Bagheri, koja'ee ke yadet be kheir

[Doctor DOOM]

No. it is not the present bagheri I'm talking about.
it is the karim bagheri of 1997-2000 period.
the player who was one of our most lethal players becoz he was always at the right place at the right time, doing the RIGHT THINGS.

Now, we may have highly skillful midfielders, who do one or at best 2 of the above things, but none do all 3 !!!

I just finished watching saipa's ACL game , after finishing sepahan's disastrous display. also having kept TM's recent performances in mind, I was reminded of how sorely we miss a player with the capabilities of bagheri of 97-2000 era.

a midfielder whose shooting (1) was just a dangerous factor all by itself. I wish there was a statistic of how many long range shots we used to have during those years, but I sure as hell know today's abysmal stats are nowhere near those.
in today's 2 games I hardly saw one long ranger attempted ! why?
it was pathetic , and for fans like us, very nerve-wracking. becoz there was sepahan who were trailing the game and didnt have any idea how to penetrate the packed syrian defense. and they didnt even attempt one of the sure-fire methods in such games: long range shooting.

but long range shooting requires practice. you cant just whack the ball just like that. you've got to have a couple of midfielders who daily practice this and have some accuracy to make these shots count.
if the ball doesnt go in, it forces the keeper to parry and maybe give our forwards a chance on the rebounds.
but today? nothing ! not a freaking thing !!!
PATHETIC !

then there's the matter of a player who collects the second balls(2), the deflected ones ( by opponent's defense or GK ) who hovers around the outside the opponent 18 and pounces on the loose balls or deflected ones.
Bagheri used these very well. mainly becoz he used to READ the game well. and expected such balls. and either shot them or gave a through pass or ... etc. generally creating a dangerous moment.
these days we dont have many of our teams covering these areas well to the extent to do something with these balls directly. at best, some collect the ball and pass laterally !!!!


and finally, he was so active that at times we saw him parallel to our center forward or even overtaking him in his surges(3) forward. these days we do NOT see anyone of our midfielders do this !


- these days we have ppl like nekunam who once in a while shoots with average accuracy and this happens too far in between. comes in to collect balls but isnt active enough.

- teymoorian who is very active and may be able to cover the area outside 18, but doesnt have the skills or shooting ability to CREATE something out of it !

- karimi who doesnt shoot well, isnt all that active either.
- jabbari is active and a good passer, but leaves a lot to be desired in shooting.
- same with shojaei.
- mobaali isnt as active and adventurous and doesnt surge forward, while he has good shooting ability.
- sadeghi is totally out of form.
- navidkia if on those RARE days that he is fit, isnt a good shooter either, nor is he active in surges.

I dont see anyone in our club games either to do this well !!
so what is the problem here? when we have such a clear and recent role model to shape some of our midfielders, why dont we use it?

I do miss that bagheri ...... A LOT !

[The-Red]

yap, we surely miss a player of his caliber in TM now.

[Nokhodi]

His tackling skills were also excellent and he was physically in very good shape. He would not fall down like many of our players now do when challenging other players and of course his shots were always dangerous and bloody hard.

Its really a shame he couldn't get used to England and the bad luck he had, because he could have been great in Charlton.

[yashar_fasihnia]

yadesh bekheyr...
he could shoot, head, tackle, cover large field area, lead the team, keep his calm, pass, cross, win physical challenges and score!
noone in iran at the moment can do half the things he did when he was in his prime

[Doctor DOOM]

yadesh bekheyr...
he could shoot, head, tackle, cover large field area, lead the team, keep his calm, pass, cross, win physical challenges and score!

..... which makes for a COMPLETE FOOTBALL PLAYER

I agree. no1 is even CLOSE to him !!!

[Paradigm]

No. it is not the present bagheri I'm talking about.
it is the karim bagheri of 1997-2000 period.
the player who was one of our most lethal players becoz he was always at the right place at the right time, doing the RIGHT THINGS.

Now, we may have highly skillful midfielders, who do one or at best 2 of the above things, but none do all 3 !!!

I just finished watching saipa's ACL game , after finishing sepahan's disastrous display. also having kept TM's recent performances in mind, I was reminded of how sorely we miss a player with the capabilities of bagheri of 97-2000 era.

a midfielder whose shooting (1) was just a dangerous factor all by itself. I wish there was a statistic of how many long range shots we used to have during those years, but I sure as hell know today's abysmal stats are nowhere near those.
in today's 2 games I hardly saw one long ranger attempted ! why?
it was pathetic , and for fans like us, very nerve-wracking. becoz there was sepahan who were trailing the game and didnt have any idea how to penetrate the packed syrian defense. and they didnt even attempt one of the sure-fire methods in such games: long range shooting.

but long range shooting requires practice. you cant just whack the ball just like that. you've got to have a couple of midfielders who daily practice this and have some accuracy to make these shots count.
if the ball doesnt go in, it forces the keeper to parry and maybe give our forwards a chance on the rebounds.
but today? nothing ! not a freaking thing !!!
PATHETIC !

then there's the matter of a player who collects the second balls(2), the deflected ones ( by opponent's defense or GK ) who hovers around the outside the opponent 18 and pounces on the loose balls or deflected ones.
Bagheri used these very well. mainly becoz he used to READ the game well. and expected such balls. and either shot them or gave a through pass or ... etc. generally creating a dangerous moment.
these days we dont have many of our teams covering these areas well to the extent to do something with these balls directly. at best, some collect the ball and pass laterally !!!!


and finally, he was so active that at times we saw him parallel to our center forward or even overtaking him in his surges(3) forward. these days we do NOT see anyone of our midfielders do this !


- these days we have ppl like nekunam who once in a while shoots with average accuracy and this happens too far in between. comes in to collect balls but isnt active enough.

- teymoorian who is very active and may be able to cover the area outside 18, but doesnt have the skills or shooting ability to CREATE something out of it !

- karimi who doesnt shoot well, isnt all that active either.
- jabbari is active and a good passer, but leaves a lot to be desired in shooting.
- same with shojaei.
- mobaali isnt as active and adventurous and doesnt surge forward, while he has good shooting ability.
- sadeghi is totally out of form.
- navidkia if on those RARE days that he is fit, isnt a good shooter either, nor is he active in surges.

I dont see anyone in our club games either to do this well !!
so what is the problem here? when we have such a clear and recent role model to shape some of our midfielders, why dont we use it?

I do miss that bagheri ...... A LOT !

Dr D check out http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=565519 for some good clips.

[maij]

Bagheri has not lost all those attribute that he Doc nicely put.

Last time I watched him playing against Pas , he displayed many of those skills. Of course the age factor and the more defensive role he is assigned to him , curtails his desire to surge forward and his explosive shots.

Bagheri remains an icon in Iran's history book. He is still one of my all time favorite players. A Gentleman a dedicated player and overall skills that you hardly find in the current crop of players.

[Doctor DOOM]

One other factor shd be mentioned though, when we talk about those years.

those were the years TM was as offensive in football as Howard Stern is to a nun. the whole team had an attacking mentality. and the style and formation suited this mentality also. the coach ( MK ) also preferred such offensive attitude and style.
so everything worked perfectly to create such players, give room for their attacking nature.

look at the team:
apart from the GK and a couple of defenders, we had
Khakpoor ( who used to help in set pieces , taking or receiving them . even start offensive moves with long & diagonal balls)
Zarincheh who was lively as hell on the wings
minavand who was Mr. Consistency for quite a few years down the left.
bagheri
estili was highly active and a work-horse both in offense and defense
kia shaping up to be a major force ( after the hic-up start of AC96 )
No need to even go over the great pairing of azizi & daei up front

even the subsequent additions during this period, to the team suited this style: yazdani, pashazadeh, shahroodi, khaziravi, dinmohamadi, mansoorian ... . and they had no choice but to be offensive minded to stay in the team.

when this team took to the field, we KNEW goals are coming. yes, some candidates were the obvious ones like daei, azizi & bagheri. but the rest also had the same mentality and approach.
That team simply reveled and enjoyed running at the oppositions all guns blazing.
they were not held back by the coach or formation or tactics.

so within such a set up, it was easy to let such offensive talents ( like bagheri's ) to blossom. I doubt today, even if bagheri was what he was at 22, would perform that well or do what he did then. in today's TM it is almost impossible, becoz of the half-hearted ( half-arsed is more like it ) attempt to change its nature !!


( it's just too much to bear when we see this team with such mentality and style slowly was ( unsuccessfully ) MUTATED into a defensive one in later years !!!! .... something that goes against our natural style of football !
and we ended up falling in between the stools ! we lost our teeth, and never really became efficient in defending either !!!
( I know who to blame for this anyway. but this thread is not about that total-waste-of-oxygen. goor-e pedarsh o jadd o abaadesh )

[maij]

It is all about the mentality of the coach , whether he is defensive minded or offensive plus what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

Recently , Team Melli and Iran in general , lacked proper defensive players and system. Goalkeepers are a well documented problem as well. So, as a fan I would love to see an all-out attacking team , but exposing the back to counter attacks has proved to be a serious problem specially with teams like Syria or most of the Arab teams. They score one goal against the run of the play , and sit on that lead for the rest of the match.

I am more convinced now to build a solid defense as a priority , before going into the all attack mode, while Team Melli at the present time , suffers from lacks the qualities of the previous generation.

[Ali Chicago]

.... what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

...

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. Up to 98 he was good in the air. Not great in European standards but very good. He was ok on free kicks as well. But he lacked in many dimensions as a forward. His ball protection was really really weak. His turning with the ball was non-existant. He really lacks speed. I mean he is below par when it comes to speed. Ability to beat his defender in one on one non-existant.

The above assesment I gave from Mr. Daie is after 1998. I only could watch Mr. Daie from the 98 WC qualification against Australia. I can honestly say not a single game since then, I saw him to be a dominant player. I didn't see the 6-2 game against South Korea the game he scored 4 in 1996. That is what I call dominant player. Same way the Abedzadeh was a dominant player in Melborne against Australia. From movies I saw from those days before 98 , Daie was thinner and way faster. But since 98 (that I was able to watch him on TV outside Iran), Daie was never a dominant player. In the game against Australia or all three games in the WC 98 he wasn't a factor and the trend continues until last year.

Bayern bought him and used him only for his aerial abilities. In case where other tactics failed, he was one gun (aerial attack) in their arsenal. That is why he didn't get many games in Bayern. Don't forget Daie and Minavand, didn't even last 6 months in Alshabab and people say UAE league sucks. Whereas players like Majidi, Mobali and Samereh lasted several years in UAE league.

Begheri was different though. I am so surprised to see this attempt to bring Daie as a superb player. He was the first Iranian player in recent years to play in Europe (although before him) Reza Adelkhani played in Germany back in 70s and then came to Iran. But besides that, I think Daie' role and impact in Iranian football is overly exaggerated.

I know, this post my raise feathers, but truth needs to be told, even if it isn't popular. Somebody has to say "Emperor has no cloths on".

[Doctor DOOM]

It is all about the mentality of the coach , whether he is defensive minded or offensive plus what resources he has at his disposal. The likes of Bagheri and Daei are not available all the time.

Recently , Team Melli and Iran in general , lacked proper defensive players and system. Goalkeepers are a well documented problem as well. So, as a fan I would love to see an all-out attacking team , but exposing the back to counter attacks has proved to be a serious problem specially with teams like Syria or most of the Arab teams. They score one goal against the run of the play , and sit on that lead for the rest of the match.

I agree.
but then again, if we have a well-oiled attacking team, even if a team like syria scores early into a game and wants to sit back and defend, a team that attacks well and is productive, will score and score far more.

But this is a common clash of philosophies among coaches all over.
neither is wrong.
it's just some ppl like to build a team on a strong defensive line, secure and reliable. and others believe the best defense is offense.
both work. and both have flaws.


but the only thing that tips the balance in "attack" side is that inherently iranian players like an attacking game tinged with some ball skills and technical/individual flare. our natural style of football is more attacking than a defensive one.
so players feel more comfortable when they fit into a team that flows in that direction.

my other point is the result of that (cursed) move to make our football more defensive. neither the players played comfortably in that system. the formation never suited us and players never really adapted well to that one. but also they were slowly pulled away from their natural style as well.
which ended up with TM being in what we now see: aash-e shole ghalamkaar ! it's neither sweet, nor salty ! and in the end, it's been leaving a bad taste in the mouth .... even in those rare victories !

I mean it is un-natural to force a brazilian team ( not comparing qualitatively, but merely pointing at the nature of football ) play a defensive game. Perreira tried. but that was some abomination that never looked like brazil and was quickly done away with and brazil got back to its nature and basics: attacking football.

neither can we see Italians suddenly displaying an overall attacking football. no. what we see from them is they attack ONLY WHEN they are solid in the back.
and that is very different from brazil attacking becoz they are an attacking team and that's what they do BEST.

[Doctor DOOM]

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. ...............

Ali jan, I agree and disagree.

yes, daei in the beginning was a player great in the air and that's it !
but after going to europe, his determination and hunger to learn, to be the best HE COULD be transformed him into another daei.

Daei V1 - excellent heading. good in shooting. sucked in passing. sucked in ball control. didnt do much in freekicks.

Daei V2 - very good in heading. passing improved drastically. free-kicks improved drastically. hell, even his ball carrying wasnt as bad as before. I swear I once or twice saw him dribble a player too . I swear.


and I attribute this overall improvement to his dedication and positive mentality ( borne out of his education level ) that made him learn about his weaknesses and attempt to overcome them.
now, how many players do you see go through such drastic transformations? not many. in fact that is extremely rare.
nowadays what we see from a player is what we'll get for the rest of his playing career, with little bit added here and a bit there. that's all. dorost meegam ya na?

look at our "supposedly best player in recent years", karimi.
what is he doing differently from 5-6 or 8 years back?
the same dribbling. that's it.
he only was forced to work harder and help the defense BECOZ of bayern. and he added that little bit extra to his game. but then again, we dont see him apply that all that much anyway. coz the guy still plays a lazy, indifferent style of football !

Kia. another great player.
apart from the NATURAL progress seen in his style of football, and he has mastered that very well, what NEW things we see in his game? almost nothing.

in fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with a player who had such a palpable improvement & addition of skills ! everyone at best has improved on what they already had. only !

[zzgloo]

I totally agree with your comment about it all depends on players a coach has at his disposal. But I think you are way way over estimating Dai'e ability as a football player. Dai'e as a forward (after 98 that I was able to watch him) had one dimension ok 1.5 dimension maybe. Up to 98 he was good in the air. Not great in European standards but very good. He was ok on free kicks as well. But he lacked in many dimensions as a forward. His ball protection was really really weak. His turning with the ball was non-existant. He really lacks speed. I mean he is below par when it comes to speed. Ability to beat his defender in one on one non-existant.
The above assesment I gave from Mr. Daie is after 1998. I only could watch Mr. Daie from the 98 WC qualification against Australia. I can honestly say not a single game since then, I saw him to be a dominant player. I didn't see the 6-2 game against South Korea the game he scored 4 in 1996. That is what I call dominant player. Same way the Abedzadeh was a dominant player in Melborne against Australia. From movies I saw from those days before 98 , Daie was thinner and way faster. But since 98 (that I was able to watch him on TV outside Iran), Daie was never a dominant player. In the game against Australia or all three games in the WC 98 he wasn't a factor and the trend continues until last year.
Bayern bought him and used him only for his aerial abilities. In case where other tactics failed, he was one gun (aerial attack) in their arsenal. That is why he didn't get many games in Bayern. Don't forget Daie and Minavand, didn't even last 6 months in Alshabab and people say UAE league sucks. Whereas players like Majidi, Mobali and Samereh lasted several years in UAE league.
Begheri was different though. I am so surprised to see this attempt to bring Daie as a superb player. He was the first Iranian player in recent years to play in Europe (although before him) Reza Adelkhani played in Germany back in 70s and then came to Iran. But besides that, I think Daie' role and impact in Iranian football is overly exaggerated.
I know, this post my raise feathers, but truth needs to be told, even if it isn't popular. Somebody has to say "Emperor has no cloths on".

Ali jaan,,,,,, the 1.5 dimension Daei possesed , was the dimensions, we have always historicaly lacked !!1
His take command athitude, and aireal talents, were, and are what we have always needed to be a complete team !
We always , see even Hashemian, with all his talents, get lost in the opponant's back field....because of that take command athitude, and " GHOLDORI ", which daei had !.......he, as you said, was not a complete player, yet he was what we needed and need.

Actualy, Branko believed, even a " Dead " Daei is better than rest of what we can offer !
In my HP, center forward, is the secound most important position on the field after Goal keeping.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jan, I agree and disagree.

yes, daei in the beginning was a player great in the air and that's it !
but after going to europe, his determination and hunger to learn, to be the best HE COULD be transformed him into another daei.

Daei V1 - excellent heading. good in shooting. sucked in passing. sucked in ball control. didnt do much in freekicks.

Daei V2 - very good in heading. passing improved drastically. free-kicks improved drastically. hell, even his ball carrying wasnt as bad as before. I swear I once or twice saw him dribble a player too . I swear.


and I attribute this overall improvement to his dedication and positive mentality ( borne out of his education level ) that made him learn about his weaknesses and attempt to overcome them.
now, how many players do you see go through such drastic transformations? not many. in fact that is extremely rare.
nowadays what we see from a player is what we'll get for the rest of his playing career, with little bit added here and a bit there. that's all. dorost meegam ya na?

look at our "supposedly best player in recent years", karimi.
what is he doing differently from 5-6 or 8 years back?
the same dribbling. that's it.
he only was forced to work harder and help the defense BECOZ of bayern. and he added that little bit extra to his game. but then again, we dont see him apply that all that much anyway. coz the guy still plays a lazy, indifferent style of football !

Kia. another great player.
apart from the NATURAL progress seen in his style of football, and he has mastered that very well, what NEW things we see in his game? almost nothing.

in fact I'm finding it difficult to come up with a player who had such a palpable improvement & addition of skills ! everyone at best has improved on what they already had. only !

Ali jaan,,,,,, the 1.5 dimension Daei possesed , was the dimensions, we have always historicaly lacked !!1
His take command athitude, and aireal talents, were, and are what we have always needed to be a complete team !
We always , see even Hashemian, with all his talents, get lost in the opponant's back field....because of that take command athitude, and " GHOLDORI ", which daei had !.......he, as you said, was not a complete player, yet he was what we needed and need.
Actualy, Branko believed, even a " Dead " Daei is better than rest of what we can offer !
In my HP, center forward, is the secound most important position on the field after Goal keeping.

Gentelmen;

Payman Jaan Goal;

If you like I can bring you text book defenition from footballo coaching classes and show Mr. Daie in most of the catagories was sub par. DD talks about his shooting!!! I am not a statisticians but I persoanlly don't recall any spectacular shots from him (at least 5 or more out of 108 or whateveer goals he scored). Last shooting goal I remember was against Saudi Arabia in Jaddeh for Wc 2002 qaulification on a free kick. After 98 that I was able to watch Daie he was never a super star in the air either. And he was below par in
controling the ball,
Turning with ball
Beating his defender one on one
Speed
Finishing touches
making the runs to create space for his complimentary forward
Controlling a hard pass and bringing the ball under control and make a one touch pass to his team mates.


Bahram Jaan, Take Command and Aerial ability!!! We had a center forwards with had aerial abilites and were much better finisher than Daie. To list three, let's start with Homayoon Behzadi Sar Talayee, Gholamhossein Mazloomi, to a lesse degree Parviza Mazloomi and then Gholam Fathabadi, I can add to this list Nasser Nooriye (but sicne he played for Homa, he never came into the eyes of fans and papers much).

Take command attitude of Daie maybe was good at times, but the same attitude kept a generation of Iranian forwards, like Borhani, Ali Moosavi, Khatibi, Enayati, Ooldai, Akbarpoor, Rajab Zadeh, Samereh, out of the TM. The same attitude alomst cost us Vahid Hashemaian as well. And now people say TM doesn't have a good center forward. Bunch of people that either are Mamoor and getting paid and a bunch that can be emotioanlly manipulated in the game against Syria "scream his name from the stands when the tm doesn't score" while forgetting Ali Daie and Branko both are in big part responsible for this drought we have in center forward position.

Golmohamadi left the TM, so many others left TM as well. But Daie never left TM, had Iran been semi successful in WC 2006, bet you he still would have been around. So please dont' talk about his take command attitude. The same so called "take command" attitude and his connections, is in big part responsible for the current drought in the center forward position.

[zzgloo]

Gentelmen;
Payman Jaan Goal;
If you like I can bring you text book defenition from footballo coaching classes and show Mr. Daie in most of the catagories was sub par. DD talks about his shooting!!! I am not a statisticians but I persoanlly don't recall any spectacular shots from him (at least 5 or more out of 108 or whateveer goals he scored). Last shooting goal I remember was against Saudi Arabia in Jaddeh for Wc 2002 qaulification on a free kick. After 98 that I was able to watch Daie he was never a super star in the air either. And he was below par in
controling the ball,
Turning with ball
Beating his defender one on one
Speed
Finishing touches
making the runs to create space for his complimentary forward
Controlling a hard pass and bringing the ball under control and make a one touch pass to his team mates.
Bahram Jaan, Take Command and Aerial ability!!! We had a center forwards with had aerial abilites and were much better finisher than Daie. To list three, let's start with Homayoon Behzadi Sar Talayee, Gholamhossein Mazloomi, to a lesse degree Parviza Mazloomi and then Gholam Fathabadi, I can add to this list Nasser Nooriye (but sicne he played for Homa, he never came into the eyes of fans and papers much).
Take command attitude of Daie maybe was good at times, but the same attitude kept a generation of Iranian forwards, like Borhani, Ali Moosavi, Khatibi, Enayati, Ooldai, Akbarpoor, Rajab Zadeh, Samereh, out of the TM. The same attitude alomst cost us Vahid Hashemaian as well. And now people say TM doesn't have a good center forward. Bunch of people that either are Mamoor and getting paid and a bunch that can be emotioanlly manipulated in the game against Syria "scream his name from the stands when the tm doesn't score" while forgetting Ali Daie and Branko both are in big part responsible for this drought we have in center forward position.
Golmohamadi left the TM, so many others left TM as well. But Daie never left TM, had Iran been semi successful in WC 2006, bet you he still would have been around. So please dont' talk about his take command attitude. The same so called "take command" attitude and his connections, is in big part responsible for the current drought in the center forward position.

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !