Better off,staying In IRAN.

[zzgloo]

The question is,if it is better for our football to have legioners ?
Is it better to use legioners for TM ?
Would forign born Iranian players helpful ?
The "observer", of England,through an analytic article about Africa,answrs "NO", to all above questions .
see bellow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/sport/s...rver-nwo.shtml

[The-Red]

as long as they dont go to uae or other gulf leagues i guess

[Doctor DOOM]

good question, bahram jan.

I think the vital point is how DETERMINED & HUNGRY are these players who get transfered.

we have seen 2 kinds of players. one set went there on the back of some good performances. signed with european clubs, and started well. but due to many reasons ( later ) they couldnt keep up and fell by the way side.
we can name PLENTY of players of this kind: mansoorian, dinmohamadi, latifi, moosavi, azizi, bagheri, khatibi, majidi, karimi, ... etc.
most of these chaps came back within a year or two with far too many lackluster and inferior performances in their clubs to warrant their stay in europe.

the other sect were the more hungry, determined set. who kept at it and showed success. of this set, we can name daei, VH, Kia, even Rahman.
Minavand & Pasha ( to some extent ) did well for the first few years, but they, too either lost focus or got tired or ... ! but at least they did better than the first set.

why the difference?
I can only guess but here are some of my views:

1- education.
I believe the more educated the person, the easier he can adapt to new and alien environment. be it learning a foreign language or social adaptability or the raw material for becoming a professional.
sportsmen also not unlike these.
Daei is highly educated. and he showed it by truly learning to fit into the system there. he learnt their language , no matter how broken. and most importantly, he adopted their pro attitude. which he's benefiting even today.
I think VH and Kia also are more educated or at least more well-rounded than other players we've sent.

I think language is a very important factor. and having a sensible head on us shoulders is the difference between the two groups of legioners. one set pushes himself to learn and fit. the other just doesnt care and slowly loses out ... some despite their skills. bagheri fits into this one, sadly !

2- Maturity is yet another factor.
while some players had the skills ( karimi, bagheri, azizi, ... ) they didnt have the maturity to adapt to the environment that was very different from that of Iran and around it. when compared to our general populace's attitude and behavior, europe's cold and no nonesense outlook & treatment wasnt to their "liking". they wanted fans adulation, warm eastern conduct & treatment, ... !
that's why you see karimi at bayern is a totally different person than the one at uae or qatar.
generally they are "bacheh naneh" who cant take a little distant from their mothers and mother-land with all the spoilings ! and they had to run back to moma quickly !

But Daei, VH, kia, rahman have shown their determination and maturity has surpassed their longing for their cuddly mother(land)'s lap.


3- being bacheh naneh, also meant they were SOFT. they obviously couldnt deal with the hard and tough regimen of training in europe.
they are used to friendly and loose and lax training in Iran, with all its social pampering and amateurish settings.
only a few actually pulled up their socks and got down to business. and now, they reap their efforts' benefits.

this kind of players' lack of determination and toughness meant they will not work hard or fight for their spot once they lose it to a rival! they'll wrap themselves into a ball and wait for deportation. no fight, no clawing back up like what Kia did at hamburg.
once a soosool, always a soosool !

====================

Both ando and Neku seem to fall into the more progressive and professional bunch. good for them.
I hope they get focused and STAY focused. as they are at the beginning of their career and they have to bear some tough times.

This doesnt mean ando shd not look elsewhere when many things point to the fact that bolton is increasingly looking a tougher place to get his due. Kia made this mistake of "sticking around" a few years back when deportivo and soem other teams came asking for him. he shd have been more professional and shdnt have put the fickle fans atop of HIS own career. Ando has to be more logical and less emotional.

also this is why I dont think players like Niki would make much of anything in europe. he thrives on Iranian treatment ( adulation, fans flocking , media spoiling and attention, ... ). in europe he'll have to trade all that soft pillow for tough as nail training and even harder competition on the pitch.


so bottomline is; either you have the guts ( hunger, determination, steel and dedication to hard work ) or you dont.
if you dont, then dont bother booking ur tickets. play in uae, qatar just like the rest of our bunch of soosools and bache nanehs.

[Adesor Vafaseya]

Great thread

If you think about some of our legionaires do "OK" in Europe but when they return to TM, don't you miss something in their playing style?

Mahdavika played out of 8 years in Germany, amazing 6 years... but ever since he left to Germany, I never saw the "Rocket of Asia" in him...

Karimi...I don need to even touch base, we all observed what happened.

Bagheri - was like our General in midfield, what happened when he moved to Germany, one "OK" year at Arminia Bielefeld.. but TM? no where near what he was before.

Ali Moussavi.... shall I continue?

Mehdi Pashazadeh... shall I continue?

Darisuh Yazdani... shall I continue?




.. the answer is clear!

[purple_haze]

Great thread

If you think about some of our legionaires do "OK" in Europe but when they return to TM, don't you miss something in their playing style?

Mahdavika played out of 8 years in Germany, amazing 6 years... but ever since he left to Germany, I never saw the "Rocket of Asia" in him...

Karimi...I don need to even touch base, we all observed what happened.

Bagheri - was like our General in midfield, what happened when he moved to Germany, one "OK" year at Arminia Bielefeld.. but TM? no where near what he was before.

Ali Moussavi.... shall I continue?

Mehdi Pashazadeh... shall I continue?

Darisuh Yazdani... shall I continue?




.. the answer is clear!

Maybe it's got to do with confidence?!

I mean it would be logical to think that these players were above the rest of their own pack of players in Iran and even at asian level.
They knew this themselves and they played with some ease of mind, plus they were younger and one dares much more when younger and tests the limits.

Then came the move to europe were the competition and the level of players around them wasn't comparable to the one they were used to. While they were used to being better than the rest before, they were brought down to earth and now had to realize they were matched by many and even inferior to some.

This the kind of situation were most people tend to lose a bit of their self confidence, as a result of this rude awakening.

[zzgloo]

Maybe it's got to do with confidence?!

I mean it would be logical to think that these players were above the rest of their own pack of players in Iran and even at asian level.
They knew this themselves and they played with some ease of mind, plus they were younger and one dares much more when younger and tests the limits.

Then came the move to europe were the competition and the level of players around them wasn't comparable to the one they were used to. While they were used to being better than the rest before, they were brought down to earth and now had to realize they were matched by many and even inferior to some.

This the kind of situation were most people tend to lose a bit of their self confidence, as a result of this rude awakening.

Desaee,the Ghana born french captain,in this,bellow,article says, the african legioners,have had negative influence for african teams,and while they play better tacticaly,but they have lost " ESALAT VA KHALAGHIAT "...which can only be nurtured in home country.
Loseing players to forign countries, is in fact, according to this bellow article, a poison !!!,
............
payman jaan, education,maturity,and being soft are defenetly real causes...
as well as disorientation of liveing,and adjusting to a totaly stange culture...........they come to a point,that football is no longer fun ! hence,loseing creativity.

[gol_kuchik]

This is a tough call ZZ jan. To me we should not see it as black and white.

It seems we are sticking every legioners we have, regardless of their
physical, mental prepraredness, heck even mental readiness into TM.

That definitely must change.

On the other hand, cutting them all off as well seems to be wrong.
If a player is in shape and ready And willing, why would you want to hold
their invaluable international experience against him?

I have been saying since last WC, TM has to be the collection of best at
or in the vicinity of the timeframe they are to take part in an event.

A has been player will not help, nor an injured or unwilling player. Make the process
competetive and open and the chips will fall in the place. Just be open minded to take
a domestic player over a well known international, if he is delievering the goods in
practice and on the field.

[maij]

I think it is wrong to generalize , but the facts are clear. Most of the players who made it to Europe , did not perform well in Team Melli jersey , the exception was Ali Daei

I suppose it is combination of these factors , sitting on the bench , loss of appetite for TM , a chip on the shoulder and fear of injury.

In any case , it is wrong to ignore the legionnaires , but frankly they have failed to impress me or at least failed my expectations in the last few years.

[gol_kuchik]

One thing I wanted to add:

If you put yourself in most of legioners shoes, they probably dont have that much motivation
to play for TM anyways. As you have mentioned, this can be seen with many African players as well.

The real problem in my mind is, the coach does not get to spend much time with the team to develop it. Having failed to even secure all the players he wants from their clubs for TM prepration, the coach is left with one choice: Take those who have already passed the tests (or as they say in business: no one is fired for buying IBM).

The reality of 18 team IPL + the promotion of top 2 teams (presumably with best players)
for the Asian Cup and effectively around the year schedule leaves little room for the
coach to develop the players. So he will rely on the players who have already played
for TM ..... who happened to be legioners

[Haf3z]

I agree with agha Majeed (sorry if I spell your name wrong ). Every player and every transfer is unique so there's actually no reason why our players can't make it abroad. What 99 % of the regular members on these boards forget is that it's not only about making it on the field that counts. A player must be in balance psychologically off the pitch in order to compete for a shirt in the starting line up every week. We have players like Nekounam who obviously (despite not being with his family in Pamplona) managed to integrate and to adapt socially. Then there are examples like Hossein Kaebi who, the way I see it, never really had the chance or help to learn the British way of thinking and breathing football. IF he spoke English fluently and if he (considering the fact that he is so young) would have put a little more of an effort to learn what works and what doesn't in the English Championship division, he would be one of the most interesting players of that league. We have all seen him hen he peaks and he is really talented, there's no doubt about it.

Ali Karimi is probably the most obvious example of how socially nonworking players never make it in the European leagues. He is not the first Asian player who experienced a rough time being far away from home. In Qatar or UAE; whatever, he is close to home and the culture he was brought up in and which he identifies himself with. The money is of course an important factor here as well...

Andranik Teymourian is one of those professional individuals who tried (and still does I guess) to learn the language and the mentality. His problem was that he was bought by Big Sam, a manager known for his skills with unknown players and old fallen stars. Now that Big Sam is gone, no other manager could possibly have found Andranik because he is really no Ali Karimi type of player that outshines his surroundings.

Ando is professional but perhaps not gifted "enough" to be a starter in one of the world's best leagues.

In the end of the day I guess it's all about patience and hunger. Those factors have helped many achieve their (by others regarded) impossible goals.

[maij]

Hafez Jan ...let us take this legionnaire a step further ... Maybe the lot of them ( who don't regularly play or are on the bench) are simply not good enough!
Emotions aside , only a few impressed enough to get the right to play in the starting line up. Mehdi Mahdavikia is the only one who actually maintained his standard ans is a regular , the rest ...well.

I am just surprised how come a guy goes to England , who can not count from 1 to 10 in English , and expect the Brits to accept him as a professional ??? with sign language , I suppose !!!!!

Kaebi seems to have problems oversees. He never settled in Qatar either.

BTW: You spelled my name perfectly.

[Haf3z]

Absolutely, Mahdavikia has the talent, but also the right personality. The same thing goes for Vahid.

I remember when HSV wanted to release Mahdavikia, but he refused to move and proved that he was the best alternative they had on the right flank. He played some of his best football during that period (the season before WC06). I haven't seen such fighting spirit in any of our other European professionals yet.

Kaebi does indeed have problems and judging by how many times he changes his looks in one season, I think that he is selfoccupied and arrogant. Maybe I'm wrong...

[zzgloo]

It also seems,that our legioners,seem to be content where they are at, more so than the local players in Europe,as they stay with a team,and only change clubs when thier status get shaky with thier teams, as the European players may want to change clubs,to go up on the ladder of success,and better thier resume'..........

It is so interesting,that all my fellow members here,have stated ,although different yet, valid points......as it proves,this is such a dynamic issue.
" Cload le Roy ", the french head coach of Ghana, believs, " The longer the players stay in thier own country before moveing to Europe, the better it will be for the player's developement,and thier country " ....So, it is not matter of puting aside the legioners, nor it is matter of adjustment ".......It is matter of, Not picking the froot from the tree so early,before it is ripe .which may not be good , nither for his country,nor for himself.
..........................................
Finaly, I must talk about my son ...!!! as he is 9 years old .....contrary to what my father did to me, I always encourage him,and tell him he is doing a fine job.................which I believe it will help him better for his future...
I said this, because, a player who stays in Iran, gets lot more incouragements than the legioners.........A players who in the Azadi estedium is supported and paid attention to by 100,000, and newspapers write about him, is much more motivated to do better than, a left alone, culturaly elianated legioner.

[Doctor DOOM]

well bahram jan, I agree on not sending a player too early.
the player has to take some shape at home before making such a drastic move. especially from our amateurish set up to the ultra pro european setting.
19, 20, even 22 may be too early.
But a player around the age of 27 and above may be too old for any sort of "investment" for a euro club, as they look at their hirings as INVESTMENTS that ought to last at least a couple of 3 seasons.

this leaves us an age range of 23-26, which arguably are the optimum age for a player to show maximum efficiency and performance. If you notice, most of those who did have a successful jaunt in europe were in this range ( barring, of course, the king of determination and hard work, Daei . whom I think was about 28 ). VH, Kia, Rahman were all within this range. I think the player is mature enough to differentiate between the "fun life" offered and the "chance or opportunity to become greater". But at the same time, is not so old to be set in his ways and change seems more daunting and difficult to effect.
But guys like kaabi, dinmohamadi, mansoorian, .... were either too old or too young.

but the age is a minor issue and the more prominent factors are still the player's attitude , determination and adaptability.

===============

Now, seeing that many of our legioners are not exactly in top form. what shd we do at TM?
Biggest question:
shd they get their traditional post in the starters at TM?
or shd they be slotted with the rest and the starters be picked PURELY based on merit and form?

becoz while the legioners have the experience and at least familiarity with pro training, they may not be in a better shape or form than an IPL player.
wat shd the coach do?
experience or hunger?
tough question for any coach.

I guess the best decision could be put all players in one slot and let them show their stuff. in posts where X and Y are absolutely equal, preference shd be given to the more experienced. but they shd be absolutely EQUAL.
this removes the complacency factor that set in during branko's term.

[zzgloo]

wat shd the coach do?
experience or hunger?
tough question for any coach.

PAYMAN E AZIZ.............
indeed a tough question..............
usualy what matters to most coaches....is the " Coachebility " of players, as how easy players can implement the coach's ideas.....which,that would vote for legioners............
But, this is exactly why in that article,said, the African players had negative influence, as the coaches are bound to choose experince and coachebility over talent and creativity...............and that is the whole point !