Sepahan !

[zzgloo]

They say a soldier lost partial sight of one of his eyes,during the sepahan game...
Then they penalize Sepahan,the whole team,that has aspiration to be the champion,.. for money,attendance,and " 5 " points off of thier accumulated points during the season !!
Then,same head of deciplinary commity,resigns right after sentencing Sepahan,for a unheard punishment.
Then,Luka,talks to UAE clubs for leaving Sepahan.
......................
Now, one may ask......why 5 points ?.........where did they get such number from ?................where els have they ponished a team like that ?
Is n't it true,that 5 points is a exact garanteed number to make sure,perspolise become champion ?.....is n't it true ,the 5 points is garanteed number of points to distroy sepahan's season ?
what is the relation between this 5 points,and dismisal of the guy who implemented it ?.................and why,if he did it wrong,the judgement was not reversed ?..........and why Luka is insisting to leave ?......and why Government is so much behind what is happeneing to Football,and more over,why are they so much supportive of perspolise ?

[mkbf2]

Why even question the ruling when the whole damn IFF is questionable? You know we all know Sepahan should be at fault for something but when we lack a basic structure and consistency in disciplinary actions from IFF what else should we expect as fans. I still subscribe to the notion that the IFF tries in all its power to prevent teams from outside of Tehran from advancing in any stage, this coming from an esteghlali

[purple_haze]

They say a soldier lost partial sight of one of his eyes,during the sepahan game...
Then they penalize Sepahan,the whole team,that has aspiration to be the champion,.. for money,attendance,and " 5 " points off of thier accumulated points during the season !!
Then,same head of deciplinary commity,resigns right after sentencing Sepahan,for a unheard punishment.
Then,Luka,talks to UAE clubs for leaving Sepahan.
......................
Now, one may ask......why 5 points ?.........where did they get such number from ?................where els have they ponished a team like that ?
Is n't it true,that 5 points is a exact garanteed number to make sure,perspolise become champion ?.....is n't it true ,the 5 points is garanteed number of points to distroy sepahan's season ?
what is the relation between this 5 points,and dismisal of the guy who implemented it ?.................and why,if he did it wrong,the judgement was not reversed ?..........and why Luka is insisting to leave ?......and why Government is so much behind what is happeneing to Football,and more over,why are they so much supportive of perspolise ?

I have tried to keep my opinion to myself regarding this matter for so long, but after countless threads, polls and theories, I'm gonna give my version of this, specially since it is in F+ forum, where things are discussed maturely.

Although I can't say the point deduction is something I was expecting or totally agree with, but I wish people stop putting conspiracy theories together all the time. It's only half season and the gap between PP and the rest can be closed very easily. Remember last year, Saipa was 8 points clear at some point but then fell behind SS with almost the same amount before coming back and take the title. Same with PP, they were trailing SS with 12 points, but not only made up for it but even ended up a point above them. Now if they all supported PP, why didn't they do it in the last 6 seasons, but now all of a sudden when the team itself has been doing better and doesn't need the help? If any conspiracy theory was to be put forward, it would be that government in reality, doesn't want any of the red and blue giants to enjoy too much of a success, because that would mean more people in the stadiums and that's something they don't like.

About the head of the disciplinary comittee Shahhoseyni, I'm sure anyone familiar with the system in Iran knows that (although very childish and pathetic) it is customary for the officials that have worked under a certain administration or a leader, to resign as soon as there is a change in the administration.
I know this is beyond ridiculous, but true in Iran. Actually I had noticed this behaviour in some other cases and for me who have lived most of my life outside of Iran it was very odd, but my wife who actually has worked in that system in rather high places and knows it ver well, explained to me that it is an unwritten and unspoken law in Iran that as soon as there is a change in any organization, the people with higher posts, in a lame attempt to retain their so called pride, hand in their resignition.
In most cases the resignition is rejected and they go back doing what they did before as if nothing has happened.

About Luka leaving, what people who are mostly interested in conspiracy theories and other side issues, seem to miss is that, there actually is a pettern in Luka's behaviour wherever he has worked so far in our country.

The first club, was Foolad. If you remember he had some clashes with Foolad's more famous TM players at that time, like Kaabi, Mobali etc. and if you remember those players were benched alot due to disciplinary issues they had with Luka and you could read a whole bunch of inteviews by them against Luka in the papers back then. Foolad management didn't want to lose their high profile TM players, they meddled and tried to convince Luka to let them play and this in the end resulted in Luka leaving Foolad.
He then went to SS Ahvaz and the same story took form, with the management, Shafeizadeh in particular trying to meddle, again resulted in Luka leaving.
So far he didn't have any issues with Sepahan, but then the issues with M.Karimi and Navidkia surfaced, then came the interviews by the players in the papers, while the management wanted to keep both parties happy and not losing their stars and what has this now resulted in? Do you see the pattern now?
There are other stuff about the whole ordeal with Sepahan that people seem to miss:
1- PP and SS have been the biggest clubs in Iran attracting most if not all the media attention in the past. Many Sepahan fans have been complaining in the recent seasons that their team doesn't get as much attention. What they forget is that with media, specially the iranian version, comes the ever so destructive side issues and one of the main reasons behind the success of other clubs than PP and SS has been the lack of side issues which has had a direct relation to the lack of too much media attention. These clubs have had the opportunity to work and grow in a calm atmosphere that had not been interrupted and manipulated by the dirty media. Actually there is a pattern in this too, look at all the other clubs that have won IPL/GPL and what has happened to them the next season after winning the title. Look at their table position the next season. Except PP and SS all the other clubs who have won the title have suffered almost the same fate and have ended up at 6th place or below. Even PP and SS who have much more experience dealing with side issues, ended up 3rd and 4th after winning the title, but they faired better because of being used to this.

In Iran, as soon as you achieve something, everyone wants a piece of the action. Media attention becomes more intense and other unwanted parties are drawn to you and side issues grow bigger and bigger while being fed by media. Clubs like PP and SS are more used to this, but others, until they gain experience and also get used to handling and co existing with this crap, are simply going to crack under pressure. There doesn't always need to be conspiracy theories behind everything.

2- Sepahan fans have been behaving badly for quite some time now. Same goes for fans in many other cities, some examples are:

• Some seasons ago Shirazi fans were causing alot of trouble, specially towards SS. Although they have improved and have been better in recent years.

• Fans of SS Ahvaz have been behaving badly mostly towards PP. I clearly remember them throwing stones at PP players during some games.

• Mashadi fans have behaved terribly for the past 2-3 season and this was evident in Abumoslem's matches against SS and PP in Mashad. In one occasion against PP, they even targeted the assistant ref with a stone and broke his head during the game.

They should have acted much sooner before it was too late but they didn't.
Unfortunately our fans aren't cultured enough to understand and rectify themselves with simple warnings or mild punishments. As with most other things with our people, it would take a shock and a hard, severe punishment for us to realize our mistakes. If they had handed a hard punishment and set an example earlier the events in Esfehan could have been prevented. If the example had been set earlier, maybe the morons would think twice, if not for human reasons, at least for the affection towards their club, before doing such things.

[Hadi]

very good post purple-haze. Agreed 100%

The notion that the government supports Perspolis and Esteghlal more than a club like Sepahan, Saipa, Foolad is a false one.

First because Sepahan too is a governmental club. And they are lucky enough to have an owner (Foolad company) who gives them more budget than Perspolis and Esteghlal and has a stable and professional management team and also they have the support of the whole OSTAN.

On the other hand, Perspolis and Esteghlal's owners basically don't care about improving things. They just want to keep the clubs in their own hands. Success for Perspolis and Esteghlal is not an objective of their owners and each year, a poor director and head coach is appointed only to fail again and create more BEDEHI.

But when Perspolis and Esteghlal have countless fans in Iran, the media gives them more attention than other clubs, hence neutral fans think that Perspolis and Esteghlal get speacial treatment or are pulling the strings behind the curtains. But if you be fair, sine the IPL began, Perspolis and Esteghlal have been more or less treated like other clubs. For starters they have won the league only twice. In fact the chaotic management, destructive side issues, poor financial state and constant changes in management are results of getting high media attention and being owned by Tarbiyat Badani instead of say Saipa Co or Foolad.

About the point reduction, Shahhosseini claims he has acted according to the rules of IPL. And the reason for his resignation is because he wants to enter parliament and in order to become a candidate one must resign from all his governmental posts.
Anyway such incidents require special verdicts. I agree that the point reduction was harsh but it has set the standard so we should see similar verdicts in the future fro similar incidents. This may in fact force clubs to take more care educating and informing their fans and the fans themselves to behave.
Ever since the disciplinary committee started handing out fines for crowd trouble and offensive chants, I can see an obvious improvement in Azadi. I hope this will lead to even more improvement.

[zzgloo]

Dear purple haze,......Dear Hadi,................
Indeed all your points are valid,and instructive....but,still it does not answer the original questions :....nor does it answer following questions :

1-Why 5 points ?.....( as why not,other forms of punishments done in Europe ? )

2- Could they dare, have done the same punishment to PP or SS ??

3-Do n't deciplinary commities have more reservations,and think twice,when it comes to PP & SS ??

4-Is n't it easier to punish Sepahan ?

5-as mentioned by purple haze, others had done similar things too, Why starting now ? why Sepahan ?,and why this severe ?

6- Are n't these commities more poletical,and less football oriented, and are they not afraid of PP & SS FANS ??

[Hadi]

why 5 points? I don't know. This has to be asked of the members of the committee.

I think they would punish perspolis and esteghlal the same way. they might not have done so 5 years ago but they will now. sepahan is also a well supported club. Shahosseini has received tens of life threatening calls from Esfehan fans so it shows that the case is very sensitive. Surely, if (god forbid) a similar incident happens, perspolis and esteghlal will be sure they will get a similar treating in the future. but in the past, nothing like this has happened so we cant guess what would have happened. The only vrows trouble concerning perspolis and esteghlal has been their swearing (which is again something more common in Shahrestan but since Azadi matches are always televised on national TV, their fans are always penalized more) but in Shahrestan, incidents like rock throwing, explosives, constant swearing a benches, and fighting among the crows is almost an everyday event.

but I agree with you last point. the government is afraid of pp and ss fans. That is one of the reasons why they don't want to make the clubs private! that way, a whole army of die hard fans will go under private management and that is always dangerous for a totalitarian regime.

[maij]

I think I have littered my opinion about the subject matter in the football forum , but this one being more mature and intelligent , needs a specila attention.

I don't really know if their is a conspiracy against Sepahan and even if there was it is very difficult to prove.

My concern is about the 3 issues:

1- Multiple punishment for an offense NOT directly related by an action from Sepahan staff, players or coach. Lack of transparency and consistency in the application of the punishments.

2- The resignation of Head of IFF disciplinary committee right after the verdict.

3- Responsibility for the offense committed.

I just hope someone somewhere can give me an example in Iran ( or anywhere else for that matter) where a club gets 3 punishment for one offense ( I am assuming the club is fully guilty , which is another topic in itself)

Agha Hosseini , out of ethics , should have maintained his position and defended it , explained it and provide evidence on his side , then hear the evidence provided by the accused before quitting. A person who is quitting in such a manner loses credibility and despite his claims , he does not seem to me that he is very convincing in his actions.

I still have great doubt that Sepahan should be held responsible for an act that they have little or no control on. I can digest the fact that they are deprived from fans in their games , but where do we stand with the 5 points deduction? Why are the players efforts wasted for something they have not committed???

I am a firm believer in discipline and respect for the law. But it works both ways. The judge must respect the right of the defender , else and the system lose credibility........I think this is the case with Sepahan and IFF disciplinary committee

[Ali Chicago]

For people who say the punishment is harsh, maybe it is but isn't it the time to stand up to fan holliganisem.

See the following thread in the main PFDC to get a better feel of the pain fan holliganisem creates.

http://www.persianfootball.com/forum...ad.php?t=54738

Many people say they wouldn't have done the same to SS and PP, and maybe they are right and they wouldnt'. But in that case, we should criticize the disciplinary committee for lack of consistancy and put pressure on it to be consistant, not to come here and say the verdict isnt' fair against Sepahan and all.

Plus in three other threads I listed this, Sepahan fans seems to be very organzied although I assume still not as big as PP or SS fans. So in past games they have done some dangerous stuff. For example they surronded the bus for the SS players and even damaged the bus. They brough bull horn to the staudim and abused opposition team coaching staff and players with teh Bull horn. BTW, if SS or PP fans do the same they deserve the same punishment.

Point is a bad action needs to be stood against at some point. One can't say, let's do nothing since nothing was doen in the past.

Agha Maij:
This is not the first time Shah Hosseini resigns He resigned last year too after the Daie punishment was reduced (Daie Shays in PP Saipa game). I think he used the resignation tool to make sure, he won't be overruled (like Daie case . He received a lot of death threats supposedly from hollighan fans. I can't blame him for not wanting to endanger him and his family and resign.

[Doctor DOOM]

I, like majid jan, have explained my position on this. so I dont think there's any need to repeat them.

But what bothers me is ppl keep saying "such a thing never happened before" !
hadi jan, aghye X , aghaye Y ( all those who have said this ) , THIS HAS INDEED HAPPENED BEFORE.
The only difference is none of those resulted in such a severe injury.
but does that mean the actions of violent fans in many stadia were any less violent?
NO.
they just got lucky those acts didnt end up blinding, severely injuring or causing any permanent damage to ppl.

God forbid, but I'd like to see what ppl would say if one of those stones or seats thrown at ppl had hit any of you in the head, eye, back, spine, temple, ... etc. God forbid. But just imagine.
I have seen ppl chuck the seats from 10-15 rows above. and usually ppl down there are looking up for such things ( instead of watching the pitch. something that they have come to do, lets not forget ) and duck and dodge them. But if someone wasnt so "wise" and having paid to watch a football game, he expected to be looking towards the pitch and this hit his spine or neck. such injuries could even end up at paralysis of the body or worse ! what then? is it HIS fault ? or the scumbag who threw the seat?

what about the fellows who ducked the stones? what if all those guys werent so vigil and watchful? who'd be at fault?

so plz do NOT say this has NOT happened, coz we all know it is definitely not true.
the only thing is the poor soldier wasnt as lucky as all those others in terhran, esfahan, anzali, abadan, shiraz, mashad, .... etc. !


========

and let us separate the DEGREE of this tragic result and the violent acts of fans.
I think a lot of us are influenced by the horrible result of this violent act. and that is urging us to find a guilty party ( any party ) and severely punish them. But let us keep aside the " tragic result" first.

I dont think even one person would say the poor soldier deserves anything less than XXXXXXX amount of money, care and benefits.
I dont think anyone says that scumbag who threw the cracker was right or shd be let off easy or ... .
I dont think anyone would say there shd not be responsibility for this and ppl shdnt have to own up to it.


what we say is a fan has done an illegal act that has been happening for ages all over.
and considering the clubs in Iran are not in charge of the security, sales of tickets, .... as it is in the pro world of europe, we cannot apply the european rules to Iran.

I also think the security forces at the stadium ( naja ) has found the perfect alibi to cover its own lacks in handling the crowd, in sepahan and are keeping quiet. someone shd say it was NAJA who shd have ensured safety and security and it was their mishandling of the crowd/situation that resulted in an act of violence ( irrespective of the result ).
why is Naja let go scott free?
why nobody talks about their failure and responsibility?

the MORE directly responsible parties are :
1- the bastard who threw it and all the other spineless bastards around him who kept quiet and have done so even till today !
2- NAJA . mentioned above.
did that bastard literally fabricate this cracker out of raw material available on the seats? couldnt they search ppl better at the gates?
3- the stadium officials and generally all our football infrastructural officials by not equipping the stadiums with CCTV's that are dirt cheap and affordable.

these are far more directly responsible for this than a team that was playing on the pitch. and on a pitch that wasnt even the team's property !!!!


so having said all that, while I agree the club has to be punished which means an indirect punishment for its fans ( the primary guilty party ), the ban in attendance and fine shd have sufficed. the points deduction brings in a lot of issues such as who was truly responsible for the security, which in Iran's case, is never the clubs.


would we be talking about such things if the soldier had been merely bruised in the arm ? would there be a committee formed? would there be such a punishment? would there be such media coverage or hoopla ?
NO.
but does that mean there shdnt have been a committee formed and punishment doled out?
hell yes.
this is why I say the matter of blindness is affecting many ppl's reasoning.

[maij]

For people who say the punishment is harsh, maybe it is but isn't it the time to stand up to fan holliganisem.

See the following thread in the main PFDC to get a better feel of the pain fan holliganisem creates.

I am the first one who would cry the loudest to say that discipline and the letter of the law should prevail, BUT not to the extent of victimizing. Why I should be convicted while I am innocent , or why should I be incarcerated for 10 years for a traffic violation ???

Many people say they wouldn't have done the same to SS and PP, and maybe they are right and they wouldnt'. But in that case, we should criticize the disciplinary committee for lack of consistancy and put pressure on it to be consistant, not to come here and say the verdict isnt' fair against Sepahan and all.

Nothing to do with PP or SS at least in my opinion . Apply the law , after examining all the facts , be transparent and firm yet allow the accused to defend himself in a proper manner. This has not happened in the case in question.

Point is a bad action needs to be stood against at some point. One can't say, let's do nothing since nothing was doen in the past.

Again , not my argument , although the truth is that it has happened zillions of time without such severe actions.

Agha Maij:
This is not the first time Shah Hosseini resigns He resigned last year too after the Daie punishment was reduced (Daie Shays in PP Saipa game). I think he used the resignation tool to make sure, he won't be overruled (like Daie case . He received a lot of death threats supposedly from hollighan fans. I can't blame him for not wanting to endanger him and his family and resign.

It says a lot about the credibility of the man. A defeatist who can not stand the heat. No one denies that being a chairman of the disciplinary committee is a awkward and stressful job, and he should know it more than us. However , If he cannot stand the heat , he should not be there in the first place.

Also , he should know that his rulings are not absolute. What sort of mentality does he carries where he believes that he should not be over-ruled , questioned or challenged? In every legal system there is the process of appeal and filing Grievance.

Does Shah Hosseini thinks that single-handedly he can impose a ruling that should not be questioned or appealed against?....... Hell , what do we have here , another Hitler or Saddam !!!!

[zzgloo]

I am enjoying this thread,and feel previllaged discussing with such a civilized ,informed group.
...................................
To me, the Iranian authorities have always been tough with fans......,and iranian estediums , have more securities than most estediums in other countries.....as well as authorities often imposed thier will,more than normal...
From,trouble causing ticket purchasing,to get in to estediums with force,and possibility of being hit by 'Entezamat's " Batooms ".........to, stands,in azadi,which,entezamat,always,move around fans as they wish,and most often,keep parts of stands empty and not allow a fan to seat where they want......often,the secound level,over the " JAYGAH " is kept empty,..so on,and so on...........I have not seen such treatment,in other estediums around the world.....
More over, since other countries have trouble with fans also,and I have seen,secound level of some forign esteediums collapse,due to fans excesive presures,or seting fires,throwing things around,etc,etc,..which we have seen in other parts of the world .............
And,haveing these in mind,Iranian fans are not partcularly wilder than most other fans, ..............................
.................................................. ...............
In general,the authorities in Iran,have no respect for individual rights, nor have they been shy to punish....
In Sepahan's case, it appeares to me, they wanted to give a lesson to the fans,since,..the 5 point reduction,along with two other forms of punishment,is a massage !!,which they intended for all football fans of Iran.......yet,some how, it was easier to choose Sepahan,and isfahan,for this,which was less troublesum !!!,.........SS and PP would have been too risky !