The difference between PP & sepahan's case

[Doctor DOOM]

I asked this question in general forum, but almost everyone sidesteps the issue and starts accusing either side of bias and ... .

so I ask it here, hoping for more mature discussion.

sepahan was reprimanded for their "fan violence" in isfahan and were reduced some points as a result.

what happened yesterday in pp-sepahan game amounts to the exact same thing with some fans incurring severe head injuries and other injuries that the media has reported as a result of .... lo & behold, "fan violence".

now, can someone explain what is the difference between the two cases? I may have forgotten something that does make the distinction here. so if anyone remembers, plz discuss.


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p.s.; I still maintain the TEAM pp deserved the win becoz they played a more aggressive & better football.
that is besides the issue though.

and plz refrain from coming up UNRELATED issues like pp managements' failure in their financial dealings and .... coz that has NOTHING to do with the point at hand.

[BehzadB]

what happened yesterday in pp-sepahan game amounts to the exact same thing

You see, you complain about others being biased, but that's a biased conclusion.

On WHAT ground are you saying that these are the same exact thing??

have you heard or read enough about yesterday event to make that comparison?

you said in the other thread that you still not sure why Sepahan was penalized for that situation in Isfehan, even though that case was covered to death by the Media, but How are you sure that these two cases are exactly the same when there has hardly been a report on what took place yesterday..

I think you guys are biased against PP and you just don't want to admit it..

[perspolees]

aghai in one point was pulled out of the peples mass almost dead!!
the difference in my opinion is simple.
in one you grab a weapon and go for the kill and attack others
in another it is peoles unintentioneal mass force that you at times get hurt.
persepolis fans showed the utmost class and followed bagheris request and stood all 100k up and applauded hte other teams fans and team...I think we do not know what eh detail is here but I doubt the injuries and hurts were due to intentional act

[BehzadB]

^^ they allowed like 150k people in or around the stadium .. I am surprised there weren't some people killed..

[Paradigm]

I agree with your points as usual Dr D but in any event I am happy to see PP win it again. They wil be a good represnetative for Iran in the CL next year. It is refreshing to see some team other than Sepahan for a change.

++++++++++++++++++
Nice virtual replays of the goals and highlights of Euro '04: http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualreplay/euro2004/index.shtml

[Doctor DOOM]

for those who dont see parallels, here is a report.
http://www.persianfootball.com/forum...1&postcount=29

btw, behzad jan, when someone says "I dont recall ... ", dont take words "literally" bro. you know the writer is trying to get ppl to retell and confirm the truth that he knows too.

the cases are similar becoz of :
1- fan violence
2- injuries incurred due to the voilence
3- lack of security

in fact, in PP's case, you could add the following nuances:
it was the VISITING fans who were injured by the HOST fans.
but that's besides the point.

anyway, I'd like to remind everyone of all those posts done by pp fans during sepahan's incident and what they said and demanded and most importantly, DEEMED FAIR.

what happened now?
now, suddenly the same matter becomes UNFAIR ?

[Doctor DOOM]

and here's Mr. Hooshang Naseerzadeh, a qualified refereeing committe member:

he, also, admits reduction of points is not the correct method for addressing the issue of fan voilence.
very true and many of us did say that in sepahan's incident as well ( although many - not all - red fans were gleeful about it and demanded it ).

so IFF shd either return those 3 points reduction for sepahan or reduce pp's by 3 to uphold ITS OWN RULING & LAW.

[BehzadB]

DD,

being "similar" wasn't what I objected to.. I object to the fact that you claimed that the two cases "..amount to the exact same thing"...

of course they are similar.... in both, fans were involved..

in this one some fans beat each other up.. in the other one, Sepahan fans lit up a few grenades and throw them at the other crowd...

they are different, regardless how one tries to draw similarities..

Saket, Sepahan, PP, fans, you , Us, the police, all and all should be happy that while we had 150k screaming, fanatic, crazy fans in one place we still managed to come out with 25 injuries with 1 serious situation.

the thing that happened in Esfehan happened while HALF of the stadium was completely empty.. some body f*cked up.. it was the Isfehani football guys and Sepahan management who were responsible ..

Saket is powerful enough to keep an UNFAIR ruling hurt his team.. believe it.
He whines because he has nothing else to say.. every coach and management guys in Iran whine when their own operation fails to produce result.. From parvin to Daie to hejazi , fatolah zadeh, saket, kashani .. all of them.. they all whine when they lose..

ghotbi is the only Iranian coach that hasn't whined , YET... once he is there long enough, he'll learn..

p.s: point taken on the "..don't recall" point..

[Doctor DOOM]

the "number" of fans shd not be any excuse for such cases.

notice we are NOT talking about cases like sudden massive rush to the exit after a fire break out or ... .
this has NOTHING to do with the number of fans and you know it very well ( but since it is PP, somehow many of you dont want to accept the truth! which is very unbecoming of you )

this was "clashes" between rival fans.
this is a different case.

in other similarities, if you've read the reports, much like the sepahan case, here, PP fans and azadi stadium management denied a lot of sepahan fans from entering the stadium as well.
in fact UNLIKE sepahan's case, here, sepahan fans werent allowed to even make the required 10% visiting fan limit !

and in fact, due to PP fans' pressure in isfahan, the area alotted to them was largely expanded and moved to a far better pocation ( almost middle of the ground ) while sepahan fans were still restricted to the TOP floor, in one CORNER ( not center ) of the stadium.


third similarity is the crux of the issue, which is the clubs, as long as they dont OWN these stadiums or security forces, cannot be held responsible for such incidents.
if we're talking about Saba or saipa or paas who OWN their stadiums, then it'll be a different matter.
but neither sepahan nor pp own naghshe-jahan or azadi ... or the security forces.
but IF IFF has such a skewed law to actually hold the hosts responsible for such incidents, then it is only fair to expect application of the law in all cases and not "selected" ones.


as I said in general forum.
it is not as if we say pp didnt deserve to win the game.
coz they played better and deserved it ( although not the "WAY" they did. perhaps with that kaabi penalty )
but it is very disturbing to see members here suddenly make a 180 and refuse to even own up to their own words during the sepahan game. now, that's double standards.
and more than that, it is disturbing & amusing to see how pp fans refuse to even acknowledge the double standards and be secure and fair enough to say "yes. it happened. and we cant do anything about it" !
that's all.

[zzgloo]

I think, the difference between the cases are Poletical !!
for ultra sencetive Islamic republic,that crushes slightest up rising by any one, be it students,women,teachers,etc.....the case in Sepahan was against Government soldier,and live amunations were used....had it not been punished, it would have given people wrong ideas ( from the regim's point of view ).

[Doctor DOOM]

bahram jan, the very same "live ammunition" has been used many many times before and mostly in azadi, in fact.
( we've discussed this issue during the isfahan incident and I dont want to go over every point again ).

You may be right in one thing that becoz a soldier got injured in isfahan, the govt felt they had to react and in haste, instead of catching the PRIMARY culprit, which is the fan(s) who threw the grenade or even the SECONDARY culprit, which is NAJA who didnt do their job of searching the fans for such elements, they pounced on the shahrestani club. ( even then, many did say had it happened in tehran with ss/pp hosting , the verdict would have been different ).

now, I'm sure you all agree that did set a precendence. They cited "fan violence leading to severe injury to member(s) of public". maybe at the time IFF didnt think about its repercussions, but today, we see that coming back and biting them in the arse. today also, we have the exact same "fan violence leading to severe injury to members of public.

sadly, until today noone has found the real guilty or even bothered about NAJA's hand in it. even then, many of us ( curiously very few pp fans though ... for understandable reasons ) did bring up NAJA's major role in that incident and how they shd have been found guilty ( if not more than the club, at least on par with it ) and somehow with mainstream media ( situated in tehran ) focusing on sepahan only and the prospect of them losing points ( and PP getting some relief as a result ), ignored the issue and almost neglected to discuss the failure of NAJA in maintaining the security as well as their duty in making sure such objects didnt get into the stadium !!!!
very much in the vein of how , today, the very same media is busy with championship articles left and right to satisfy the hunger of masses of fans for the popular pp, and is ignoring the very same issue they pounced on during isfahan incident !!!!!!

the media's modus operandi is very similar to the rubbish you see in smear campaigns as well.
remember days before pp-sepahan game suddenly some rags started the rumor that sepahan hadnt paid the soldier and were expected to lose more points. thus creating negative publicity for sepahan ahead of the game. all in order to serve the popular tehrani team's interests. much like the regular smear campaigns like the swift-boat group against J. Kerry since you are in the US and am sure do keep up with politics there.
the purpose of such smear campaigns is to create disturbances and negative mood. even if a few days later you are forced to print a correction, the IMPACT has been already achieved.
sepahan has repeatedly explained they have the actual receipt of the draft they made towards the soldier's account. you just cant cook up a reciept out of nowhere. but many fans ( some members here on pfdc even ) did talk about it and ... .
wonder why the very same papers dont run those articles on the issue of sepahan's failure to pay the soldier anymore !!!!!

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and btw, I dont think the rule said " ONLY if a soldier is injured, the club shd be held responsible".

[TM-Fan]

^thumbup:

I am just thinking that the next time Sepahan and PP play in Esfahan, the violent acts will probably continue in a stronger form. Esfahani fans will think that their team is a victim of injustice to play half of the season outside Esfahan in such a heavy scheduled season and get the point reduction, while PP gets away with no punishment for a similar fault.

The IFF made a mistake to punish Sepahan in that severe form instead of addressing the root cause, and planted the seed for future violences...

[Doctor DOOM]

^ I'm afraid your prophecy may turn out to be true !!!

sad. isnt it ?
how a bunch of incompetent partisan fools can ruin a progressing trend in football with foolish decisions and think they can get away with it with no repercussions !

[zzgloo]

yesteday,in an written interview with " yavary ", the bargh's coach,he was asked how the league could be improved next season...and he said, """some one needs to tel mr.aliabadi, that the league is not just PP,and SS !!!, and the others need budget and care as well !! """"
And this is the whole point, and I like to say to Mr.Yavari.. That whole point in haveing a league is to " Control people "....and once we understand that, there should not be any question or comment like that, nor should any one wonder why things happened in sepahan the way it happened.

[Doctor DOOM]

That whole point in haveing a league is to " Control people "....

bahram jan, I didnt get this part.
could you plz explain what control, how and which ppl ?