Bagheri, koja'ee ke yadet be kheir

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !

I never said Daie didnt' have a talent, the man was a great footballer. But if you read my post, I say since 1988 that I was able to watch him, he wasn't a great player (again since 19998 I stress).

There are very good players and they are Great players. Saeed Maraghecheeyan, Ebraheem Ghasempoor, Nazari, Eskandarian, Iran Solaymani, Hossein Kalani, Ismayel Hajrahimipoor, Ali Jabbari, Gholam Fathabadi were good players.

But Gheelecch overall was a great player, Nasser Hejazi, Parvin or Hassan Rowshan, Ali Karimi.

IMO Daie was never in the same accolade as great players in Iran. He moved to Germany (during the era of reform in Iran) where Europe was much more open toward Iran and there was a better Federation in Place and somehow he got undue credit IMO.

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

People called him the best player in Iran and blah blah, which isn't true. No one says there is a complete player. But Ali Daie as a forward has serious shortcoming for a forward. His finishing was poor IMO. Someone like Gholamhosseiin Mazloomi and even Khalili have much better sense for finishing than him. Rowshan was the best example of a great ball handler and a great finisher. Being a finisher has a mental spiritubal capacity to remain calm. As an example, Ali Daie missed key penalties against SS and his shennanigen against Shays is an example of his temper (which isn't a great example of calmness). Compare Toni in Bayern Munich today, that is a finisher. Even Ali Samerh and Reza Enayati are much better finisher than Ali Daie ( I saw since 1988).

For your second point, Ali Daie can't invite himself to the TM, but Ali Daie knew how to game the system and influence the system. Even today he does. Look at his interview in Navad and see the amount of blind self egotistical pride he expresses, when he says he wants nothing to do in TM but the head coaching job. To you it may come as a desire, to me it is a flase self centerisem. Ali Daie used his influence in TM and manipulated an incompetent, theocratic federation in order to get to the meaningless record of 108 goal scorer or whatever it was in the world. While Branko, Dadkan role were very important in him playin full 90 minutes in the TM, him using different techniques for influencing the system is undeniable.

Even if Branko invited him, he himself isn't blind or stupid, he could see he isn't a 90 minute player. There are many many players that they themselvs announced retirements for the TM (Bargheri, Roberto Carlos,....). Why Ali Daie didn't not do that. Daie playing 90 minutes even in shitty games like Laos or Guam or the team we scored 17 against (in order to get the meaningless record of the most goal scorrer in the world) destroyed the next generation of Iranian forwards, that is a fact, not an opinion.


I have promised myself to support TM and Mr. Daie as its head coach, so I don't want to continue this debate (it undermines the headcoach of our TM at present). So I suggest we don't continue this anymore. Suffice to say, I see things differently from you, but let's hold on to this for the next 6 months, let the TM, make the first round of the qualifications, if you want we can debate this again after that.

Merci for your time Payman Jaan. I always enjoy reading your posts and have a dialogue with you, but right now there are important issues in front of the TM.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan......lets clarify what is it we are talking about.......
I know, you do not mean daei had no talents,......and I believe, you mostly are concerened that his extended playing time might have hurt the developement of other forwards !!!.............Is that what you are saying ?
As for not haveing all the talents...I must say, almost all players are short in something !
I also , think, Ali Daei, was short in talents in many areas....as his body language, was like he seldom lokked at the ball,or the ground..as his head and chest were always up, and gave that impression, he might stumble on the ball under his foot !,yet that made him pay more attention to what was going on on the air !
one thing about ali daei we should never, ever,understimate..is the fact, that he has scored more goal than any human being in total history !!
that alone, is indication of something right and special !!, and no accident !
If you recall.
1- hassan Roshan, hardly knew how to head the ball.
2- the speed of ali parvin, or his heading ability was non-existant.
3- ghechikhani,also was stiff,and not much of dribbller.
......................
And finaly................Ali Daei's extended playing on the field, IMHO, should never be blamed on him !

I never said Daie didnt' have a talent, the man was a great footballer. But if you read my post, I say since 1988 that I was able to watch him, he wasn't a great player (again since 19998 I stress).

There are very good players and they are Great players. Saeed Maraghecheeyan, Ebraheem Ghasempoor, Nazari, Eskandarian, Iran Solaymani, Hossein Kalani, Ismayel Hajrahimipoor, Ali Jabbari, Gholam Fathabadi were good players.

But Gheelecch overall was a great player, Nasser Hejazi, Parvin or Hassan Rowshan, Ali Karimi.

IMO Daie was never in the same accolade as great players in Iran. He moved to Germany (during the era of reform in Iran) where Europe was much more open toward Iran and there was a better Federation in Place and somehow he got undue credit IMO.

Ali jan,

I dont think ANYONE here thinks daei is a complete player. yes, he does have shortcomings in many areas, such as ball skills and pace. which sort of answers many of ur points up there.

but by god, you cant be serious when you bring up "finishing". are you?
if anything he has shown he was a pretty good finisher.
that's like saying ronaldinho cant control the ball !!!
or Buffon cant catch a ball !!



in fact we have to really search to find a complete player, especially in asia and more pronounced, in Iran.
every player has some strong points and some weak ones as well.
that's why Bagheri's overall high and acceptable scores in many aspects of a player marks him distinct from other Iranian players. coz that makes him rare.


==============

as for the age-old claims that daei's presence didnt allow other forwards to flourish, I'd have to say I didnt expct it from you, ali jan.

this argument doesnt hold much water simply becoz it is NOT the PLAYER who chooses to be called up. you, as a coach, shd know better.
if a coach decides to pick a player then it is the player's duty to accept.
I agree, it is unfortunate to see many talents laid wasted becoz of moronic wrong policies adopted by the coach ( like using daei in meaningless friendlies and weak opponent official games like laos or ... ) when he could have and SHOULD have used the likes of borhani, khatibi, enayati, ...... that blame shd entirely lie on the shoulders of the coach. not the player.

come on, man. I know you cant mean that.

People called him the best player in Iran and blah blah, which isn't true. No one says there is a complete player. But Ali Daie as a forward has serious shortcoming for a forward. His finishing was poor IMO. Someone like Gholamhosseiin Mazloomi and even Khalili have much better sense for finishing than him. Rowshan was the best example of a great ball handler and a great finisher. Being a finisher has a mental spiritubal capacity to remain calm. As an example, Ali Daie missed key penalties against SS and his shennanigen against Shays is an example of his temper (which isn't a great example of calmness). Compare Toni in Bayern Munich today, that is a finisher. Even Ali Samerh and Reza Enayati are much better finisher than Ali Daie ( I saw since 1988).

For your second point, Ali Daie can't invite himself to the TM, but Ali Daie knew how to game the system and influence the system. Even today he does. Look at his interview in Navad and see the amount of blind self egotistical pride he expresses, when he says he wants nothing to do in TM but the head coaching job. To you it may come as a desire, to me it is a flase self centerisem. Ali Daie used his influence in TM and manipulated an incompetent, theocratic federation in order to get to the meaningless record of 108 goal scorer or whatever it was in the world. While Branko, Dadkan role were very important in him playin full 90 minutes in the TM, him using different techniques for influencing the system is undeniable.

Even if Branko invited him, he himself isn't blind or stupid, he could see he isn't a 90 minute player. There are many many players that they themselvs announced retirements for the TM (Bargheri, Roberto Carlos,....). Why Ali Daie didn't not do that. Daie playing 90 minutes even in shitty games like Laos or Guam or the team we scored 17 against (in order to get the meaningless record of the most goal scorrer in the world) destroyed the next generation of Iranian forwards, that is a fact, not an opinion.


I have promised myself to support TM and Mr. Daie as its head coach, so I don't want to continue this debate (it undermines the headcoach of our TM at present). So I suggest we don't continue this anymore. Suffice to say, I see things differently from you, but let's hold on to this for the next 6 months, let the TM, make the first round of the qualifications, if you want we can debate this again after that.

Merci for your time Payman Jaan. I always enjoy reading your posts and have a dialogue with you, but right now there are important issues in front of the TM, comapred to Ali Daie's past role in the TM, or his player's abilities.

[Doctor DOOM]

I truly believe the "best player" is bestowed on him not only based on his capabilities ( which arent that little anyway ), but also there's the added value of international fame, his exploits in his area of specialty, his endurance and .... generally what he brought for himself and IRAN's football.

the summation of all that makes him one of the best players in our history.

the term "complete" has obviously different meanings.

[Doctor DOOM]

Ali jan, I'm ready to give you this much: I agree daei shd have recognized and noticed his decline in abilities earlier and had perhaps suggested some rest here and there ( forcing branko to use others. this would have taken a lot of strain and fan pressure off daei's back as well. very important in hindsight ).

he shd have also retired a year earlier.

but I also KNOW the man he is, given his never-ending hunger and motivation, his tremendous ambitious nature would NOT have given up so easily with 10-11 months left to the WC and a chance to play at his final WC ... and perhaps score a goal , which would be the icing on the cake.

I'm sure you know, such ambitious egos rarely are led by absolute logic.

again, I must say it is not so much HIS fault as much as the coach.
afterall, daei can and may want to play till he's 70. it is the COACH who has to open his goddamn eyes and recognize while the hunger is there, the ability isnt all that much. as they say, the spirit is willing but the body isnt.

even if branko was under such delusions, he could have easily used him sparingly. or subbed him in/out here and there. but he didnt.

so the majority of fault still lies with the coach.


===============


and as for dialogue and debate, I enjoy all of yours and everyone else's views. be it similar or contrary to mine.
.
.
.
.
. well, not so much those who blindly follow that gutless moron, branko, though

but seriously, that's why I visit pfdc or any football site.


and now for this misunderstood, yet commonly used falsity that ppl choose to stay quiet becoz of TM or becoz TM has a game or .... !
that goes for the general forum, to especially keep some unruly kids in their place.

but seriously, ppl. COME OOOONNN !
how many of you think if I come and say "die TM, die" TM's fortune's going to be anything different ?
really.


at least I dont think by discussing pros and cons of an issue something good or bad is going to befall a team, a player, a nation or ... !!!
yes, even if some players, staff or hell, even if DAEI himself comes to the site and reads this.

hell, with all the discussion, who knows. maybe some ppl actually open up aspects and shed light on areas and topics less observed or noticed by ppl.
( just as I hoped a certain poll on TM's weak areas in the run up to WC would perhaps convince human jan to convey to branko that almost ENTIRE communities of fans have recognized/noticed the problematic areas of the team are LB and left wing, followed by GK. and they cant go on sweeping it under the rug. plus other matters such as no alternatives for main players ... blah, blah blah . and somehow hoped it would nudge them to act. )

so all of you, plz stop this "oh, I'm not going to say anything becoz TM or ss or pp or ... is having a game next tuesday" !!!

[Ali Chicago]

Payman Jaan;

I am not saying one shouldn't discuss, but at each moment there are priorities and less important stuff. At this moment to me, supporting Daie despite the past is the priority. To some degree to us (human) in social affair there is no reality. There is perception. Remmber the perception that was created around GN. Alos remember the perception that made Daie the so called best player in Iran.

I unlink Ala or many people who made that smeer campaign during the GN era or for taht matter most Iranian coachs, wil keep quiet (despite my reservations).

Suffice to say, Daie was never the best football player of Iran. Globalization didn't exist in football during the 70 or even 80s at least it wasn't as prelevant as it became in 90s. Daie became famous and as the harbinger of Iranina football due to the phonomenon of football globalization. Otherwise we had many other players who deserved much more than him.

On that note, let's agree to disagree on this and move on.

[Doctor DOOM]

anyway, the thread was about bagheri, not daei.

and btw, anyone else shares this view that Aghaei seems to be a slightly poorer clone of Bagheri ?
obviously he has a long way to be compared to karim. but so far he has shown aspects of his game that resemble the areas bagheri was famous for.

he is energetic, plays in the center midfield, whacks the ball real hard, comes forward to score goals, ..... ( is playing for pp ), (is he a turk?) ... has two hands, two eyes and a nose ( ok , I'm running out of points here ) much like karim.