Ali Daie - Back to Branko

[maij]

no. I didnt expect us to win either mexico or portugal at the time of draws.
but setting the bar so low as to merely qualify ahead of bahrain and n korea is simply ridiculous.

Forget about IFF for the sake of argument. What was your expectation?

Remember that apart from the Asian Games medals , where B team qualify (or U23) Iran's last success was winning the Asian Cup in 1976 (38 years ago) at senior level , and no youth or junior level trophies since the pre-revolution. Our best moment of fame was that we had several players playing , mostly bench-warming, European clubs.
Why is it that suddenly we think that we deserve better?

we ( and I mean the officials and IFF ppl and all those with power in our football circle ) never showed or behaved to want more. we maintained that as long as we qualify, it is mission accomplished !
and that relieved any sense of adventure or commitment or urgency or ... call it whatever, from TM staff and coaches. and .... the rest is history.

Well I don't know about that , Peyman Jan, I can't speak for those officials although I can't say/read for certain that they were satisfied by purely qualifying.

But did it occur to you that they are aware of the limitations surrounding the Iranian football culture and they can very little to change it ?

which brought us to the actual WC games and mexico's weak performance made the sense of lost opportunity even more painful. that was a chance game we could have once in a blue moon, to play a world class team on their OFF day, given what we had and could have had, had we been PREPARED sensibly !

I don't share that point of view. We lost against Mexico , YES , but played badly, NO.

as for this upcoming one:
I still maintain if we keep Daei, we are in a way foregoing our true potential.
under a good foreign coach ( even a good B tier one ) we can not only qualify, if luck favors us in the draw, we can make something out of the WC games also. we still have some pretty good players and certainly the time to build a strong team. we know we have the talent pool to get it right.
but we need a good coach. and I'm afraid Daei's capabilities are not enough to create that team for us.

even if we finish the last stage of qualifications with him.

You could be right , and you could be wrong....how can one argue on such basis. On IFs and BUTs , I can give a string of statements which I can never prove. If we get Arsene Wenger , I promise you we can win the World Cup in 2014!

we shd inject a sense of adventure into the team.
good teams play the WC once every 4 years. teams like Iran arent even ensured of this once-in-4-years. so the chance we get, we must extract the absolute MOST out of it.

I quite agree with that. It is a demand of many fans from what I have seen. I just hope that it is realistic expectation and I really hope that Daei senses that his team needs this touch of adventure , without leaving his back exposed.

I am aware of all our shortcomings and lacks.
but I'm aware of our talent also.
and this potential that you ask is the TRUE POTENTIAL that .... let me put it this way:
imagine it's WC06 and we are facing that particular mexcio.
but our team ( including the staff ) was PREPARED.
1- which means the coach had enough brains to have the team ready PHYSICALLY. much like GN's AC07, which was under far worse climatic conditions in malaysia.

2- which means the coach had a team that did NOT over-rely on just a handful of players for almost 2 years. and could easily replace the fixed ones with the tried and tested alternatives who did have game time under the belt and did have time to settle into the team.

3- a good coach could easily either inject motivation & remove complacency among the "favorite" handful or at the most, replace them early , a year before the campaign, to make a homogenous but effective team.

4- which means the coach was intelligent enough to not attempt to change the NATURE of our team, for 3 years , trying to transform it from an attacking minded team to a defensive, cautious one ... and end up with a team that was neither defensively sound AND a team that had lost its teeth and had forgotten its own attacking character !

5- which means the coach would have enough spine to CEASE THE DAY & opportunity and ambitious enough to recognize THIS IS THE DAY I AND MY TEAM MAKE OUR MARK in the world . no matter if we lose, we will stand proud of our performance after 90 minutes.


and some other similar points.
notice none of the above points are impossible. they all could have been achieved with a little hard work. and yes, in spite of our lacks.
for this, we wouldnt need state of the art facilities to have a motivated and hungry skillful midfielder. or a grand infrastructure to have a more GK able to kick the ball. or magnificent foundation to get a balanced team. or to have inspired players who would put their ALL into those 3 games, even if they come off the pitch bleeding.

branko was at BEST a mediocre man with LOW ambition and self-serving, self-preserving character who got satisfied too soon, with too little. hence treated & approached the 3 WC games just like a domestic league game !



I pose a question to you and the rest of brothers here:
what would you think of TM's first 50-55 minutes against mexico?
we all liked it, coz even inspite of the wrong formation and using an inactive daei and ... TM pushed the mexicans to the limit and actually did have quite a few chances to score more goals.
now, my Q is this:
what would you say if we could merely tweak the history by:

1- having the team play with that intensity for 90 minutes, rather than 50-60 minutes.
would it be impossible? definitely not. AC07 is a clear indication of what our physical potential was. 120 minutes against korea while even in the second half of extra time our lads were running amok ... IN THAT STIFLING CLIMATE !

2- having used a two man forward line up with the second fellow someone who did see trust in him, was given time to settle w the team, prepared well. impossible? I say thee nay.

3- having a GK who could actually KICK the ball. impossible? never.

4- having a coach who KNEW how to combat a change in formation or tactic by the opponent's coach. impossible? never.

5- ....
you get my drift, I hope.
small tweaks. that's all.

What makes you think that many of those you suggested was not practiced , but most importantly what makes you think that deploying those suggestion would have made a difference?

My take on Asian Cup 07 is as this.

1- Major shortcomings from the players.
2- Sense of complacency from the whole team.
3- Horrible individual defensive errors.
4- A bunch of disgruntled players (mostly on the bench)
5- A futile offense with target men who did not deliver.

GN have changed his line up several times , but it failed to produce the results. I admit that using the likes of Khatibi was a mistake but this is easily said no after the event.

[Ali Chicago]

Majid Jaan;

Thanks for the dialogue. It seems we are saying the same thing and it is like that movie lost in traslation.

Two points:

On Wynalda and TM performacen in WC 2006I never say Eric Wynalda is a expert in Iranian football, but when one is good footballer and watches a game, he can comment on it. I watched T&T as a matter of fact I had no idea where the country is. But when I saw was the tenacity, desire and determination. Based on the fact that where the country was in the football standing, I came to the conclusion that their performance in the WC was over achievement.
Iran is a three times Asian champion, and a power house in Asia, based on that and the fact that Iran plays even more or less even ground with Saudie, Japan, Korea Austraila, people develope certain level of expectation from Asian standareds (particualary Iran). In other words how Aussie, Japaneese, Koreans and Saudies did ( I am not talking about points, I am talking how they played). One team might play great but still loose the game on individual player mistake or brilliant finishiing of the other team or bad ref call.

I never expected Iran to beat Mexico or Portugal, I expecetd Iran to loose. However If Iran played the way it played against Mexico in the first half for the whole game and then same performance against Portugal I would have labeled that as a success. Regardless even if we lost 3-0 both games.

Against Angola I expected a much better convincing performance from Iran. That was a pure disappointment. I hope that at least explains why I beleive our performance in the wc 2006 was subpar. I went throught this to death with Yashar and all of this sounds like a deja vu.


Summary of my position toward Mr. Daie's coaching in the TMAs for Daie, I have no ill feeling toward him and I am not naive to make him a pure evil or an angel.

1. My concern is very simple, his selection process as more evidence comes out (see the video link I posted earlier) seems to be very flawed and was based on other factors ( at least the routine process of asking for the long term and short term program wasn't followed). Based on what Mr. Daie said, his first meeting with Kafasheeyan was about management job in the TM and he flatly rejected it. They never asked him for a long term or short term program for the TM. Which means he was never even considered in the first place). Since asking for a long term and short term and success and failuer criteria from a coach prospect is a very routine process. Even I went through that in my high school and youth coaching (application process).This will aggreviate the whole suspicion that right or wrong exists around Daie.
2. Another issue is the fact that Mr. Daie has a "baggage" with him right or wrong, just or unjust. If team is successful all will be kiss and hug and everything will be under the bridge.
3. God forbid if the team isn't successful, I beleive the hasheeyeh will be magnified by a factor 100 if team goes through a touch patch.
4. I never claimed I know how Daie will perform in th TM. Who the hell I am to claim that? As I said, I will give Mr. Daie at least 6 months to judge his performance and see how he faces problems and solves them.

The above four points summarizes my position toward Mr. Daie's coaching in the TM. Do you agree or disagree with this these points?

[Doctor DOOM]

majid jan, my answers are in color

also, kindly add ali's comments in the post above to mine, on this matter.
I share the exact sentiments.

Forget about IFF for the sake of argument. What was your expectation?

To see TM play 3 GOOD games, show its true potential and fight hard.
to see them cease this RARE opportunity and not behave it's just another game.
to see the BEST we had on offer take to the pitch and then proceed to tear their arses for each and every ball as if there's no tomorrow. which means they give it their ALL.
but neither the BEST we had took to the pitch ( half of them were lazy, complacent, pampered fellows. another sect were out of form. and NONE were physically fit) nor were they led properly !!!




But did it occur to you that they are aware of the limitations surrounding the Iranian football culture and they can very little to change it ?


I am sure you are aware of the various limitations and lacks in countries like Nigeria of 94, T&T of 06, turkey of 02, senegal or 02, algeria of 82, cameroon of 90, .... etc.
and yet, the same deficient and football-wise inferior countries have created HISTORY and tales that even now ppl speak of.
didnt they have many limitations as well?
based on what did they have the courage to stand up to the likes of argentina, france, germany, england, Italy, .... and not only defy the odds, sometimes even BEAT them ???
simple, my friend:
THEY CEASED THE DAY.
they took hold of their opportunities and extracted the most out of it.
they didnt play it safe or according to the unwritten script or logic or norm.



I don't share that point of view. We lost against Mexico , YES , but played badly, NO.

Are you happy with what we displayed after minutes 55-60 ? the horrible lack of physical conditioning doesnt bother you ?


What makes you think that many of those you suggested was not practiced , but most importantly what makes you think that deploying those suggestion would have made a difference?


to make it short I'll say the signs were there all along more than a year before the games. you know it too.
signs such as :
- we didnt have anyone to work on the fitness of the players. and this showed in many games before the WC.
- need I go over the same crap of branko's preference on a handful of players and ignoring the need for alternatives ?
- setting of complacency was crystal clear for a loooong long time.
- loss of motivation among the frings players and those on the bench was clear as well.
- avoidance and running away from any kind of situation that may expose the MANY problem areas that have been neglected/ignored/denied ( I still remember human repeating branko's garbage about TM not having ANY problem with its defense and left wing !!! ).
and many more issues.



GN have changed his line up several times , but it failed to produce the results. I admit that using the likes of Khatibi was a mistake but this is easily said no after the event.

GN's problem was he lost his guts when he shd have kept it: AC07 games.
he suddenly got cautious and reverted to BRANKO's favorite line up, players, tactics, .... !!!
added to our crumbling state of scoring goals, you'd know you're in trouble !

but to be truthful, while I blame branko for many things, the MAJORITY of the blame falls not on any farangi fellow. it falls right on DADKAN's worthless shoulders who HAD the power to do something about it and didnt.

ironic to see he was a football player himself ! which makes his inaction even more criminal.
when simple fans notice so many issues that reared their heads more than a year before the games and were either ignored or denied by the staff, one would expect the head of the fed'n to exercise more intelligence and wisdom ! hah ! big fat f*cking chance !

branko, at best was a good assistant coach. I take ciro's words for it.
but he was NOT good at MAKING the decisions and laying down policies.
good assistant coaches are those who CARRY OUT the decisions and policies of the head coach. they dont shoulder the responsibility and dont have to. coz they always have the cushion and safety net of the HEAD coach.
put these guys in difficult situations and many dont make it through. branko was one such fellow.

[Ali Chicago]

GN's problem was he lost his guts when he shd have kept it: AC07 games.
he suddenly got cautious and reverted to BRANKO's favorite line up, players, tactics, .... !!!
added to our crumbling state of scoring goals, you'd know you're in trouble !

I totally agree with this. I mean he had some technical tactical mistakes (Now looking in the hindsight), but all of those were results of him becoming coservative and rely on the Branko's era team.

Reality is the 98 TM team generation is coming to end. Players who Blaz and Branko introudced to the TM (Rezai, Mirzapoor, Kaabi, Kameli, Badavi, Alavi) somehow are not performing. New Blood is needed for the TM. Had GN trusted his instict (not that it is an easy decision when you are the TM head coach), outcome would have been different.

[yashar_fasihnia]

yashar jan, an example for realistic is this, which relates to what I said about japan A vs Iran A or ... etc:

if belgium plays france, is it UNREALISTIC to think more often than not france would win? so if one has to make a call, the call would favor france instead of belgium.
yes, there are chances and possibilities ( not probabilities, though ) that belgium beats france once in a while, but the hard money is on france. correct? unless france has a bad day and belgium somehow manages to win. but what is the % of this ?

and yes, despite what many claim about Iran's utter superiority in asia, we are NOT that superior. we havent been for a long time. apart from lack of trophies, the head-to-head stats against the asian top dogs supports that too. and not only stats, but the actual quality comparison, including all the peripheral issues of football considered, supports this argument.
we are , REALISTICALLY speaking, asia's fifth best team.


as for ur "examples", all I can do is smile !
you bring up exceptions like greece !! hah !
what did greece do after that? so next time greece play france or holland or ... are you going to bet ur house on greece? really ?
need I even waste time proving the universal knowledge that "exceptions dont prove rules" ?
I hope not.


so what are the chances of an exception happening as compared to the chances of normalcy prevailing?
hell, if these events had any chance more than 10% of happening, nobody would label them EXCEPTIONS, would they ?
common sense, bro.

------------

I think this thread, and countless others that keep associating branko with TM shd answer ur query about whether "ppl have moved on" or not.

===================




as for "delivering cups & trophies" which is a flawed thinking:
I dont like to think there's anyone who doubts Arsen Wenger's capabilities as a top class coach in football, anywhere on the planet.
the guy was in charge of a great arsenal team but went quite a long looooonngg time without winning anything.
does that mean he's useless and shd not be considered for a nat'l team job?
it's BEYOND absurd.

thank god there are ppl who observe the QUALITY of football, instead of focusing on a set of numbers or existence of a cup that makes or breaks a coach for them !
that's why I say if we open our eyes we'd recognize our QUALITY is not on par with asia's best 4 teams.
yes, we may beat this one, one time, the other, another time. but in REALITY ( oh oh. that word again !! ) they are ahead of us.

football is not restricted to the numbers on the score-sheet or presence/absence of a cup. there's MORE to it.

==============

and the most IRONIC matter is you say you've read what I wrote, yet your reply betrays it.
did you notice how pp struggled with the repeated injuries to their prefered defenders like bagheri ? throughout the season.
did you notice how many times players like sheyss and elong went absconding from training and denizli was forced to play midfielders in defense ( along with strikers' post, btw ).
like noori who was absolutely un-used to defending or ashoubi who was used in defense. or ... .

we come back to what I said. some ppl look at numbers and decide they have understood what's happened during a football match !!!!
the same 4-0 games you mention, I let you know novices like noori would be at fault for at least 2 injured bagheri, rebel sheyss, missing elong, .... .

these are already covered elsewhere w regards to what happened to denilzi's pp. that's why I say you have missed these. otherwise I wouldnt need to repeat them !

===================




again, talking out of ur hat.
he inherited iran's best,... asia's this, ... that means absolutely jack.
REALITY is he inherited a pp that was 9th in the league before him.
REALITY is he inherited a pp that was closed by a faulty and deficient roster by aari haan, who didnt really cover the areas that needed mending at pp: defense and forwards !!!

so pp's reputation means jack sh*t when it doesnt have a defender or a striker to do the job. now, let's say that perspolis is more loved by the whol planet more than barca, madrid, man-ure , milan, ... combined.
so what ?

no wonder when you come up with exactly what branko used to do: concentrate on NAMES !!! the abu or fajr team that has defenders who run and are in the service of their team are far more useful than a more famous TEAM ( and players ) who either dont run, are injured or simply dont turn up for training !
this is typical branko mentality, which doesnt surprise me even a little bit !

here's some news for you: halfway through the seond half of season, denizli wanted to throw elong out after his repeated absence at training. only ansarifard forced him to reverse his decision and not fire the guy. but denizli, as much as it was possible left him out, even if it meant using ashoubi or noori, becoz discipline mattered to him. and the few times he used him, he had no option on the bench !

THIS was what he had to put up with. and you come here and talk about the NAME of pp, and the NAME/FAME of its players, it's reputation and fan base in asia, ... ????
hilarious !
becoz these name/fame/reputation would serve teams only in FANTASIES, buddy. not in REALITY.


again this shows you didnt read and I have to repeat the same stuff !
which becomes quite tiring after a while.

i disagree with u on so many levels here but to give u a brief idea:

1)belgium-france comparison is not similar to iran-japan comparison. yes, if iran was playing maybe sweden, i would say, "ur realistic view" is correct, but iran is playin someone of similar strength more or less. so i would say a better example is france-italy comparison. now, when this comparison is made, how realistic can u get???

2)the stats dont show we are the 5th best team in asia. thats wat ur saying. our quality of football is something subjective, not objective. stats are objective, and stats dont show we are the 5th best team in asia. sorry!

3)about my exmaples, they were many, not just greece, and when "EXCEPTIONS" happen in football on a weekly or monthly basis, it no longer becomes so much of an exmaple. korea tying with maldives, greece beating PORTUGAL TWICE ON THEIR OWN GROUND, england drawing with saudi arabia and lots of reuslts which i can find out for u but im sure u already know that can be considered exceptional. all this aside, again, since iran is more or less on par with japan, its not very far fetched for iran getting a point from japan in japan. atleast the 2005 TM which was on top form with all our legionnaires at their peaks as well in the national team and in their clubs! POINT IS, UR ONLY SPECULATING TO PUT BRANKO DOWN AND SPECULATING HAS NO PLACE IN FOOTBALL! otherwise i can speculate denizli wouldlnt do jack and deliver jack with TM or any other club in iran for that matter!

4)thankgod for people who undrestand FIFA and football federations give awards to results, not beautiful or as u say "quality" football!! when ur not brazil, ur limited and have shortcomings, u have to make decision. u either go for results and actually win a trophy or go for attractive football and conceded 4 goals left and right from every other team but say "YES, I DIDNT WIN ANYTHING IN 5 TOURNAMENTS BUT ATLEAST I PLAYED BEAUTIFUL FOOTBALL. THE FANS GOT TO SEE MY TEAM CONCEDING 4 GOALS IN EVERY MATCH!! "
now a smart team like italy, will go and win trophies the smart way, and become one of the most glorious teams of football, while a team like holland or spain who plays attractive football wins jack for years, but hey, who cares, as long as we are playing "qaulity" football!

and just for the records, QUALITY FOOTBALL IS NOT EQUAL TO "BEAUTIFUL ATTRACTIVE FOOTBALL NO MATTER WAT THE END RESULT!!" thats a flawed definition u use!


5)ur arsene wenger example and my greece example under otto rehagdel, end of the day and many years to come, guess wat will be listed under "merits, awards and glories of the team" ITS TROPHIES AND CHAMPIONSHIPS! greece can boast for the rest of their lives that they actually became euro champions in portugal beating portugal twice on their own turf.
wat can arsenal boast? oh yea, they can write a piece of note on paper and display it on the "vitrin" for their fans: we played beautiful football under arsene wenger in early 2000s but we didnt win anything! congratz man! good for arsenal and its fans who see and undrestand "quality football"!

still, arsene wenger is a great coach, no doubt about that, but then are other coaches who have been more successful than him, who have actually delivered results

6)u talk about bagheri, nouri and elong as if perspolis was the only one having injuries and issues. first of all, all teams had issues and faced injuries. esteghlal played one whole season without jabbari and only choked in last 3 games! saipa had to go wihtout khalili, their best striker being injured for a long time. but these are big teams.
smaller teams have it even more difficult. teams like abu moslem, pegah, fajr who keep losing their key players every season to bigger teams, yet they are able to make it mid table and even upper table?? wat about them??!! ur only trying to justify denizlis short comings by saying perspolis players were only names, perspolis players had injuries, had issues, etc. AS IF OTHER TEAMS DIDNT HAVE SIMILAR OR WORSE SITUATIONS!

7)hehehe, doctor peyman, denizli inherited a PAS WHO HAD WON THE LEAGUE AND QUALIFIED TO ACL UNDER MAJID JALALI! wat did he do?? chera harf az perspolis mizani faghat?? even perspolis signed some great players like nikbakht and elong the season after they came 9th! they might not be the greatest players but they are among the best in iran!
hamchin harf mizani engar baghiye teama, they had a complete squad! they all lacke forwards, defenders, midfielders, GKs! they all had injury and disciplinary issues! but they didnt have hemaayate sazman! they didnt have 3 4 games on their home turf every season! they didnt have 50,000+ fans cheering (or actually jeering them ) in azadi!!!

8)ur exmaple about elong.
first of all, again i repeat, issues with players happens in every team! even smaller teams, players have desciplinary problems. its not only perspolis and denizli dealing with it.
secondly, ashoubi is a DM as well and was one of the best players the season under denizli. so its not like denizli "zarar did" that he played ashoubi instead of elong!

and this is ur mentality, which doesnt surprise me one bit! use ever way, even fantasy to put down branko and justify denizlis short comings! u cant see someone say something positive about branko, or something negative about denizli, in any post, in any forum!
atleast i admit branko had flaws and shortcomings, i didnt agree with him on so many issues,i just supported him because if i didnt have to support him, i had to support someone worse than him!! i think overall, he got a better passing grade than most coaches! a passing grade can be a 70% in an exam, its not the best result, it has 30% errors, but its better than another guy who only passed with a 60% final grade and having 40% error rate!!!


i think i tired u enough but i swear i tried to be as brief as possible! now if ur too tired, u can disregard this post, otherwise...

P.S. its funny u keep saying i reply without reading ur posts WHEN u urself even admitted in this thread below, u havent read the interview of fakhreddin begovich but u nicely put it down and trashed it simply because he was an assisstant of branko! shows how open u and ur mentality is to accepting/changing ur thoughts about branko
http://www.persianfootball.com/forum...ad.php?t=56004

[Doctor DOOM]

-without stretching it further I'll maintain it is very wrong to adopt the "all or none" law in coaching. which is your way of saying the coach who wins a trophy is good and others are not. without seeing what the others have achieved. coz according to this law every season a league or tournament can have one GOOD coach and the others are deemed useless and inferior !!!!!!


- those exception are precisely valid as they remain exceptions.
the meaning of an exception is something that happens very rarely. your view will be correct only if greece wins another 1 or 2 trophies. or maldvies draws another 1-2 biggies like korea. or .... you get the meaning?
it is not a collection of different teams on different occasions.
it's the same team doing it more than once.


- I actually did read begovic's interview and by god if there was ever an interview where someone never took ANY responsibility for their failure and blamed everything on everyone else, it is this one. typical branko-ism, btw.
the whole thing is about pointing the finger at everyone but branko and himself !!! a couple of saints, eh ?


- and paas did quite well in fact.
they advanced in ACL. something that extremely few ( sepahan only, in fact ) iranian clubs have done recently. and became second team at IPL, only due to a slip up and could have easily been the champs.
so I dont see much room for criticism. and that's why I didnt see a need to even mention paas.


-and the talk of "quality of football" came becoz some of you want to push the idea of "denizli didnt win a trophy, so he's useless" which is absurd and has no logical basis. hence the talk about "quality" and capability of a coach.


- I still stand by my belief that "names" dont win games, players do.


- and oh, btw, we are NOT on par with japan. no matter how we try to push the idea.
It is hard for me to swallow too. but the truth is that japan is simply better and superior to us.
that is why I say even getting a draw AT japan, when only ONE team would advance, would be of very low possibility for us.
when was the last time we drew or beat them in japan, in an OFFICIAL game?

[yashar_fasihnia]

-all in saying, its results that matter the most. denizli had 5 opportunities, got nothing. when a coach fails 5 times in 2 years, i dont consider that acceptable. this doesnt mean, every season, only 1 coach is good, and the remaining 15 coaches are not! "twisitng of words" like u said.

-so there is a chance iran japan could have been an exception as well! and agian, i repeat, its not even an exception cos iran and japan are more or less the same power unlike the comparison of greece-euro and korea-maldive. point is, no place for speculations. so i cant buy ur argument about japan A would definitely beat iran A had they played that time.

-pas did well in ACL, but did nothing in hazfi or league the following season.

-dont blame this on me. this was always about branko and lack of quality. dont say i push it. its u who has been putting branko down for lack of "quality" football and only result oriented while denilizi played "quality football" u have been doing this for more than 2 years now!
besides, agian i said, definition of quality football appears to be subjective cos i cant accept the definition ATTRACTIVE FOOTBALL NO MATTER WAT THE RESULT as "quality". the whole purpose of quality in anything is to deliver results.
when u buy quality car, u dont buy it cos how attractive it looks, u buy it cos how well it delivers!

- i agree with names dont win, players do. however, it seems i disagree with u on who u classify as names, and who u dont.

thanx for ur time anywyaz!

[Doctor DOOM]

u'r most welcome, mate.

[maij]

Ali jan , Peyman jan..

While there are many points that we agree upon , I think the fundamental difference between you guys argument and mine , is two major disagreements.

1- Your emphasis on the coaches as the main reason of failures.
2- Your assumptions that certain tactics or team line-up would have yielded better results.

On the first point , I doubt that I will ever change my mind. YES , coaches like players , referees and administrators do make mistakes and sometimes these mistakes are vital. But when do we know if it is a mistake ?? It is after the event. That makes it is easy enough for the likes of us to start bombarding them with criticism or going to the extreme and calling them incompetent.

On the second issue , you could be right and you could be very wrong. Theories and possibilities than can never be proved. The only thing I can say in defense of the coaches , is that using or not using a certain player depends wholly on the way he is reading the game and the opposition or circumstances beyond his control. You will be surprised what some players say or do when asked to play a certain role. From my experience with Team Melli , some players REALLY lack professional attitude and the sense of playing for the team rather than themselves.

As far as Daei goes, I think I have said and made my point very clear. He IS a national asset and people like him should be promoted, encouraged , and supported, else Iran will lag behind in their national coaches cadre.

If Qatar or UAE utilize foreign expertise , it is for a good reason.
Iran , while you all claim has the potential and expect results at the highest level, must have potentials in coaches as well as players. How can a nation produce good players but not good coaches??? There is a flaw in this thinking.

How many good potentials such as Alidoosti , Darakhshan , Peyous were ignored and how many more shall we dismiss because of the obsession with anything "Khareji" in Iranian culture??

If we do not believe in our own , we do not deserve to progress.

You can give me 1000 excuses against Daei starting from politics to his attire , but we seem to miss the fundamental issues. We are talking about self-beleief here.

There is another angle to this foreign thing. While the evils are ganging up against Iran and boycotting it left , right & center not to mention the western media propaganda that has always painted a bleak picture about the country , I really don't blame the IFF for preferring a native coach whose heart & mind is with the team and country rather than mercenaries with priorities being how to inflate their bank accounts.

[Martin-Reza]

Indeed it is an interesting fact and rather funny that Daei and his alledged involvement in coaching decisions was by many seen as one of the main reasons for the so called failure in WC and now he has become headcoach after a confusion period after WC.

I personally never shared this view anyway...

[RaginG Inferno]

Daei never had any role in the coaching decisions under Branko. There is certainly no evidence for such claims.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan , Peyman jan..

While there are many points that we agree upon , I think the fundamental difference between you guys argument and mine , is two major disagreements.

1- Your emphasis on the coaches as the main reason of failures.
2- Your assumptions that certain tactics or team line-up would have yielded better results.



If Qatar or UAE utilize foreign expertise , it is for a good reason.

majid jan, let me address the two factors you mentioned separately.

1- I agree in failures there are multiple factors involved. some have more influence, some less. so we cant generalize it. therefore we can go case by case and see what went wrong and what could have been done to avoid the failure or divert it.
now, in our WC games' case the factor with MOST influence was branko's coaching. I've gone over the various factors and issues that COULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to put in players who are physically fit irrespective of their names.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to make sure players keep up with a proper physical training regimen, otherwise they're not going to play.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to think about & have contingency plans in case his favorite players dont perform.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to set the right formation based on the capabilities of HIS PLAYERS ( not what he sees at bayern or madrid !!! )

- it IS the coach's responsibility to adopt a defensive or offensive formation & tactics depending on the needs of a game.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to take out and replace players who are NOT performing, even if their name carries humongous weight.

- it IS the coach's responsibility to come up with counter tactics when your team has lost all initiative and is on the back foot.

- it IS the coach's responsibility ....


--------------


and in case of certain tactics & line ups, the coach has the MOST influence on these too.

as for the line up, surely you dont think players choose who to play and who shd sit on the bench. so the line up is easily 99% coach's responsibility. no doubt about this one.
when you dont choose the right or fit players, you have nobody but urself to blame in case of failure. you cant argue with this logic.


as for tactics, again it is the coach who decides the style and nature of tactics; defensive, offensive, holding game, .... etc.
yes, players also have to bear the responsibility in this as the implementation of these tactics is their duty. but when they show they are not able to implement them, the football rules have given an instrument to the coaches to rectify this: primarily, choosing a proper line up. secondarily, substitution. even shuffling players & formation on the pitch can be a tertiary option.


so, yes, I still say with better line ups, better subbing and better tactics ( before and during the game ) CHANCES OF A TEAM UPPING THEIR PERFORMANCE ARE QUITE HIGH.
I'm not saying it WILL happen as none of us can know what EXACTLY would happen in speculative situations. but LOGIC says the chances of a better performance would be HIGHER. and that's all I'm saying.

------------------

and thirdly, your point on countries hiring good foreign coaches.

maybe it is becoz they have realized a coach has such a MAJOR role in the fate of their teams? no ?
coz if the coach's role was not as significant in making or breaking of a team's fortunes, then why would so many countries spend so much money on a factor not high in significance ? are they stark raving mad ?

which, in fact, answers your first question on the two points you mentioned early in your post here.

cheers

[Doctor DOOM]

Daei never had any role in the coaching decisions under Branko. There is certainly no evidence for such claims.

I agree.
anyone who think daei dictated matters at TM must be out of his mind.

I think fans have seen branko and co discussing matters with Daei and immediately jump to conclusions. they ought to understand a captain's role is far more than just a player on the pitch.
he is the leader of the team, a semi-coach if you will, on the pitch.
and coaches always take senior captains' words and consultations.


if daei came out looking untouchable or controlling, getting fixed in the team despite his sub-par performances or getting called up and played constantly, no matter how useless a game ... it's not HIS fault.
it is the responsibility of the coach who shd be more diligent and wise in picking the right players based on the CORRECT CRITERIA ( fitness, usefulness ) and according to different situations .

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan , Peyman jan..

While there are many points that we agree upon , I think the fundamental difference between you guys argument and mine , is two major disagreements.

1- Your emphasis on the coaches as the main reason of failures.
2- Your assumptions that certain tactics or team line-up would have yielded better results.

......

Please see my original post below. Where in that, i suggest anything negative toward Daie?

I am questioning the selection process and if there is any fault in that, it is with IFF and meddeling of Mr. Aliabdi and politicains in the head coach selection process.
My other concern is this selection at this time (Daie won't have any time to experiment with the team and has to play WC qualifiers) if the team doesn't do well, can harm his future in Iranian football in the long run.

I have reservation toward Mr. Daie and time will show if this was a good selection or not. However, we all accept the fact that he is the coach and needs to be supported and no negativity be created around the team.
Now I hope this doesn't mean that we have to Madh and Sana him all the time. We can analyze his performance as club coach, or in TM and even do constructive criticizem (which I even wont' do, to not get balemd as Anti Daie at least for 6 months).
Why there is this culture of any kind of criticizem or disagreement means we are against someone. During Khomaini every one had to be in the "Khate Emam" and during Shah, it was Khoda Shah Meehan.

One can have disagreement, reservation toward an idea, a perosn, a trend and still overall support that trend.

I supported Mr. GN when he was at the helm. Does this mean, I agreed with this PR techniques in the TV (during the interview with Maylei) or the way he treated Mazdak Mirzaai despite everything (absolutely not). I am not that naive to treat Daie, GN, or even Khomaini, Shah, Bush, or whoever in the present and future.

I support someone like Daie now that he is the head coach despite how bad selection process was, the same I did for Mr. GN (his selection process as a matter of fact was flawed as well. But at least in his case they brought a whole bunch of people in a room and people discussed it. Not liek current selection. (please see the video link I posted in this thread when Daie talks about how he got selected himself).

All of that in under the bridge now and I fully support Mr. Daie since he is the head coach of Iran now. What differs between us it seems to me is the fact that althought you not saying it explicitly is: because Daie has done X and Y during his footballing days, we need to fully proud of him (which we are with different degrees of course), and kind of don't see or focus on certain elements (selection process, the fact that there are so much anti Daie emotions in the society as under current).

I on the other hand have no problem to support him now that he is selceted but I resever the right to say selction process is flawed and based on certain logical facts (worry about potential hasheeyeh) if the team doesn't play well or doesn't get result the first few games.
Please read again my post above. Where in that there is anything against Daie? It talks about Selection process being flawed, Daie has baggage and my concern that due to his baggage if the team doesn't do well, Hasheeyeh will be created. Can you show me how any of these poinst are agaist Mr. Daie or negative ?

Majid Jaan;
Thanks for the dialogue. It seems we are saying the same thing and it is like that movie lost in traslation.
........

Summary of my position toward Mr. Daie's coaching in the TM[/SIZE][/B]As for Daie, I have no ill feeling toward him and I am not naive to make him a pure evil or an angel.

1. My concern is very simple, his selection process as more evidence comes out (see the video link I posted earlier) seems to be very flawed and was based on other factors ( at least the routine process of asking for the long term and short term program wasn't followed). Based on what Mr. Daie said, his first meeting with Kafasheeyan was about management job in the TM and he flatly rejected it. They never asked him for a long term or short term program for the TM. Which means he was never even considered in the first place). Since asking for a long term and short term and success and failuer criteria from a coach prospect is a very routine process. Even I went through that in my high school and youth coaching (application process).This will aggreviate the whole suspicion that right or wrong exists around Daie.
2. Another issue is the fact that Mr. Daie has a "baggage" with him right or wrong, just or unjust. If team is successful all will be kiss and hug and everything will be under the bridge.
3. God forbid if the team isn't successful, I beleive the hasheeyeh will be magnified by a factor 100 if team goes through a touch patch.
4. I never claimed I know how Daie will perform in th TM. Who the hell I am to claim that? As I said, I will give Mr. Daie at least 6 months to judge his performance and see how he faces problems and solves them.

The above four points summarizes my position toward Mr. Daie's coaching in the TM. Do you agree or disagree with this these points?

[zzgloo]

The Iranian Football ,perhaps, should never be compaired with ,top european countries'...........
How ever, we may see some parrarells...
Portugal, with thier impresive showing,during the last WC, have only qualified for the WC, 4 times !!................
England , with a reletive success in the last WC, have done misrebely on 4 previouse ocations !!!!............
I wonder, what the media, and fans of those football teams, talked and wrote about during all those failieres !!!
Was it, thier coachings ?....players' selections ?.....Organizations ?....limitations?.......Poletics?......
MMMMMMMMMM?
Or the other way around !, could it be that ,the reason that Germany always seem to be in good shape, Is not because of only thier football, but also it is because of thier total efficiencies on all matters that could influence it ?
.................................................. ..............
We are bound to mix and live with our system........God help us !!