Are we fooling ourseleves ?!

[zzgloo]

It is my personal opinion...that we,indeed,are fooling ourseleves !

.................................................. ..........................................

We who Won three asian championships in football,in short span......, and now are struggling with likes of Kuwait,and Qatar,etc.
We who,were more advanced and modernized country,compaire to Turkey,and now look up to them as Europeans.
We who, had tehran to be proud of among Asian cities,let alone arabs, now struggle to go to Dubai, to see high class technologies.
We who,did not need a VISA ,or some times passport to travel to many countries, and were repected in All western countries,...get lined up and searched to our under wear any where we go.
We who were so much proud of our litreture and class,are following the Khomani's " Tozihol-masaleh ".
We who, have silenced ourseleves, where thousands of our rights have been taken away, while in most other countries, one of them would have suffiesed to start a revelution.
.................................................. ...........................................
We can not simply say, things are normal !,
We can not say, we are not under-achiveing.
.................................................. .............................................

what should we do, when The lowest class of our society in running, and plundering our, name, our history, our dignity ?
what should we do, when these Mullahs keep our people on thier toes to shot them up ?
What should we do, when our normal path to the history, was high-jacked to the 7 th century arabian desert mentality ?
What should we do , when we are thrown at a left over meat , to be silenced ?
.............

Why,is it, islamic republic feels so free to do absolutly what ever it wishes ?
What should we answer a western friend, who asks us : " Why do n't Iranians do something about all these ? "
Why is it that Islamic republic has lasted so long ?

.............

BECAUSE : We ,the people, are fooling ourseleves !

[Ali Chicago]

It is my personal opinion...that we,indeed,are fooling ourseleves !
.................................................. ..........................................
We who were so much proud of our litreture and class,are following the Khomani's " Tozihol-masaleh ".
We who, have silenced ourseleves, where thousands of our rights have been taken away, while in most other countries, one of them would have suffiesed to start a revelution.
.................................................. ...........................................
BECAUSE : We ,the people, are fooling ourseleves !

While I agree with the curx of your post, Bahram Jaan, don't forget Iranians didn't sit silence. A bloody dictator and system made them silent. Next time you go to Iran, if you feel like being a bit advanterous go to Khavaran and see how many of Iranians are buried there that were exectuted in 1987 while were inside the IRI's prision and already sentensed to imprisonment by IRI court system (not death).

While thigns are bleak now, look at Iranian women taht despite all the pressure by IRI are not backing down. Granted a percentage have become call girls and all that (even in Dubai) but today we have more girl student in the university in Iran. This is in the country that at the begining of their so called Islamic revoloution banned girls from Engineering and many higher education instituttes. Resisting isn't always taking up arms.

Even today in our football, there are tens and hudreds of guy who are workign with youth and developing them, Reza Ahadi, Majid Sabzi (former PP youth coach), Namjoo Motagh, Nalcheghar even Majid Jalali. There are tens and hundereds of good people are workign with our youth. Where do you think Amrai, Mohsen Mosalma, Omid Ravankhah Akbarpoor, Ooldai and many others come from?

It is just in a dictatorship, good people can't be promoted. Once again, I totally agree with the crux of your post which is "we overestimate our abilities as Iranians". My only issue was with your part of the post that you said "We sat while......." Wanted to say as a nation we didn't . Many many Iranian youth paid with their lives around 1360-1363 and throught IRI life gave their life or years behind bars or had to leave the country. IRI bloody hands made Iranians silent with jail, torture, execution. It is nto like we just gave up without a fight. The dictatorship of IRI is probably the worst anywhere in teh world. They use the religion very effectively to do as they wish. So rest of the world didn't have to face murderers like we did.

[zzgloo]

Ali jaan..........
I know of likes of " Saeedi Sirjani ", and many others like him....which are testemony to what you say..............
I also, know, thousands have been jailed and excuted.......
I am proud of those people, and never want to discredit them......
But, ...........I must ask you.......have you heard anything lately ?
lately, it seems, like all spirits are dead ., lately it seems, like IR has developed a new nation . when you seat in a taxi cab, the driver will tell you, what he thinks you want to hear, according to your clothing and appearance....., then he say totaly a different thing to the next passenger, if they look differently.........and at the end, he himself has no opnion, other than the status code.......
it seems everybody have accepted the regim, and come to the conclusion, that ,it is what it is.
When during the Khatami, university students came out, people did not joined them, and the students are now under immpresion, they are on thier own., as all eyes are toward them for a change and no opposition group ...
Ordinary Iranians ,this new nation, now believes, " NAAN RA BE NERKHE ROOZ KHORDAN " is the today's slogan.
..
granted, islamic regim is extremly conning, but, the things they have done, for so long, has never been seen before......, Mr mogabeh of zimbabve may have done the same...but, Iran, with its high lituresy rate, and 70 million is different.................
The islamic republic, does things so bluntly, and without any reservations, as if they have absolutly no fear from the people.....
It appears, they only fear USA...and nothing els......
This, is far too embarrising, for our nation, after so long, without any disagreement,or a legitimate opposition.
..............
There must be something behind,the fact that after so long, we can not unit !
There must be something behind,haveing no poletical alternative, after so long, with even so much foerign support, and millions liveing out side.
...............
The country is big, and ofcourse has many like, " saeedi Sirjani ".....but, the culture as a whole, is a disappointing one ! ( Me included ! )

[maij]

Thank you Framarz , Peyman , Ali and Bahram for your posts, I can only say that such dialog is enriching my own experience and football education.

In essence we are perhaps saying the same thing with different flavors. If I go to the basic question of fooling ourselves, I still maintain that it is up to the individual to decide that and I am certainly not fooling myself and have providing my reasoning for that. I understand what Peyman says about why are we now questioning, while the team has not been successful per se’ for years. The problem is , human nature. At low times we tend to question everything because we are not satisfied and we demand changes to the better.

Football development is dependent on factors off the field as much as on it. It is a tight circle of elements that need to be cohesive, organized and solid before a team or a nation can gain and sustain that success. Not all countries have the right ingredient and Iran is certainly one of them. The odd victories here and there are certainly exciting, but expecting the team to beat the likes of Portugal and Mexico and performing well at the Asian level and winning accolades is simply a farfetched, although possible, ambition.
It is not a question of whether I am right or you are wrong or vice versa, it is about how one feels about the situation from his own perspective , which brings me to the role of the fans.


One can always use bad or negative experiences of the others to justify his own ludicrous act. A football fan is killed in Italy, so what is that compared to a soldier only losing his eye sight in Esfahan?

I don’t really subscribe to this point of view and if I have any aspiration as a fan, I need to follow the good examples not the bad ones, be it in South Africa or Sweden. I don’t think Iranian fans are as bad or as good as any fans across the globe , what makes me satisfied is to see is the majority or large segments of the fans act civilized , be appreciative , be knowledgeable and understand the games in such a way that they become another pillar for progress of football in Iran. Monday quarterbacking, for all what it’s worth, ain’t exactly the way that sport is developed.

I do sometimes listen to this American program called “Sport Overnight America” or something like that and hear phone-ins from fans, some of whom talk with such over confidence and self-belief, you wonder why they waste their life working at 711 or McDonalds instead of being in the Yankee stadium on the bench !!! Yeah, fans are all the same I guess. Over-estimating their little knowledge.

In my opinion, as a fan I have to understand my own limitation, even if I have immense knowledge about the game and continuously update myself. We need to have some respect for the professionals and give them credit. Even if I think that this player is better than the other for such game, even if I think that playing this plan will yield result rather than the one the coach is implementing. I am only a fan that has no pressure, physical or mental , I have no liability , no responsibility or accountability .

Demand a better standard , Yes . Protest against poor results , Yes , but all in a reasonable and sensible manner.

The other point that I wanted to discuss more elaborately is the development of football in the tiny Persian Gulf States. Briefly, if I take Qatar as an example, the foundations, infrastructure and the government support is second to none in the region and certainly there is no comparison to Iran. In the Asian Games, the stadiums and the facilities that I have seen made me dumbfounded although I was always aware of the good facilities there. Planning, using the best resources available and proper management, will some day yield result, so why is it a surprise for many to see that Qatar is challenging Iran? You get what you pay for, and if a country manages its football well , it will reap the fruits and that is what is happening now and deservedly so. It should be a lesson to others.

[Hajagha]

Ali jaan..........
I know of likes of " Saeedi Sirjani ", and many others like him....which are testemony to what you say..............
I also, know, thousands have been jailed and excuted.......
I am proud of those people, and never want to discredit them......
But, ...........I must ask you.......have you heard anything lately ?
lately, it seems, like all spirits are dead ., lately it seems, like IR has developed a new nation . when you seat in a taxi cab, the driver will tell you, what he thinks you want to hear, according to your clothing and appearance....., then he say totaly a different thing to the next passenger, if they look differently.........and at the end, he himself has no opnion, other than the status code.......
it seems everybody have accepted the regim, and come to the conclusion, that ,it is what it is.
When during the Khatami, university students came out, people did not joined them, and the students are now under immpresion, they are on thier own., as all eyes are toward them for a change and no opposition group ...
Ordinary Iranians ,this new nation, now believes, " NAAN RA BE NERKHE ROOZ KHORDAN " is the today's slogan.
..
granted, islamic regim is extremly conning, but, the things they have done, for so long, has never been seen before......, Mr mogabeh of zimbabve may have done the same...but, Iran, with its high lituresy rate, and 70 million is different.................
The islamic republic, does things so bluntly, and without any reservations, as if they have absolutly no fear from the people.....
It appears, they only fear USA...and nothing els......
This, is far too embarrising, for our nation, after so long, without any disagreement,or a legitimate opposition.
..............
There must be something behind,the fact that after so long, we can not unit !
There must be something behind,haveing no poletical alternative, after so long, with even so much foerign support, and millions liveing out side.
...............
The country is big, and ofcourse has many like, " saeedi Sirjani ".....but, the culture as a whole, is a disappointing one ! ( Me included ! )

With all due respect I think this kind of thoughts belongs to the last century. No one fights for freedom of speech when they can talk to the world in a blink and viewed by millions on the net any more. The central government influence on individual lives becomes shorter and shorter by every single year. Welcome to globalism which make individualism even bolder. This is a lost game for local government and they must accept the fact. No one knows what will be the world map in next 50 years. Iranians (of course the influential ones i.e. educated middle-class) are very aware of that. They don’t need to risk their lives for a game with known result.

Cheers,

[Hajagha]

In essence we are perhaps saying the same thing with different flavors. If I go to the basic question of fooling ourselves, I still maintain that it is up to the individual to decide that and I am certainly not fooling myself and have providing my reasoning for that.

Agreed.

[Ali Chicago]

Interesting how threads in football plus tend to end up in the social event in Iran. Bahram Jaan, reform in Iran was defeated for the most part. People that were hoping refrom change their lives and dont' go through another bloody revolution one more time got disappointed. I dont' want to get into why reform was defeated and internal, external elements of it.

However, one thing I can promise you, there will be movement again. This is what one of my best friends told me during the rough years of 1363 (around 1983), when I was trying to find a way to run away from Iran.

I didn't beleive him and l left. He stayed back, eventually got arrested and became a "Mosalman" in Evin prison under god only knows what kind of pressure. But he was right in one point, Since 1983, people have resisited in different way, from blind riot of football fans to sit in by parliment members in the Parliment to Berlin Conference, etc. etc.

I can relate to your frustration, but even today a lot is going on inside Iran. It is hard to get news outside of dictatorship in Iran. Plus American news are mostly obssesed with Iraq and US election. If you dig deep, still there are events in Iran, specially in the Universities. Even the split among the so called Principlaists (oosolgharayan) in the last Parlimantary election brigns further problems to this government.

Don't also forget the tough economic conidtion in Iran, when one has to work two jobs to pay the rent, it is hard to think about freedom and democracy.

Whenever, you get really down, all u need to do is to look at this PFDC and se people like Majid, Haji, Payman, yourself, Armin, Purple haze, Behzad, Mansoor , (who despite all of our problems and disagreement I respect very much), or the younger generation like Amin, Yashar, Kasra, the fella from Australia etc. These are all Iranians and until we have good people like them, there is hope. We just can't loose hope. It isn't an option. One doesn't need to be a political activist in order to change the world. There are some who maybe are better than us and get involved into the politics for the good of people not their own benefits. However, by being a good human being in our home, work place, school, work, we are doing good work, despite all the crap that is going around (in Iran or US or anywhere for that matter).

[zzgloo]

With all due respect I think this kind of thoughts belongs to the last century. No one fights for freedom of speech when they can talk to the world in a blink and viewed by millions on the net any more. The central government influence on individual lives becomes shorter and shorter by every single year. Welcome to globalism which make individualism even bolder. This is a lost game for local government and they must accept the fact. No one knows what will be the world map in next 50 years. Iranians (of course the influential ones i.e. educated middle-class) are very aware of that. They don’t need to risk their lives for a game with known result.
Cheers,

Belongs to the last century ??!!...Some say, 100 years,is exactly the number of years Islamic republic has taken us back to.
You may be are giveing globalism too much credit, or counting on it too early !

[zzgloo]

Interesting how threads in football plus tend to end up in the social event in Iran. Bahram Jaan, reform in Iran was defeated for the most part. People that were hoping refrom change their lives and dont' go through another bloody revolution one more time got disappointed. I dont' want to get into why reform was defeated and internal, external elements of it.
However, one thing I can promise you, there will be movement again. This is what one of my best friends told me during the rough years of 1363 (around 1983), when I was trying to find a way to run away from Iran.
I didn't beleive him and l left. He stayed back, eventually got arrested and became a "Mosalman" in Evin prison under god only knows what kind of pressure. But he was right in one point, Since 1983, people have resisited in different way, from blind riot of football fans to sit in by parliment members in the Parliment to Berlin Conference, etc. etc.
I can relate to your frustration, but even today a lot is going on inside Iran. It is hard to get news outside of dictatorship in Iran. Plus American news are mostly obssesed with Iraq and US election. If you dig deep, still there are events in Iran, specially in the Universities. Even the split among the so called Principlaists (oosolgharayan) in the last Parlimantary election brigns further problems to this government.
Don't also forget the tough economic conidtion in Iran, when one has to work two jobs to pay the rent, it is hard to think about freedom and democracy.
Whenever, you get really down, all u need to do is to look at this PFDC and se people like Majid, Haji, Payman, yourself, Armin, Purple haze, Behzad, Mansoor , (who despite all of our problems and disagreement I respect very much), or the younger generation like Amin, Yashar, Kasra, the fella from Australia etc. These are all Iranians and until we have good people like them, there is hope. We just can't loose hope. It isn't an option. One doesn't need to be a political activist in order to change the world. There are some who maybe are better than us and get involved into the politics for the good of people not their own benefits. However, by being a good human being in our home, work place, school, work, we are doing good work, despite all the crap that is going around (in Iran or US or anywhere for that matter).

Ali jaan, I love and respect your " heart "
But I doubt if is with the reality ,with what exactly going on in Iran.

[Paradigm]

Now thinking about it I guess Qotbi may have been a better choice: at least he has had experience working under Guus Hiddink. It's interesting to know which players he (Qotbi) would have invited and how he would organize TM given the large pool of players that will be at his disposal.

A wiser member than me, ' hajagha ', with his recent posts, made me think, if we are all fooling ourseleves, with what kind of football we realy have:
1-We all know by now, we never deserved to have the fifa rank of 15 th in the world, as it was a major goof by fifa.
2-Currant, secound or third in Asia , also seems over rateing.
3-Our legioners never were as good as we thought.
4-our legioners ,had been mostly bench wormers,or short time guests,or never, any player thier teams could not do without.
5-It also seems,based on extended " AGHA ZADEHA ",who had made high commisions out of industrial deals with Europe, ..if nothingels, we have more than desereved,football agents.
6-Our IFF is and has been a mess !, and always will damage our out put.
7-Our country is even in deeper mess, and we are dummed to suffer from it.even in football.
8-Our legioners, not so big a deal anyway, are old, and we have not had fresh blood.
9-our league is so elementary, even, Ghotbi, daei, and azizi, just for knowing a little about outside football, are among thier bests, just on thier first years.
10-All, arab countries seem like improveing daily,and with the addition of australia,and uzbacks the road has gotten tougher.
11-Our currant situation, with two ties is awakening !
12-Ali daei, does not seem to have a clue,how to take iran to the WC.
.............................................
Are, we just, fooling ourseleves ?...........should n't we start thinking of the Brazilian WC in 2014?

[RaginG Inferno]

A wiser member than me, ' hajagha ', with his recent posts, made me think, if we are all fooling ourseleves, with what kind of football we realy have:
1-We all know by now, we never deserved to have the fifa rank of 15 th in the world, as it was a major goof by fifa.
2-Currant, secound or third in Asia , also seems over rateing.
3-Our legioners never were as good as we thought.
4-our legioners ,had been mostly bench wormers,or short time guests,or never, any player thier teams could not do without.
5-It also seems,based on extended " AGHA ZADEHA ",who had made high commisions out of industrial deals with Europe, ..if nothingels, we have more than desereved,football agents.
6-Our IFF is and has been a mess !, and always will damage our out put.
7-Our country is even in deeper mess, and we are dummed to suffer from it.even in football.
8-Our legioners, not so big a deal anyway, are old, and we have not had fresh blood.
9-our league is so elementary, even, Ghotbi, daei, and azizi, just for knowing a little about outside football, are among thier bests, just on thier first years.
10-All, arab countries seem like improveing daily,and with the addition of australia,and uzbacks the road has gotten tougher.
11-Our currant situation, with two ties is awakening !
12-Ali daei, does not seem to have a clue,how to take iran to the WC.
.............................................
Are, we just, fooling ourseleves ?...........should n't we start thinking of the Brazilian WC in 2014?

I disagree one some points.

Our legionnaires were good players. The emphasis in my sentence is on the past tense. Around 2006, Mehdi Mahdavikia was coming off a great season with Hamburg(nominated by kicker as best wing back along with Lahm). Karimi had played a great first season with Hamburg, and Hashemian hadn't detiriorated greatly. Rezaei was still a starting player in Italy, although he was slowly losing form. Nekounam was obviously in fine form...

Now, the situation of these players is clear. Mehdi, Hashemian and Rezaei are evidently not the players they once were. Nekounam still has not returned from a devastating injury...and Karimi's situation is clear.

In 2004 to 2006 I sincerely believe we were the strongest team in Asia. Let's not let our current form mislead us.

Now, we are in an unenviable position. We have not had a head coach for more than half a year, until Daei's appointment. The team is in disarray, and the youth have not shown themselves to be capable of replacing the older, aging generation. We are in a period of transition.

[maij]

Now, we are in an unenviable position. We have not had a head coach for more than half a year, until Daei's appointment. The team is in disarray, and the youth have not shown themselves to be capable of replacing the older, aging generation. We are in a period of transition.

If you mean the time that the team was coached under Daei , then I fail to see how one can positievly comment on the team that played a grand total of two matches!!

In my opinion , Daei is doing a fine job introducing younger players. Frankly , the so-called stars have failed to deliver and they are aging , I don't see the near future dependence on Hashemian-Mahdavikia-Rezaei as a clever option. I also doubt that Nekounam will be productive or back to his top comes June 2008 (the crucial period of qualification)

So, let Daei introduc these younger ones and let them take the heat and learn , else we will always come up with excuses for excluding them.

I only have fait in Karimi from the older generation....Somehow the man is in transformation and has rapidly improved his performance ....may be he has a message to deliver.

[Hajagha]

I only have fait in Karimi from the older generation....Somehow the man is in transformation and has rapidly improved his performance ....may be he has a message to deliver.

yap, I know the message "eat Chelo-kabab as much as you can".

[maij]

yap, I know the message "eat Chelo-kabab as much as you can".

Maybe it is deeper than that ...You can eat chelo kebab like the rest of the human beings and also play some wonderful football...

[Ali Chicago]

If you mean the time that the team was coached under Daei , then I fail to see how one can positievly comment on the team that played a grand total of two matches!!

In my opinion , Daei is doing a fine job introducing younger players. Frankly , the so-called stars have failed to deliver and they are aging , I don't see the near future dependence on Hashemian-Mahdavikia-Rezaei as a clever option. I also doubt that Nekounam will be productive or back to his top comes June 2008 (the crucial period of qualification)

So, let Daei introduc these younger ones and let them take the heat and learn , else we will always come up with excuses for excluding them.

I only have fait in Karimi from the older generation....Somehow the man is in transformation and has rapidly improved his performance ....may be he has a message to deliver.

I think Regina is saying the same thign as you say. Stars are pretty much over and we need to rely on the new players. And overall I think he is still very positive about the future, he never criticized Daie for that matter agha majid.