Coaching, Iran and TM

[maij]

aaghaa Maij, spending money on shelters, roads, for the poor etc. is a must, no doubt about it. I am definitely not supporting to cut the money from the poor and give it to a foreign coach.

The thing is that people in a country have different needs and life has different aspects. That is why every country allocates budget for entertainment and spends it on cinemas, theaters, parks, etc. If our country had only $2mil money and we wanted to decide whether to spend it for the poor or hire a foreign coach for football, I would agree with you. $2mil for our country is like 3 cents out of everybody's pocket, and I think is well worth it if we can spend it on something that the majority of the people have passion for. There will still be plenty of money to spend for the poor if we really want to.

Just as an sports example, how much money does the government give the useless clubs such as RahAhan and Saba who have absolutely no fans and very little income for just ganging in the IPL? Or as an another example, IR has recently adopted a new policy to spend more on the championship sports to increase the number of medals in the international competitions. They think it is a good advertise for the country. And note that the money is spent for just a few selected athletes and not for the whole country. Why not reduce these budgets and give it to the sports that people like the most?

I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

[TM-Fan]

I think you will agree with me that money well spent on sport will make a lot of people happy including football fans like you and me. That is not the argument, it is:
a- Whether 2 million dollar coach can improve TM and up to what extent?
b- Whether 2 million dollars should be channeled elsewhere in the system, like youth development or coaching classes?

About your first question, I think the answer is definitely positive. I have two reasons. First look at the best football countries in Asia, countries like Japan, Korea, SA and even Australia. They all hire foreign coaches as they think it works better for them. I don't see why it can work for them and not for us. I also don't think they all are doing the wrong thing. My second reason is the comparison between our own performances during the last two Asian Cups with foreign and Iranian coaches, and still Branko was not even a $1mil foreign coach. Also look how much a decent coach like Ivic improved our TM.

About your second question, I think a country with $80b sales from oil can afford to pay $2m to a her national football coach, and still have the money to spend on youth and football clubs. Of course considering the amount of popularity of football among the people. This is just my own opinion.

[zzgloo]

IMHO,......
Niether "foundation first ",approach would help us,...
Nor ," watching our expenses " approach.........................
The " parrallel approach" may be more practical !!

1-Islamic republic,who spends billions on a fony Nuclear energy,to no avail, and spend millions on hamas, jahad,hezbullah,Iraq,etc,etc,........obviuosly,has no sence of proyorities in mind,and its waisting the wealth of a nation in rediculus magnitude.................we as football fans, are not responsible to help the islamic regim, as the nation itself wants us to have the money than the hezbullah.

2- Lenin,used to say, "quantity is more important than quality" !!, and see where Soviets ended up............... , latin countries are example of a countries with imbalance of proyorities,and so are many other countries..........., in todays economy, you have to " fake it,till you make it " !!!


Football, has history and culture of its own,and can,and should develop regardless of a country's industrial development..........it is food for the " SOLE " of a nation,it is poepole's aspiration !, it is hope ,it is what a world need, a world without borders, a world that wants to be united !,a world that does not devalue a set of people , just because they make less money,or have internal problems !

[maij]

About your first question, I think the answer is definitely positive. I have two reasons. First look at the best football countries in Asia, countries like Japan, Korea, SA and even Australia. They all hire foreign coaches as they think it works better for them. I don't see why it can work for them and not for us. I also don't think they all are doing the wrong thing. My second reason is the comparison between our own performances during the last two Asian Cups with foreign and Iranian coaches, and still Branko was not even a $1mil foreign coach. Also look how much a decent coach like Ivic improved our TM.

Hiring Foreign coaches .....Well so does Bangladesh , Thailand , China , Guam , Sri Lanka and virtually the whole of AFC countries...Now , how come these countries do not win championships? can you give the reasons why employing them does not work too well for them ?
It is a myth to think that hiring a coach of high level will guarantee you success. if it was that simple , Arab teams would have been World Cup winners every four years.

Success in football is much more than what money can buys.

About your second question, I think a country with $80b sales from oil can afford to pay $2m to a her national football coach, and still have the money to spend on youth and football clubs. Of course considering the amount of popularity of football among the people. This is just my own opinion.

It is NOT the matter that if they can afford it or not , it is matter of priorities and necessities.
If I have 2 million in my bank , I wont go and buy an executive jet because I can afford...that is total waste of money.

Now , on your argument about the government providing or subsidizing entertainment for the people. Great idea , but why should it be confined to Football fans? Not every Iranian is a football fan , but almost 3/4 of the younger population , especially girls , love going to cinema , why not subsidize their entertainment if government is willing to spend on football ? These people are Iranians and entitled to support as well as football fans. Why not buy tickets for cinema goers as well?

I think you caught my drift....once again , it is a matter of priorities..

[TM-Fan]

Hiring Foreign coaches .....Well so does Bangladesh , Thailand , China , Guam , Sri Lanka and virtually the whole of AFC countries...Now , how come these countries do not win championships? can you give the reasons why employing them does not work too well for them ?
It is a myth to think that hiring a coach of high level will guarantee you success. if it was that simple , Arab teams would have been World Cup winners every four years.

Success in football is much more than what money can buys.



It is NOT the matter that if they can afford it or not , it is matter of priorities and necessities.
If I have 2 million in my bank , I wont go and buy an executive jet because I can afford...that is total waste of money.

Now , on your argument about the government providing or subsidizing entertainment for the people. Great idea , but why should it be confined to Football fans? Not every Iranian is a football fan , but almost 3/4 of the younger population , especially girls , love going to cinema , why not subsidize their entertainment if government is willing to spend on football ? These people are Iranians and entitled to support as well as football fans. Why not buy tickets for cinema goers as well?

I think you caught my drift....once again , it is a matter of priorities..

I mentioned those countries, as they are similar to Iran in terms of level of the national teams and the level of their local coaches which result from their and our relatively short football history and exposure to the international football.

I brought an example the other time and I repeat here. Football has recently developed into a complicated technique because of the money that is involved. In a way, we can compare a football coach to an engineer. You cannot train a bunch of electrical engineer in Iran's universities and expect them to design, say, a DVD player for you. You cannot teach them those techniques by sending them to short term trainings abroad either. They will need extensive experience for years in a high tech company to learn the details of the design. Alternatively, you can hire a few experts from abroad and in the process Iranian engineers will also learn from them during the years. Same goes about our football coaches as well.

About the second part, of course it is a matter of priority. In your previous post, you mentioned why not spend the $2m on roads and the poor. What I was trying to say was that in my opinion, football is important enough to get $2m for coach as so many people in Iran have passion about it.

[maij]

Sorry TM Fan Jan...

I really don't agree with your line of thinking . You said football has recently developed into a complicated technique. I have not noticed any huge technical improvement in football, I think you mean commercial aspect of it. But when you start comparing a football coach to an Engineer or a Doctor or any such profession , then you have certainly missed the plot.

There is no way a leisure or entertainment personnel could have acquired the requirement of a professional. But that is drifting from the subject.

About the passion of Iranians for football , how did you figure out that ?
The last match in Azadi was attended by less than a 1000 fans and previous matches did not have much of attendance. Now compare that to the number of Cinema goers in Iran.... You will get an idea where the passion lies.

Also , whenever I see an official wrestling tournament in Iran , the arena is normally always full. wrestling as you know , is the ranked as top sport medal winner and single handedly brought glory to this nation , then comes Weight-lifting.

So....Even this football passion is questionable.

[Doctor DOOM]

it actually does not negate!
getting on with good footwork for the youth IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

but arent you actually making the case for a foreign coach here?
you effectively said having the likes of luka, vingo, ... is good footwork.

That is exactly what I have been saying.

the only scenario I can understand that is applicable is when we try to hire EXPENSIVE TOP GRADE coaches.
then , in that case, even I agree, such hirings dont necessarily return the proportionate investment and expenditure.

That's why I always said we can afford to hire good B grade coaches who fit within our budget and still be good enough to help us. that seems more proportionate to me.

if we totally want to save that money ( of hiring farangi coaches ), then we ought to be happy with the likes of GN, Dr. Z, derakhshan, doosti, ... and if they fail ( which lets face it, by all probabilities, WILL happen ) we shd NOT say a word or hold THEM accountable for "failing".



============

and I didnt say lets "just" get a farangi coach.
I did say the parallel approach which means WHILE we tend to the highly vital infrstrutral needs, we must NOT stay away from other aspects of football such as hiring and injecting good pro attitude and training ( in shape of farangi coaches ).


=================

I ask you all once again.
you all know IRI.
you all know how things do NOT get done.
you all know Iran has been suffering from dire fundamental and basic lacks, football no different from any other issue.
have they done anything to mend, repair, boost, build .... all these shortcomings & lacks?
NO.

so based on what history are we to sit and wait for IRI to "repeat" something that has never even initiated before ?


your approaches are extremely noble and correct.
I absolutely agree.
.... BUT WHEN IT COMES TO A COUNTRY LIKE JAPAN, USA, ... where rule of law exists and the gov';t WORKS for betterment of its nation, ppl, society, ... etc.
I ask you, IS IRI SUCH A GOV'T?

what is the guarantee that the 2 mill saved from hiring ... say, santini or X or Y, and putting the likes of GN or MK, will be used to build that much needed stadium in X city or town that desperately needs this infrastructural entity?
NO GUARANTEE.
but it is safe to say not only that stadium will NOT be built, but the money will be forgotten day after tomorrow !

yes, this approach is correct, durable and imminently sound. but it wont work in IRI.

so now we have 2 options:
either sit for the improbable and impossible to happen. and we sit and sit and sit some more. till grass grows under our feet.
or we push and hope for some sort of movement in this direction, but not forget other aspects of football AT THE SAME TIME.

--------------------
we saved a lot of money using GN and MK and shahrokhi and ... instead of the likes of ciro, denizli, santini , ... .
yes, most of those farangis didnt achieve much or very few of them did.
but almost ALL the vatani guys failed.

would you take the 20-30% success rate of farangi coaches or the 2% success rate of vatani ones?



the third option is pin our hope in IRI ( futile, to my opinion. but lets just "assume" the impossible becomes possible ) and do NOT expect anything positive for the next 8-10 years.
how many of you, my friends, are ready to accept and swallow losses to teams like qatar, syria, iraq, uzbeks, china, ... CONSTANTLY , for the next 10 years , since we will be in the investment and development mode, not a functioning and competitive one ????

will you hold off from complaining and criticizing the players, staff, TM, ... for the next 10 years NO MATTER WHAT ?

( absolute WORST CASE SCENARIO: I'd rather see us boast we have a well known , famous football coach at TM who charges 2 mill even if he doesnt deliver, than see that 2 mill in the pockets of mother effing terrorists in lebanon, syria, and god knows where else, giving ALL of Iran a miserable name. not that our own gov't isnt doing a "fine" job at that !!! )


there is, however, a fourth option too:
we say screw football and sports and generally most NON-essential matters such as sports, and lets all spend all that money ( not only hiring coaches, but also holding games, meetings, camps, traning, schools, stadia, trips, tours, facilities, ..... EVERYTHING ) on making roads, providing drinking water, building distilleries, schools, hospitals, .... for ppl in Iran.
you dont get MORE noble than this.

but then again, why are we in such a forum?
why not have such discussions in the general forum and close off all sports ( not only football, coz I say hospitals and schools are more important than volleyball, waterpolo, basketball, .... also ) fora and have only political and social discussion boards?

becoz we know sports, and especially football, is just of the very few and rare commodities the oppressed Iranians have as a source of cheer and jubilation in their miserable and bleak lives.
now, lets see if they agree to hold off all this for another 8-10 years on a promise ( how probable ? ) of development and fixing of our fundamental and basic aspects first ?

[perspolees]

lets now go back to the real issue
baba koodom chesh abi baraye tm
thats as paralel the efforts for our football will go..actually THE ONLY POINT DONE HAS BEEN HIRING FOREIGN COACHES AND NO INFRASTRUCTURE..WHAT PARALLEL!!

try to see and use examples
what decent world footballing country went after foreign coaches before it had pitches!!
baba aghlam onsore sharifist! one example one success story of how a ferrari could be brought onto zameen khaki to improve driving!!

in khar ya oon, ta infrastructure behesh dast nazadan ab az ab takoon nemeekhore...az seen in the past 6 years on this board khar hamoon khare paloonesh avaz shode...

[Doctor DOOM]

lets now go back to the real issue
baba koodom chesh abi baraye tm
thats as paralel the efforts for our football will go..actually THE ONLY POINT DONE HAS BEEN HIRING FOREIGN COACHES AND NO INFRASTRUCTURE..WHAT PARALLEL!!
try to see and use examples
what decent world footballing country went after foreign coaches before it had pitches!!
baba aghlam onsore sharifist! one example one success story of how a ferrari could be brought onto zameen khaki to improve driving!!
in khar ya oon, ta infrastructure behesh dast nazadan ab az ab takoon nemeekhore...az seen in the past 6 years on this board khar hamoon khare paloonesh avaz shode...

... and once again I ask:

there were periods where we hired MK, shahrokhi, GN, .... a lot of vatani coaches and stayed away from "chesh aabi" farangis. right ? But lets see how that money saved and how efforts diverted from farangi selection were put to use on infrastructure !
hmm .... the answer is a clear and resounding NONE !

if we lived in some delusional imaginary la-la-land, ... yes, I'd agree the money saved WOULD be used to further our fundamentals and basic needs.
oh ... but wait. we're NOT living in la la land. and IRI does NOT react as we want them to, or as logic dictates, or as they shd as if they cared about our infrastructure !!
almost 30 years of experience behind this.

so we will use our "onsor-e sharif" and put 2 and 2 together. if we hire some blue eyed fellow, our officials and powers that be will be wasting that money which could be used elsewhere.
then we stop hiring blue eyes and hire our own black eyes. what do the officials do?
NOTHING !
is that money saved diverted towards our needs?
NO.

hmmm.... I'm beginning to see there's NO co-relation between hiring of coaches and officials' lack of interest in building a foundation for our football.
anyone else sees that too?

I'm afraid you answer is right there in front of you:
when a set of officials fail to even get their own act straight and do a simple job of appointing a coach for a whole YEAR, how can you expect them to do the much tougher, complicated task of building infrastructure in Iran?
do you not follow what's been happening in Iran .... for the past 30 years?
do you actually see these ppl do what you expect them to do?
have they done so before ?
do you think they'll follow logic and norms of the rest of the world?

[zzgloo]

lets now go back to the real issue
baba koodom chesh abi baraye tm
thats as paralel the efforts for our football will go..actually THE ONLY POINT DONE HAS BEEN HIRING FOREIGN COACHES AND NO INFRASTRUCTURE..WHAT PARALLEL!!
try to see and use examples
what decent world footballing country went after foreign coaches before it had pitches!!
baba aghlam onsore sharifist! one example one success story of how a ferrari could be brought onto zameen khaki to improve driving!!
in khar ya oon, ta infrastructure behesh dast nazadan ab az ab takoon nemeekhore...az seen in the past 6 years on this board khar hamoon khare paloonesh avaz shode...

perspolees e aziz.......................
The situation in Iran, is too far a part to even have a hope for any kind of improvement in near future ( next 20 years )......what do you suggest we do in next 20 years ?

[zzgloo]

May be , just may be, haveing delayed so much to assign a coach for TM, is not that bad !!!!!


The IFF,was in shamble,and elections were going on.
There so much push to find some body,anybody,to coach.
Some other countires were looking for head coaches,and market was hot.
The new forign coach can not be so much help for the early round any way.
More search,can not hurt.
If our TM,can not qualify in these early round,by a domestic coach,...niether we are any good, nor our domestic coach could even be considered for better jobs.
The poletical climet of anti Iran,has subsided a little.
The new IFF , is better prepared.
The selecton of forign coach is decieded and voted by all decision makers,so there will not be a anti-forign coach campain.
the new coach,will have some base,and videos of TM selection,and can add some minimal number of players,if not satisfied with some positions.
There is better understanding the amount of money IFF is allocating for the new coach.
The atmospher is a little more calmer.hence,less presaure.

[perspolees]

... and once again I ask:

there were periods where we hired MK, shahrokhi, GN, .... a lot of vatani coaches and stayed away from "chesh aabi" farangis. right ? But lets see how that money saved and how efforts diverted from farangi selection were put to use on infrastructure !
hmm .... the answer is a clear and resounding NONE !

if we lived in some delusional imaginary la-la-land, ... yes, I'd agree the money saved WOULD be used to further our fundamentals and basic needs.
oh ... but wait. we're NOT living in la la land. and IRI does NOT react as we want them to, or as logic dictates, or as they shd as if they cared about our infrastructure !!
almost 30 years of experience behind this.

so we will use our "onsor-e sharif" and put 2 and 2 together. if we hire some blue eyed fellow, our officials and powers that be will be wasting that money which could be used elsewhere.
then we stop hiring blue eyes and hire our own black eyes. what do the officials do?
NOTHING !
is that money saved diverted towards our needs?
NO.

hmmm.... I'm beginning to see there's NO co-relation between hiring of coaches and officials' lack of interest in building a foundation for our football.
anyone else sees that too?

I'm afraid you answer is right there in front of you:
when a set of officials fail to even get their own act straight and do a simple job of appointing a coach for a whole YEAR, how can you expect them to do the much tougher, complicated task of building infrastructure in Iran?
do you not follow what's been happening in Iran .... for the past 30 years?
do you actually see these ppl do what you expect them to do?
have they done so before ?
do you think they'll follow logic and norms of the rest of the world?

again :

I always say you EITHER have to have a rock solid original plan for success, something that we all seem to agree we cannot and will not have in Iran!! for our footballing success OR be a good copy cat nation and use other success stories and experience...
what decent world footballing country went after foreign coaches before it had pitches!!baba aghlam onsore sharifist! one example one success story of how a ferrari could be brought onto zameen khaki to improve driving!!

In fact I agree with you that iff and ir follow illogical acts one after te other, hiring foreign coaches on this ground is absolutely and completely in line with stupidity madness, and throwing money away. So as we say kharo paloon be ham miyan. In other words not spending a dime on infrastructure is as bad as paying millions of dollars for foreigners that have not done and will not do anything!

in khar ya oon, ta infrastructure behesh dast nazadan ab az ab takoon nemeekhore...as seen in the past 6 years on this board khar hamoon khare paloonesh avaz shode...

[perspolees]

perspolees e aziz.......................
The situation in Iran, is too far a part to even have a hope for any kind of improvement in near future ( next 20 years )......what do you suggest we do in next 20 years ?

I have suggested many infrastructural and important ways for this on many different threads...., but now that the hip is what coach...may I suggest what we should NOT do in the next whatever years...!:

LETS NOT HIRE FORIGN COACHES FOR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! specially the ones that want to come on a part time basis lololol dige az in kesafat tar omran nadeedam!

simple as that!

[perspolees]

hello to all my dear old friends and pfdc.
i searched and searched and couldnt find my famous old thread of in khar meere yeki dige miyad ab az ab takoon nemeekhore. could not find it but found this similar one
lol
when I first joined was just after iran screwed it all up with bahrain for the 2002 world cup....when we picked up Ireland back then with blaz...then branko..then bla bla....point is ON THIS GROUND COACHES WILL CHANGE AND WE WILL NOT SEE ANY STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE ... WHAT SO EVER! 17 years from that date and we have remained a big fat nothing...the whole push this past asian cup for iran to win it all lol ...why should we?!!!
we suck at every single part of anything called infrastructure...back then people argued good coaches would make a difference.....all the money spent and what was the gain?! a solid loss to argentina and spain in different world cups?!! this much money for that !!?.o well time has shown that it will not...we better start now!
pitches for every town...lights for every stadium...roads for every town before a glorious coach with his ferrari to run on well what we call highway in iran lol

[perspolees]

btw i have to say i thought quiroz was and is an amazing coach but see his net benefit for iraninan football on this ground will be nothing except what was done as infrastructural work that will stick...
go RAMS!