. So as stated by all, it is incorrect to say everyone should
have the same schedule as Sepahan. Again, I don't think he is dumb. He says what he
says because he knows the huge financial rewards a team like AC-Milan or Barcelona
will enjoy should they win either their domestic or the European Championship. Last
I heard the Asian Champ will get a sweet $500,000 (if that). I don't even know what the
IPL winner will get. So you have to read between the line.

[maij]

All due respect.... there is nothing in the arguments posted against Bonacic or Sepahan/IFF that has made me change my opinion.

Why should IFF or Sepahan care about the league of Brazil , Russia , England or anywhere else for that matter ??? Logistics is a huge problem in Iran and that is an undeniable fact. IFF is not the government and not the absolute power to enforce airlines, the railway of transport system to cater for the league. So , it works around the problem and comes to a solution ( perhaps not to the satisfaction of every one)


Sepahan has at least 30 players in the roster , between 6-8 were involved in the Asian U16 and U19 qualifications. How many more players should they add just to cater for the Asian Championship league , IPL and jam Hazfi.....???

Who is going to pay for all that ??? Match Ticket sales ?? TV broadcast rights ??? Sales of merchandise ?? Advertising ???

I don't want to go through the same argument about comparing European league and Iran , there is simply NO comparison and there will never be when it comes to Finances and organization.

I believe that the league/IPL/Clubs should focus and concentrate on issues that they can realistically improve rather than issues that are way beyond their control.

Logistics are one such system that is way beyond them..........and for Sepahan protecting their interest , I raise my hat.

[purple_haze]

Well ofcourse they should protect their interest, that's what i said too.

...what did he expect Bonacic to say? That this is not right and his team shouldn't get that advantage? Ofcourse he's gonna defend his team and grab this opportunity with open arms!...

I only took Brazil and south amercian countries (not Russia or England) as an example to say that Ferdosipoor was wrong to ask Bonacic about this whole matter and even if he did he could've given an example more similar to the situation we have.

One of the elements and issues of being a competitive club, striving to reach the absolute top, is having to participate in various competitions and doing as good as possible. How many players Sepahan should and would use is their own concern. No pain no gain, as they say.

So in your opinion it's justified to disrupt the rythm of an already disorganized league? (which in reality affects other teams as well, not only Sepahan) Ok, well let me ask you this then. I already raised this issue in my previous post, but it may have went unnoticed. If next year, we get more spots, say 3 spots and all 3 of them advance, is it then ok to have 3 teams with 5 (or maybe more, because the way things look right now, Sepahan might have more postponed matches due to world club championships) matches postponed?

[maij]

So in your opinion it's justified to disrupt the rythm of an already disorganized league? (which in reality affects other teams as well, not only Sepahan)

If you are referring to me , then NO...I did not say that. I said I sympathies with Sepahan after hearing their side of story. If you understood otherwise , then my apologies.

Ok, well let me ask you this then. I already raised this issue in my previous post, but it may have went unnoticed. If next year, we get more spots, say 3 spots and all 3 of them advance, is it then ok to have 3 teams with 5 (or maybe more, because the way things look right now, Sepahan might have more postponed matches due to world club championships) matches postponed?

The same answer will apply , I will sympathize with Saipa and Sepahan and whoever...... That is not saying that I will like situation.

My solution is simple.

REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE.

I have said it before , this league structure is not suitable for 18 teams.
12 or Max 14 teams is good enough. That will reduce the burden on many clubs.

[purple_haze]

REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE.

I have said it before , this league structure is not suitable for 18 teams.
12 or Max 14 teams is good enough. That will reduce the burden on many clubs.

And you are absolutely correct. The elements, planing and fundaments of an 18-team league simply don't exist in our football yet.

[kaz]

I am not sure about this statement. Are you saying that ONE PERSON is required to save football in Iran ? ???? The only one that has such power is GOD.

NO......... to improve any system , you need collective efforts. In a company , no CEO can turn a huge loss into a profitable operation over-night profit. In football , there is no precedent in the history , that a single person and whatever post , has overturned a nation fortune. I doubt that there will be ever any case like that. ..... and it it ever happens, I will buy you a drink and apologize to you.

IT IS a cultural issue. Fans , players , administrators , media , coaches and the rest , have to upgrade their mentalities in order to progress. I have attended many many matches in Iran at club and international levels , and I tell you for sure that anyone who tells you that Iran has the best fans in the world ....is simply a lying....not even an exaggeration , but a lie.

Media : Anyone who can produce a "hashiye" news is a winner , not the one who produces the best analysis of the game!

Fans : One of the most "Charand" fans I have seen. Profanity is rife.....knowledge of football is disgrace ... loyalty to Perspolis & Esteghlal ten times more than Team Melli.

Players : Lack of professional attitude on and off the field. The minute they feel they are famous , they think they are the next Maradona or Beckenbauer !

Federation & clubs: Chaotic scheduling , poor management , lack of ethics , disrespect to contracts and many other shortcomings.

Coaches: again , lack of professional mentality. Many selections of players are based on loyalty rather than ability and skills.

Anyway , if you really look closely , you certainly will find that this is related to culture and people's behavior and mentality.

Don't get me wrong , not all the people are bad , on the other side of the fence there are some very good professionals and progressive persons in all those fields , but they are in the minority. Iran will progress if more people think professionally and behave ethically.

I think you just pretty much summed it up perfectly. All the factions and all their poisons. Unfortunately, we're too busy looking for the wrong fix or searching to make it simple and blame 1 person, 1 group and think all will be well once we get rid of that one entity. What makes it even more farcical, the year after that same entity is now the good guy, the others bad and so goes on this game of chiefs and indians where we never get to any real ground for improvement. We're moving in circles, just replacing the players.

[Paradigm]

One thing kept going through my mind almost during the whole match between Sepahan and Urawa. This IMO was the decisive factor, seperating the winner from the loser of this game. If you look at it deeper and more philosophically it probably boils down to more of a cultural thing.
Urawa won, not because Sepahan played bad or because they were so great, they won because they were more professional!
Their whole culture is based on unity and team work. They understand the meaning and importance of it. They have been brought up learning the value of working together and being humble. Even their fans are part of this whole unit going towards a single goal. Even they, being from the same culture play their part. They were not better individually. They were not spectacular, but they were simply what we Iranians are not and only pretend to be. They were professional.

On the other hand we have us iranians. Coming from a culture that almost only values individualism. We have this old saying "Yek Dast seda nadare" but that's just words that a very few of us truly understand and practice.
The biggest part of our society wants to shine individually. We have a bunch of "Setarehaye Kaghazi" (Paper stars) that go their own way, sometimes at the cost of the whole unit they should be serving. But I guess they can't be totally blamed since that's the way they are brought up.

Culturally,we probably are, if not the most, at least one of the most disorganized people on the face of this planet. When it comes to management, we fail 9 of 10 times.

We have a league called pro-league, yet you have to grab a microscope to find the tiniest track of professionalism in it.
From teams lacking facilities and proper pitches to players and coaches attitude.
We have coaches like Firooz Karimi in charge of educating a lot of our players and although he may be good technically, what kind of a role model is a person who is disloyal and has no respect for legal contracts, makes a mockery of the whole football system and gets away with it?

We have a none existent football federation who still after more than a year doesn't know it's head and instead of trying to maintain laws and trying to inject some professionalism into our league, they mess it up even more by giving special treatment to a team under the name of national interest, postponing way more games of that team that are legally allowed by professional standards, so that team can focus on winning the ACL.

This is what we call "Doostie khale kherseh"! The morons in charge think they were doing Sepahan a favor by doing this, but in reality they are not!
What Sepahan lacked, like all the iranian teams was professionalism and had they been competing in a professional environment, they would have stood much better chance to win the whole thing.
Now, like many times before, our short term planning (if you can call it planning) has backfired and once again we stand empty handed, having hurt our foundation, the league, in the process as well.

Great post. It identifies the problem, but can you offer a practical solution??

[purple_haze]

Great post. It identifies the problem, but can you offer a practical solution??

I wish I could but it's way too complicated and deep-rooted. I guess for starters there should be a checklist for each of us iranians as individuals:

- Discipline and work ethics are 2 things that we usually lack. This is the most important reason behind our chaotic management.
- We must learn to take responsibility for our actions instead of blaming it on the next best thing that we can come up with.
- We must understand and appreciate the value of unity and teamwork in all aspects of our lives.
- We have to learn to see beyond our own noses.
- We have to utilize the individual qualities of each other and help and support each other as opposed to trying to bring and pull each other down all the time as we iranians mostly do.

There are ofcourse more stuff that don't come to my mind so you are all more than welcome to add the missing bits.