Professionalism!

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan thanks for your kind words and I certainly didn't mean it's all doom and gloom either with no progression at all, because if such was the case the country would be in total ruins.
!

You are welcome and what I said wasn't Irani Taaroof. I really meant it.

But everything is relative and the pace in which the progression is being made in relation to where the world stands and where the country with all it's resourses must be, doesn't look too well.

What I mean is more down to the individual level and the responsibilities and shortcomings we have as individuals in and towards the society.


We have never had the work ethics that for example the japanese have. We always put ourselves ahead in every situation, being too selfish to be able to function properly in a larger group and serve it right, even when it means benefiting from it at the end. But we usually don't like to think that long ahead and prefer short term profits.
!

Of course everything is relative, but dada please consider the fact that a human being is in large part the product of its environment. For example let's look at the concept of Punctuality. For a farmer that can go anytime he wants to work and anytime he likes he can leave work, the whole concept of punctuality is hard to comprehend. For a guy who all his life worked in a factory and had to clock in right before say 8 AM or else he got fined, concept of punctuality is much easier to learn.

Or say collective work, again the same example, when you work on a production line where your work is a small piece of a production belt, you see with your own eyes that you need to work with others within a system. Comapre that to the owner a small shop or our earlier farmer example.

An American school kid since first grade realizes that at 8:05 school bus comes and picks him up and if he isn't there he will miss the bus. Do you see how the concept of punctuality is engrained in people since early childhood. Let's assume there was a similar system in Iran. Due to traffic or lack of planning or maintenance on the bus, school bus one day would have come at 8 anotehr day 8:10 etc. etc.

Do you see my point here? Our personality and culture in large part is being impacted by the social formation in our society. So we Iranians for the most part are the product of the social formation in Iran.

As for another example look at the Woman equality issue. The whole thing started when capitalisem needed woman to come out of the house and work in the factory. When they got moeny and economic independence they started to ask for more equal rights. So the whole women suffarge, equality and feminisem in large part started with teh changes in the social formation. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying feminist leaders and people had no role here. They had and all, but do you see the cause and effect here?

Ofcourse one major reason is the lack of education and awareness which leads to being a tool in the hands of others. For god knows how many years have we blindly been lead and told what to do by big talkers with a beard and a cape, which is one of the only rare and unseen occasions we act as a group? Even other cultures have suffered from this, right, but many have put it behind them for hundreds of years, while we still continue to do so.
I would be very intrested to have the opportunity and time, to be able to compare big, ancient societies and cultures and their fate throughout the history in a more detailed level, because what I know about ourselves is that we've always lost many things throughout history due to treason from one of our own and this due to what I wrote above, the greed and selfishness of a few individuals leading to the demise of the rest and it still keeps happening over and over again. Our mentality has put us in an evil loop!

Agree about education and everythign you said. However you should realize in 14-15 centruy when Printing technology was introdcued in Europe, it became a catalizor for knowledge transfer which led to progress and eventual renasiance in Europe. At that time, we as Iranian and rest of the countries in teh middle east (even Ottaman Empire) fall behind. We missed the Rennasiance, 200 years of religious wars between Catholics and Protestants which in a way paved the way for the seperation of church and state and eventually to the French reveloution.

Dada, when they say we are a less developed country, it is not just the size of the highrises and factories and technologies. It is even more, it is in the level of thinking and acting of individual memebers of our society. Religion, lack of independent thinking, disrespecting individual freedom, the way we treat our women, tolerance, etc. etc.

Sorry didn't mean to get all serious on you. I tried to show you that, all of these problems are part of the social science and it is nto like they came out of nothing.

[purple_haze]

Agree about education and everythign you said. However you should realize in 14-15 centruy when Printing technology was introdcued in Europe, it became a catalizor for knowledge transfer which led to progress and eventual renasiance in Europe. At that time, we as Iranian and rest of the countries in teh middle east (even Ottaman Empire) fall behind. We missed the Rennasiance, 200 years of religious wars between Catholics and Protestants which in a way paved the way for the seperation of church and state and eventually to the French reveloution.

Dada, when they say we are a less developed country, it is not just the size of the highrises and factories and technologies. It is even more, it is in the level of thinking and acting of individual memebers of our society. Religion, lack of independent thinking, disrespecting individual freedom, the way we treat our women, tolerance, etc. etc.

Sorry didn't mean to get all serious on you. I tried to show you that, all of these problems are part of the social science and it is nto like they came out of nothing.

No need at all Ali jan to be sorry, after all this is a serious discussion in F+ which is supposed to be a place for just that...more serious discussion and I thank you for your input and the opportunity for myself and many others to discuss and learn.
I agree with you on those points about us and the rest of the so called under developed countries falling behind as a result of what you mentioned.
The thing is living outside Iran brings the opportunity to meet people and ethnicities from different parts of the world and puts you in a more objective position so you can better observe and compare.
I have for many years seen and continue to see that in a foreign environment, other people and ethnicities support and back each other up, help each other making a collective effort which means they can survive and develope outside their home turf in a foregin society, while at the same time I see us iranians take the first best chance we get to stick it up to each other and stab each other in the back. While others back up and help each other climb, we trick and pull down one another for the sake of the slightest personal gain at the cost of another fellow contryman.
A very simple example reflecting the bigger picture is our gatherings and celebrations. I myself appart from my daily job as a computer tech also am a pro musician working with both iranian and non-iranain artists and during the many iranian concerts I've played at around the world, I've seen that you mostly can not have more than 10 different iranians gathered in one place without them starting to fight and make trouble!
While others gather to party and enjoy themselves, we even turn a joyful and entertaining even into a fight because of our disfunctional behaviour as a group and believe me when I say that in most cases even no alchohol is involved which would be the most contributing factor in these kinds of cases.

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.

Exactly Majid jan. Another annoying thing about our mentality apart from the usual "Bari be har jahat" and "sare ham bandi" is partly connected to what you are saying. The way we handle many things and among them even religion is hypocritical.
We have so many people with double standards, somehow caught in between. They drink, they commit adultery and do so many other things prohibited by their religion, only to turn into a strict religious character all of a sudden. Double standards exist anywhere and so does deception, but in the cases I mentioned it's kind of rooted and comes naturally to them. I personally have known many who really don't just pretend to be one or the other, but have both integrated into them co-existing naturally!
They practice many islamic and arabic laws without even really believing in them! The reason I'm saying arabic is because most if it was implemented and in reality works and suits best in those societies.

[Ali Chicago]

No need at all Ali jan to be sorry, after all this is a serious discussion in F+ which is supposed to be a place for just that...more serious discussion and I thank you for your input and the opportunity for myself and many others to discuss and learn.
I agree with you on those points about us and the rest of the so called under developed countries falling behind as a result of what you mentioned.
The thing is living outside Iran brings the opportunity to meet people and ethnicities from different parts of the world and puts you in a more objective position so you can better observe and compare.
I have for many years seen and continue to see that in a foreign environment, other people and ethnicities support and back each other up, help each other making a collective effort which means they can survive and develope outside their home turf in a foregin society, while at the same time I see us iranians take the first best chance we get to stick it up to each other and stab each other in the back. While others back up and help each other climb, we trick and pull down one another for the sake of the slightest personal gain at the cost of another fellow contryman.
A very simple example reflecting the bigger picture is our gatherings and celebrations. I myself appart from my daily job as a computer tech also am a pro musician working with both iranian and non-iranain artists and during the many iranian concerts I've played at around the world, I've seen that you mostly can not have more than 10 different iranians gathered in one place without them starting to fight and make trouble!
While others gather to party and enjoy themselves, we even turn a joyful and entertaining even into a fight because of our disfunctional behaviour as a group and believe me when I say that in most cases even no alchohol is involved which would be the most contributing factor in these kinds of cases.


.

I don't know your first name, so have to settle for Purple Haze Jaan. I totally agree with everything you said no argument there. My point was let's understand the cause and effect here. When one understands the underlying issue then he/she can at least explain to some degree why it is happening.
For example you mentioned that we are not working together, which is true. Having said that, you got to consider two things.

1- We iranians are a very young immigrant nation. Compare us to East Indians that for more than 300 years (at teh begining brought out by British colonists). They have learned as a nation after all this time it is better workding together. A lot of us still dream about one day going bacak and live in Iran (which I promise for most of us won't happen even if the current regime is gone). Nevertheles, the whole psychic of first generation Iranian immigrant is still different from most other immigrants. Iran was an independent country for more than 2200 years of its 2500 history. This makes us a very proud people. So even when we come to US or Europe, it is not like we have come to Heaven (if it is we don't want to admit it at least). comapre that with an immigrant from Pakistan, India or even Russia. When they come here, they proudly identify themselves as American, but to the date despite having a second citizenship most of us idenitfy ourselves as Iranian or Persian. This pride and nationalisem helped us to survive Arab's, Greec, Moguls, Ottaman invasions and withstand for most degree the overtake of Iran by Brits and Russians. So that pride that is with us, for most part, slows down our integration in the new country.

Second issue is the whole 1357 revolution. It is still a huge wedging issue for the first generation Iranians (like me). Some of us have nostalgy for the Pahalavi regime, some think it was a bad system, Mossadagh, oil nationalization, 1953 Coup de tat, ...... . People like you ( I assume you are younger than my generation here) and your generation who were born or at least raised outside Iran and dont' have the same baggage are much more immune to all these. Look at all the student organization of Iranians in the universites. They function very well at leaste comaprable with other ethnic students!!!

The other issue is neighbors grass is always greener. I played football with other ethnic teams (Chilean, El Salvador, Ecuador, Italians, Germans,....), beleive me, when you are inside you see they have more or less the same issues.

Can or should we do better? Of course we should. It all goes back to what I said in my first post. Time it takes to learn new behaviors and overcome old wounds of dictatorshiops that for most part has ruled Iran for 2500 years. We as a nation always were told what to do and if we didn't follow, we were severly punished. We as a nation haven't seen democracy (a few years here and there), so we haven't learned about personal responsibilty, tolerance, etc, etc. But give us time. If one characterisctics I consider specific to Iranian nation is it is our adaptability. We are proud and kick and scream, but we adapt well. Your and my grand paretns did the same thing to Arabs and Mogul rulers. In US at least, the Iranins are the amongst the most educated, most income , etc. etc among the immigrants. Give us time and we will improve in working togther as well. As you truly mentioned, we Iranian immigrants have a big responsibilty. To take these new ideas and new way of thinking back to our imprisoned comaptriots who are in a big prison called Iran right now. To let them see there are other ways. Internet, Sattelite TV broke the barriers and our comaptriots inside Iran see things. I am waiting for wind of change in Iran. It has already happened inside Iran. I would have never imagined a pop music concert or Philharmonic music group in Iran under the IRI regime. But it happened. Give us time and be patient. Change isn't happening as fast as we like, but change is happening.

[Ali Chicago]

One thing that I reject from the Persian culture is what I call "Worshiping and glorifying individuals" ...We always tend to look for heroes and leaders letting them decide our destiny and future.

In our culture , we still prefer for someone else to do the thinking and decision for us. We don't read the Quran but let Ayotollah folan folan interpret what is right and what is wrong for us although we can open the book ourselves and read.

During the old days with the literacy level being low , that would have been an acceptable practice , not anymore.

Same thing with political leaders and I dread to say , national heroes, we blindly follow them without using our own intelligence to decide if the man is talking sense or nonsense.

Glorifying individuals is an ancient practice that is still very much alive in this society. Human beings are elevated to sacred levels and by God , no one is perfect as the almighty.

Maij jaan,

Isn't this a human characteristics in genearl and nothing specifically Iranian? Look at Veladimir Putin in Russia today how all the Russian go ga ga over him. See Goergy Bush in America, how he was revered after Sep 11 and Mission Accompolished back ni 2003 to today. I think what u listed is a human being flaw rather than something specifically Iranian.

[purple_haze]

I don't know your first name, so have to settle for Purple Haze Jaan. I totally agree with everything you said no argument there. My point was let's understand the cause and effect here. When one understands the underlying issue then he/she can at least explain to some degree why it is happening.
For example you mentioned that we are not working together, which is true. Having said that, you got to consider two things.

1- We iranians are a very young immigrant nation. Compare us to East Indians that for more than 300 years (at teh begining brought out by British colonists). They have learned as a nation after all this time it is better workding together. A lot of us still dream about one day going bacak and live in Iran (which I promise for most of us won't happen even if the current regime is gone). Nevertheles, the whole psychic of first generation Iranian immigrant is still different from most other immigrants. Iran was an independent country for more than 2200 years of its 2500 history. This makes us a very proud people. So even when we come to US or Europe, it is not like we have come to Heaven (if it is we don't want to admit it at least). comapre that with an immigrant from Pakistan, India or even Russia. When they come here, they proudly identify themselves as American, but to the date despite having a second citizenship most of us idenitfy ourselves as Iranian or Persian. This pride and nationalisem helped us to survive Arab's, Greec, Moguls, Ottaman invasions and withstand for most degree the overtake of Iran by Brits and Russians. So that pride that is with us, for most part, slows down our integration in the new country.

Second issue is the whole 1357 revolution. It is still a huge wedging issue for the first generation Iranians (like me). Some of us have nostalgy for the Pahalavi regime, some think it was a bad system, Mossadagh, oil nationalization, 1953 Coup de tat, ...... . People like you ( I assume you are younger than my generation here) and your generation who were born or at least raised outside Iran and dont' have the same baggage are much more immune to all these. Look at all the student organization of Iranians in the universites. They function very well at leaste comaprable with other ethnic students!!!

The other issue is neighbors grass is always greener. I played football with other ethnic teams (Chilean, El Salvador, Ecuador, Italians, Germans,....), beleive me, when you are inside you see they have more or less the same issues.

Can or should we do better? Of course we should. It all goes back to what I said in my first post. Time it takes to learn new behaviors and overcome old wounds of dictatorshiops that for most part has ruled Iran for 2500 years. We as a nation always were told what to do and if we didn't follow, we were severly punished. We as a nation haven't seen democracy (a few years here and there), so we haven't learned about personal responsibilty, tolerance, etc, etc. But give us time. If one characterisctics I consider specific to Iranian nation is it is our adaptability. We are proud and kick and scream, but we adapt well. Your and my grand paretns did the same thing to Arabs and Mogul rulers. In US at least, the Iranins are the amongst the most educated, most income , etc. etc among the immigrants. Give us time and we will improve in working togther as well. As you truly mentioned, we Iranian immigrants have a big responsibilty. To take these new ideas and new way of thinking back to our imprisoned comaptriots who are in a big prison called Iran right now. To let them see there are other ways. Internet, Sattelite TV broke the barriers and our comaptriots inside Iran see things. I am waiting for wind of change in Iran. It has already happened inside Iran. I would have never imagined a pop music concert or Philharmonic music group in Iran under the IRI regime. But it happened. Give us time and be patient. Change isn't happening as fast as we like, but change is happening.

Ali jan, may first name is Afshin and thanks again for your enlightment and encouraging words. I guess the frustration over attributes I mainly see as iranian has gotten the better of me and weakend my faith.
Although I think there still are apparent flaws specific to us, but surely as you mention there are improvements too. It's just such a pity that the revolution has set us back for 1/4 century in most aspects, even if I unwillingly have to admit it has improved some minor aspects too.

[maij]

Maij jaan,

Isn't this a human characteristics in general and nothing specifically Iranian? Look at Veladimir Putin in Russia today how all the Russian go ga ga over him. See Goergy Bush in America, how he was revered after Sep 11 and Mission Accompolished back ni 2003 to today. I think what u listed is a human being flaw rather than something specifically Iranian.

I am not sure about the rest of the cultures, but at least the ones that I am closely associated with , I don't find such mentality in Europeans for example. Generalizing is of course , not very accurate , but from samples of people with differing backgrounds and social status , one can figure out the mentalities.


a little story
I was in Barcelona , Spain on my honeymoon in 1979 a few months after the revolution. I met a group of Iranians in the hotel and we started chatting. Although I normally try to avoid politics , but the Islamic revolution was too hot of a topic to avoid.

We definitely had differing opinions about the revolution with the Gentlemen and one of them kept saying that Ali Shariyati said this and Ali Shariyati said that...... I never heard of Shariyati , from the tone of his voice I thought that he is a religious leader or something. I promptly said , who is he ? Well........I felt that I have swore at his mother when I saw the reaction on their faces....!!!!! They were shocked that I don't know who Shariati was and never read his books....... !!!!!

I said to them decisively , I don't need to read a book of some leftist think tank to decide what is good or bad. God has given me enough intelligent to decide on my own , and I certainly do not form opinions by reading the thoughts of others , even if he was Socrates or Einstein. I am not a follower , I am a leader.

They were all bemused by my thoughts , and only one of them (out of 4) actually admitted that I have a valid point...the rest still wondering how come this Persian man has not read Ali Shariati

I advocate people judging by facts , observing , analyzing and then deciding for themselves and of course referring to relative materials for support and knowledge. Something we definitely lack in our culture.

[Ali Chicago]

I am not sure about the rest of the cultures, but at least the ones that I am closely associated with , I don't find such mentality in Europeans for example. Generalizing is of course , not very accurate , but from samples of people with differing backgrounds and social status , one can figure out the mentalities.


a little story
I was in Barcelona , Spain on my honeymoon in 1979 a few months after the revolution. I met a group of Iranians in the hotel and we started chatting. Although I normally try to avoid politics , but the Islamic revolution was too hot of a topic to avoid.

We definitely had differing opinions about the revolution with the Gentlemen and one of them kept saying that Ali Shariyati said this and Ali Shariyati said that...... I never heard of Shariyati , from the tone of his voice I thought that he is a religious leader or something. I promptly said , who is he ? Well........I felt that I have swore at his mother when I saw the reaction on their faces....!!!!! They were shocked that I don't know who Shariati was and never read his books....... !!!!!

I said to them decisively , I don't need to read a book of some leftist think tank to decide what is good or bad. God has given me enough intelligent to decide on my own , and I certainly do not form opinions by reading the thoughts of others , even if he was Socrates or Einstein. I am not a follower , I am a leader.

They were all bemused by my thoughts , and only one of them (out of 4) actually admitted that I have a valid point...the rest still wondering how come this Persian man has not read Ali Shariati

I advocate people judging by facts , observing , analyzing and then deciding for themselves and of course referring to relative materials for support and knowledge. Something we definitely lack in our culture.

Majid Jaan;

I heard you Majid Jaan. Europe's case is different. I would like to remind you the Europe went through inquisition and 200 years of religious wars, 2 world wars. If you read my lengthy 2 other posts, I tried to argue that all these events that occured in Europe and not in Iran made us what we are.
But as I mentioned to Afshin (purple haz), my personal experience with other nationalites who are more or less at the same level of development as our country more or less, they have the same flaws you mentioned.

[maij]

Dorosteh Ali Jan...... But why we take the negative experience of people and cultures???? Why we do not benefit from the bright and the positive sides of others ?

South Africa , a beautiful country with huge resources and rich culture , is infested with crime and social problems, why we should not learn from their experience of fighting apartheid and their marvelous struggle to win their freedom , rather than saying they are a bunch of con artists, thieves and dangerous people to deal with ???

Granted that other cultures have their problems , but that is not an excuse for a nation such as Iran with historically the richest culture in the world and wealth of human resources that has excelled in science , literature and human rights well before many nations even knew what these words mean , to act as we are doing now.

I very much sympathize with what Afshin is saying. I have constantly experienced it and I beleive that change of mentalities is tottaly absolutely for progress of this nation.

Ba drood.

[zzgloo]

Interesting exchanges by you all !!..............
Can I just jump in with my bare foot ??!!
To look at these issues,we need to step back,and see others,and how they do things....
The Africans, in general..are in deeper predicament than we are....some of them wish,the white people still would have colonized them...as they are just killing themseleves, and have no sence of progress,and far behind....

The latin America,is mostly a culture of ,"no culture"...although intelegent, but coruption, Drugs,sex, alcohol,dance, music,is more in thier thought,than progress,and had Europeans not set a democratic foundations for them, they would have been even in worse shap.

The Asians, under influence of Budism,and and thier own culture,are calm,and in general very conformist , ( perhaps,with some exceptions )...but,they are not very opinionated people in general.

The Europeans, although rich in culture, but ,arrogance and racism has dominated most thier cultures,as thier imperilist past,and racist wars, damaged thier cultures.

Americans,like most residents of American continenet,lack culture,yet,thier European civilization,and religon ,and Irish back ground in the begginings,has kept them more modest than Europeans, yet theire absolute capitalism has kept thier people in dark,about the world.

In Iran, also, The long history og persian Impire,and excesive poetry,and litrture ( we have more poets than the whole world combined ),has influnced the culture,and given it a false arrogance, and believe of " we know better ", and "" EDDEAA ".Although, we as a nation, are smart pepole,because of those past history as well.

[purple_haze]

......In Iran, also, The long history og persian Impire,and excesive poetry,and litrture ( we have more poets than the whole world combined ),has influnced the culture,and given it a false arrogance, and believe of " we know better ", and "" EDDEAA ".Although, we as a nation, are smart pepole,because of those past history as well.

Exactly! Couldn't have said it better myself. It has always puzzled me how much exessive arrogance we iranians usually have. As we say in persian "yek ghatar EDDEAA darim".

[Doctor DOOM]

becoz we hark back to 10 to 20 centuries back to boast about something !!
and that makes us look ridiculous.

"persian empire". "cyrus the great". "dariush the conqueror", .... !!!
till when are we going to rely on a 1000 yr old achievement?
what about NOW?
what do we have NOW?
what have we done NOW?

although, having said that, I must say we do reasonably well in scientific ventures, given the amount of brains that have left Iran.
but even this, does not justify our massive ego !


even all that poetry and gol o bolbol is not exactly of today's.
( and btw, lets face it. we are a "soft" people. all poetry and literature and beauty, ... .
melancholic poet , getting drunk in some baagh, served by pretty young things ! very soft, I say !!
how on earth Bush thinks we're gonna attack anyone?
what? we're gonna throw our wine bottles at them? ... to permanently stain their cloths? OOOOOOOoo! We're scary ! )

[Ali Chicago]

I very much sympathize with what Afshin is saying. I have constantly experienced it and I beleive that change of mentalities is tottaly absolutely for progress of this nation.

Ba drood.

I totally agree Majid Jaan. That change of mentality has to happen. But what I am arguing is the mere fact that change of mentality is the result of time and social formation (please read my first post about the punctuality, farmer, woman equality etc.).

These habits and cultural issues are effect not the cause.

[Ali Chicago]

Exactly! Couldn't have said it better myself. It has always puzzled me how much exessive arrogance we iranians usually have. As we say in persian "yek ghatar EDDEAA darim".

True, but the same Edda at historical points kept our country independent mind you Afshin Jaan. I am not saying our EDDA is good, but again our EDDa is the effect of long history we got not the cause.

During the 16-17th century this kept us standign against Ottamn Empire. Later against Tzarist Russia and Biritish and lately during the Iran Iraq war where Iran pretty much single handedly stood against Iraq's aggression.

PLus, if you look we Iranians have led the progress in the Asia. First constitutional reveloutin in 1907. Oil Nationalization movement in 1947. Even today our people are fightign tooth and nail against Islamic Theocracy. Look at how our nation responded to 9/11 event Vs. how majoirty of middle Easterners did. Compare us even with Turks (who consider themselves European and how they treated Armenian. In Iran while natioanl minorities are discriminated againt, overall there hasn't been atrocities the way in that scale against Turks or Kurds).
Again, I am not saying it is good, but I saying look at the root cause not the symptoms.

becoz we hark back to 10 to 20 centuries back to boast about something !!
and that makes us look ridiculous.

"persian empire". "cyrus the great". "dariush the conqueror", .... !!!
till when are we going to rely on a 1000 yr old achievement?
what about NOW?
what do we have NOW?
what have we done NOW?

although, having said that, I must say we do reasonably well in scientific ventures, given the amount of brains that have left Iran.
but even this, does not justify our massive ego !


even all that poetry and gol o bolbol is not exactly of today's.
( and btw, lets face it. we are a "soft" people. all poetry and literature and beauty, ... .
melancholic poet , getting drunk in some baagh, served by pretty young things ! very soft, I say !!
how on earth Bush thinks we're gonna attack anyone?
what? we're gonna throw our wine bottles at them? ... to permanently stain their cloths? OOOOOOOoo! We're scary ! )

DD jaan, even today, Iran is a power in the region. Despite all the shortcoming of the Theocratic government in Iran, Iran is looking at other countries in the region to sell its products and export techonlogy and know how (despite the sanctions).

Even the mere fact that you yourself have such a high expectation from Iran should tel u something. Comapre yourself with other minorities in the US. Where they come here and totally forget their roots and want to get melted in this so called melting pot.

Iran has risen always. Under Moguls, Arabs, Brits, Tzarist Russia, Alexander. We always found a way. We will find a way against the Islamist Fascits as well. It takes time maybe 50 years maybe more maybe less. Deer ya zood dareh valley sookt va sooz nadareh.

[zzgloo]

True, but the same Edda at historical points kept our country independent mind you Afshin Jaan. I am not saying our EDDA is good, but again our EDDa is the effect of long history we got not the cause.
During the 16-17th century this kept us standign against Ottamn Empire. Later against Tzarist Russia and Biritish and lately during the Iran Iraq war where Iran pretty much single handedly stood against Iraq's aggression.
PLus, if you look we Iranians have led the progress in the Asia. First constitutional reveloutin in 1907. Oil Nationalization movement in 1947. Even today our people are fightign tooth and nail against Islamic Theocracy. Look at how our nation responded to 9/11 event Vs. how majoirty of middle Easterners did. Compare us even with Turks (who consider themselves European and how they treated Armenian. In Iran while natioanl minorities are discriminated againt, overall there hasn't been atrocities the way in that scale against Turks or Kurds).
Again, I am not saying it is good, but I saying look at the root cause not the symptoms.
DD jaan, even today, Iran is a power in the region. Despite all the shortcoming of the Theocratic government in Iran, Iran is looking at other countries in the region to sell its products and export techonlogy and know how (despite the sanctions).
Even the mere fact that you yourself have such a high expectation from Iran should tel u something. Comapre yourself with other minorities in the US. Where they come here and totally forget their roots and want to get melted in this so called melting pot.
Iran has risen always. Under Moguls, Arabs, Brits, Tzarist Russia, Alexander. We always found a way. We will find a way against the Islamist Fascits as well. It takes time maybe 50 years maybe more maybe less. Deer ya zood dareh valley sookt va sooz nadareh.

Ali Jaan, I am not sure our persian empire,and gloriouse past is the cause of our " EDDEAA ".......
China, Eygpt,Ethiupia,....had similar past as well.....
The issue,is very complicated...as it has something to do,with, socio-psycological-historical phenomina..................

One may ask,...............

1- Why in all sports, we are Good,at wrestling ? wieght-lifting ?.....which belong to individuals with EDDEEA..

2-Why,we have so many poets,? and evey body seem to want to teach others.?.......which is indicative of individuals with EEDDEAA..

3- Why,our good manner,is just a front,and we want others to guess ?,and forigners have hard time figuring us out.?

4-Why , turkish culture,has similar charactoristics?" EDDEEAA,and all ?, they also are good in wrestling and wieght lifting ?!!

..................................
The point is not to put down our own culture, which as you indicated,has lots of positive aspects as well............the point is, are all these,realistic,and helpful ?...in today's global world ?

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Jaan, I am not sure our persian empire,and gloriouse past is the cause of our " EDDEAA ".......
China, Eygpt,Ethiupia,....had similar past as well.....
The issue,is very complicated...as it has something to do,with, socio-psycological-historical phenomina..................
One may ask,...............

Bahram Jaan,
How do you measure these things (EDDEA thing)? How do you measure that we Iranian have more EDDEA than Chineese or Egyptions. When I was in Korea back in late90s they hate Japaneese (in big part due to the WWII occupation of Korea by Japan and Japanees atrocities). They kept telling me they are competing with Japan and this and that and I thought to myself what a BS. Japan is leaps and bounds ahead of you. Look today. Korea is pushing further. So Korean's have EDDEA too?

EDDEA to certiani level at the ambition level is good. On the contrary in our Iranian culture, modesty is promoted heavily. Even in our taaroff we have terms like "koocheeke shoma hastam, mokhlesam, chakeram". In English greeting you dont' see similar terms? Among Iranians there are many people who have EDDEA many are without EDDEA. Unless there is a scientific polling done that shows me this EDDEA thign among Iranians are way higher than other nationalities, I wouldnt' accept it is more prevelent among us than others.

Part of this EDDEA comes from teh fact that we don't like to be treated like third world less developed conutries. Even shah despite being supported by America and all, talked about "those with green eyes can't tell us what to do" Remember he sold Gas to USSR and bought military equipments from former USSR and steel industry friom USSR when American and westerneres refused to give us the steel technology.
Islamic Republic with its no west no East followed the same path in a different way of course. The point is we Iranians know we need and should do better and not happy with where we are, so maybe some of us masquarading it with a bit EDDEA (which is the wrong manner).

1- Why in all sports, we are Good,at wrestling ? wieght-lifting ?.....which belong to individuals with EDDEEA..

Iran recently has been succesful in Volleyball (world stage) and Basketball (Asain level). Both are team sports and when there was a good orgnization and time taken to develope we were succesful. Eariler I posted about Volleyball how the Serb coach went and gatehred talent at the Rahnamyee school levels. Volleyball isnt' in the eyes like football, so there is time to develope. Football is a different stroy.

2-Why,we have so many poets,? and evey body seem to want to teach others.?.......which is indicative of individuals with EEDDEAA..

We have so man poets because we were among the most civilized people on the Earth where Europeans were nothing. In Pasargad we had libarary that Arabs and Alexander burnt our libraries when they caputured Iran. Having peots is nothing bad. Furthermore, many of these poets that we consider Iranian are part of the so called Islamic empire. Many of them lived in the land that isn't part of Iran today. So the commonality is Persian language since they wrote poetry in Farsi.
Plus at that time, there was no Renaisence in Europe and no industrial revolution, so intellectual power was directed toward poetry and literature.

3- Why,our good manner,is just a front,and we want others to guess ?,and forigners have hard time figuring us out.?

These are individual traits. How do you generalize like this Baharm jaan. Can you say 1 million Iranian comapred to 1 million East Indians are harder to figure out?

4-Why , turkish culture,has similar charactoristics?" EDDEEAA,and all ?, they also are good in wrestling and wieght lifting ?!!


..................................
The point is not to put down our own culture, which as you indicated,has lots of positive aspects as well............the point is, are all these,realistic,and helpful ?...in today's global world ?

Turks have a similar socio econmic and development past as Iran, and I am not surpirsed there are a lot of similiarites between the two conutries.
I am not saying everything in Iran is good or great. I am saying we need to understand why things are like this. The lack of deomcracy and individual rights have made us "hard to figure" as you put it. In our culture the group has priority over individual, which I think is a good thing overall. Still we need to allow individual rights to grow and group dont' suppress individuals.

All of these human rights and individual rights and environement and equality of sexes you see in the west didnt' come all of a sudden. These are results of the struggles for 2 centries of European masses. Iran and middle East missed the whole Print machine by Gothenberg and Renansience and Indsutrial reveloution. We fell behind. We need to realize this and stop self admonishing. This is a culutre of a defeated people. Self admonishment and blame ourselves for everything. While we realize our shortcomings and need to work on them, we need to realize:
1- It takes time (100s of years to over come this).
2- See the cause not the effect
3- learn from other people and don't reinvent the wheel.