The BS called if you are not a pro!

[perspolees]

If you can argue that way with an attorney after a little research he is a joke of an attorney. But Branko has bosses. People who were in football for a long time. People who, after he had worked for a while in Iran already, three times gave him a new contract. It's not that there is noone competent to judge him. Regardless of Dadkan & Co's class, they are yet cleverer than Dr. Doom and if Branko was on the level of the described attorney, those people wouldn't pay him lots of money.
Why on earth is it justified for a fan to badmouth a coach, but not for a fan to critisize another fan, both for his knowledge as well as for his whole behaviour? This is what I am doing. And by the way using the same terminology he uses writing about the coach.

That is true, but people who exaggerate it are hypocrites. And you must differ between issues. We all can drive so we can easily and rightfully critisize other drivers, or we can judge from the output (accident=bad driving) without knowing much about driving. But if I never sat in a car I can't say Schumacher is a moron for this and that. The guy is knowing what he does very well, much better than me, so if he doesn't get the results I can say he must do sth wrong, but when I start annoying talk about how he should have changed the setup of his car it is ridiculous. Do you see the difference?
Of course, but you judge solely by the output in that example, which is rational. You say you tried to cure me and it still hurts, so you failed. You don't say used a wrong technique or stuff like that, but you need another expert to analyse the mistakes for you. Similarily in football. Stick to critisizm of the output and when it comes to problem solving, leave it to the experts or at least don't be a prick in presenting your amateurish ideas. The tone makes the difference. If you're a nobody, don't call Professor Ivankovic who has a very impressive track record as TM coach a moron.
You don't seem to understand. DD is not a coach, so when he disagrees with a coach (or rather with a whole coaching Staff) on coaching matters he is most likely wrong. Now the problem is not that we all sometimes disagree with a coach, but when somebody constantly acts as if the coach was a complete moron it's simply annoying to people.
But if a successful coach decides not to call him up, he surely has his reasons. I mean the assumption that he has suddenly gone nuts and doesn't see Karimi is good or doesn't want to have success is plainly ridiculous. Yet this ridiculous assumption in much less strange cases (Mobali really is not Karimi) is the basis of almost all of Dr. Doom's critisizm.
Again, I also argue the points, but each single point is not important. Important is an attitude that is starting to take over people. As soon as there is a difference in a pro coach's decision and a fan's thought the coach is attacked and labelled an idiot. Noone is eager to learn, to try to understand or at least not insult a person much more competent.
We MUST NOT let this attitude overcome rationality.
But it is his right to insult and put down a person valued by others as well as being more intelligent (in football aspects) then him?
Again, I think you missed my complete point. You seem to believe I am against people critisizing a coach. If that is the case, please, if you are interested , read what I write again.
It's an attitude that is inappropriate and lowers the quality of the discussions. It is how you say it, and the how is heavily influenced by the attitude. Critisize, but remember who you are and who the one is you critisize.

Martinjan:
I do not see anything int he above script related to what I am saying.
Simply put argue with DD or who ever that bad mouths a coach and slanders personal attacks, but if someone is attacking his capabilities and brings on his understanding of teh situation does not mean that the answer should be shut up you are not a coach!.

Plus by doing so you are saying that I will respond to a nonesense with another nonesense!


In the doctor example I gave you one of the many scenarios and yes you can say that he used the wrong technique!! it happens every day and for money or right or wrong they could get plenty of the same specialty doctors to say that too! as you could get plenty of coaches to question Branko and another group choose to stick with him and his plans. That's their right. yet again no one can say since you do not have the degree do not comment!

""Important is an attitude that is starting to take over people.""

I think the most important thing here or in any discussion is not the attitude! I think it is the what that is at helm! whether it holds water or not, whether its reasonable or not. I do not care if Hitler wanted to smoothly and with a positive attitude to go and kill millions versus his attitude of doing it the way that he did, bioth are as bad in my book!
So the what here is important and open to exchange of thoughts and reasoning, but it is hard for me to believe that a reasoning as to since you do not have the degree will hold water anywhere. IMHO it even is such a weak argument that tajes the valid points of your response out of the conclusion!

" As soon as there is a difference in a pro coach's decision and a fan's thought the coach is attacked and labelled an idiot. Noone is eager to learn, to try to understand or at least not insult a person much more competent.""

No argument here as it is my belief too. This is the way you should logic your way through and not by saying you do not have the degree so dont comment.


Trust me that there are points in coaching or fielding a team that you know more than Branko! or even the greatests of the greatest! as a whole package wea are nothing compared to any coach for that matter .... but one can not say that for instance there is nothing that you do not know more about brain than a brain surgeon as I am sure there could be plenty!

All I am trying to say again is that there is no doubt in my mind that some coaches or some fans or some writers know some points more than Branko and I have no doubt about it. No one could blanket claim that since that particular person does not the degree therefor he cant comment.

[Martin-Reza]

But all I say is if you are not a coach, have never selected and lined up a team you must not say stuff like "the coach is a moron for not selecting the players I as amateur would have selected".

Is that complain in any way opposing your view?

And please note that this does not mean forbidding to COMMENT anything one is not a pro in, but it means not to TALK DOWN to persons undoubtedly more competent than oneself.

[Doctor DOOM]

this shd open up a lot of eyes and shut a lot of mouths .

especially since it comes from the motuh of a reputable and highly decorated HEAD coach, not "just-an-assistant-to-a-great-coach" who piggy-bak rides on the feat accomplished by another great coach, Ciro.

enjoy or suffer .... whichever that fits the occasion :

http://www.footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=530

[Martin-Reza]

Don't spam the board by repeated posting. In opposite to you this guy has a reputation and knows what he's talking about so I accept his critisizm (although I don't share his view) - which is also in opposite to you who shows no respect for people more knowledgable than you with a different opinion!

Or should I make the same approach as you and act as if I was cleverer than a guy with much more experience and knowledge? I could name that he might have been a great coach 25 years ago but not now and that his most recent 'record' was being overruled and basically kicked out by the managers of the worst team of the Austrian league because he's not really up-to-date anymore and probably desperately needs a job...

But all of this doesn't make this guy's advantage in knowledge of the game compared to mine vanish, so I will not go down to Dr. Doom level and accuse this honorable person of being a moron for disagreeing with me.

[perspolees]

But all I say is if you are not a coach, have never selected and lined up a team you must not say stuff like "the coach is a moron for not selecting the players I as amateur would have selected".
Is that complain in any way opposing your view?
And please note that this does not mean forbidding to COMMENT anything one is not a pro in, but it means not to TALK DOWN to persons undoubtedly more competent than oneself.

Martinjan with all due respect if someone is talking down onto someone then you can point that out and I agree it is wrong. we all make that mistake but we should not talk down about any body or have any personal attacks but life is way short of a perfect surrealism!

In any case if that's what you are upset with then site it as the reason. It has nothing to do with a fan's degree or professional capability if he or she thinks that his or her reasoning for instance is to play hashemian instead of Daei becaues of......reasons then those reasons could be challenged according to your thoughts but again imho a blanket statement pointing out that he or she is wrong because of no degree in coaching does not hold water..

[Martin-Reza]

Martinjan with all due respect if someone is talking down onto someone then you can point that out and I agree it is wrong. we all make that mistake but we should not talk down about any body or have any personal attacks but life is way short of a perfect surrealism!
In any case if that's what you are upset with then site it as the reason. It has nothing to do with a fan's degree or professional capability if he or she thinks that his or her reasoning for instance is to play hashemian instead of Daei becaues of......reasons then those reasons could be challenged according to your thoughts but again imho a blanket statement pointing out that he or she is wrong because of no degree in coaching does not hold water..

It has got something to do with the critic's degree. If Udo Lattek or Giovanni Trappatoni talk down to a coach (even the quoted Mohajerani), even in an arrogant way, it is justified because they have the status to do so. Dr. Doom hasn't got that status and yet talks down to coaches.

Dr. Doom is not expressing himself in the way his status allows, and yet he is supported for that by some. That is the annoying thing, not that he has an own opinion.

[zzgloo]

We Iranians have a very complecated culture...I call it " Edeaa e ghaire mostaghim "......
We may be talking about an issue, but what we realy mean is an " Edeaa " about somethingelse.....
We may be critizing a system, yet what we mean is " we know better than others "...
We may be critisizing the way others talk,yet what we mean is " We are more mature and civilized than others "....
We may talk about an apple, but we realy have an orange in mind ..!!!
.......
But what ever it is , no one understands us better than overseleves...and hence, we should accept this as a given and not to critisize overseleves for being " IRANIAN "....
Therefore, I totaly disagree with people who insinuate civil behavior,while what they are doing is another way of doing the same.
So, lets cut the " BS ", ( as perspolees suggested ), and listen to ""WHAT"" every body say,and not "" HOW "" they say it...since,it is our way,it is Iranian way !!!

[perspolees]

It has got something to do with the critic's degree. If Udo Lattek or Giovanni Trappatoni talk down to a coach (even the quoted Mohajerani), even in an arrogant way, it is justified because they have the status to do so. Dr. Doom hasn't got that status and yet talks down to coaches.
Dr. Doom is not expressing himself in the way his status allows, and yet he is supported for that by some. That is the annoying thing, not that he has an own opinion.

I do not care who is who if any one is talking down he is an inferior person period!
for this kind of criticism you do not need to have a degree. In fact I have never seen respectable and knowledgable professinals put down the criticism based on the fact that the critcizer does not have the degree! quite on the contrary demeanor nd attitude of a knowledgable person just shows through his or her responses to his critiques....putting down a criticism based on lack of degree is flat out BS.

[Martin-Reza]

I do not care who is who if any one is talking down he is an inferior person period!
for this kind of criticism you do not need to have a degree. In fact I have never seen respectable and knowledgable professinals put down the criticism based on the fact that the critcizer does not have the degree! quite on the contrary demeanor nd attitude of a knowledgable person just shows through his or her responses to his critiques....putting down a criticism based on lack of degree is flat out BS.

It is not and it is really surprising you don't understand.

Not only that the content of Dr. Doom's critisizm is amusing in best and completely...ok let's skip this word...in worst case.

The problem is that he is not open to argumentation, as he already believes to be cleverer than most coaches, so why should he even listen to other fans?

This guy seriously believes he could make more accurate decisions than a pro coach - without even having information necessary to judge certain things. I already gave examples of such information.

And this whole inacceptable attitude is reflected in every post of this guy. That is the problem and if you don't mind status and believe every 6-year-old is in the position to analyze so called "obvious mistakes" by professionals it's pretty worrying.

And that others accept such an attitude by just saying "well that is Iranian" than better live with the fact that with "well that is Iranian"-attitude of many people Iran will never reach a higher level in football and many other things.

[Behrooz]

Labeling TM coach as "Whimp" or "Moran" is not fair and won't solve any problems. As fans, it is better to make suggestions and/or constructive critisizm and leave the rest to the coaching staff.

[Martin-Reza]

Labeling TM coach as "Whimp" or "Moran" is not fair and won't solve any problems. As fans, it is better to make suggestions and/or constructive critisizm and leave the rest to the coaching staff.

Mersi, as easy as that, don't know why people are arguing about this.

[perspolees]

It is not and it is really surprising you don't understand.
Not only that the content of Dr. Doom's critisizm is amusing in best and completely...ok let's skip this word...in worst case.
The problem is that he is not open to argumentation, as he already believes to be cleverer than most coaches, so why should he even listen to other fans?
This guy seriously believes he could make more accurate decisions than a pro coach - without even having information necessary to judge certain things. I already gave examples of such information.
And this whole inacceptable attitude is reflected in every post of this guy. That is the problem and if you don't mind status and believe every 6-year-old is in the position to analyze so called "obvious mistakes" by professionals it's pretty worrying.
And that others accept such an attitude by just saying "well that is Iranian" than better live with the fact that with "well that is Iranian"-attitude of many people Iran will never reach a higher level in football and many other things.

martinjan
seems to me that you have a problem with DD. Fine!
All I care to say is beat him in his arguments or give him your thoughts as he is pushing his.
imho the logic never lies in : If you do not have the degree then do not comment...that's all

[BehzadB]

Labeling TM coach as "Whimp" or "Moran" is not fair and won't solve any problems. As fans, it is better to make suggestions and/or constructive critisizm and leave the rest to the coaching staff.

I agree.

As fans, ALL we can do is state our opinion, no matter what, it is ALL upto the coaching staff (and the decision makers). Calling names is not going to help anything.

martinjan
seems to me that you have a problem with DD. Fine!
All I care to say is beat him in his arguments or give him your thoughts as he is pushing his.
imho the logic never lies in : If you do not have the degree then do not comment...that's all

I agree with that too.

[Montreal]

I scanned through some of the posts, didn't read them all, I'm glad this issue is being raised.

I'm sure u all know that the single most essential rule which governs every theory is that the possibility that it is falsified must always exist. There r theories of human behaviour, like the psychoanalytic stuff which will tell u that u do things without knowing the reason behind them because, say, u r unable to delve into ur subconcious every time u make a decision. If u can think of anything, any 'life example' u think could go against this theory ur bound to hit a brick wall, because the theory says that either way there's a hidden reason behind the reason and it's just that u haven't gone deep enough. The theory 'BS called if u r not a pro' tells u that even if u think u know what's best, that possibility doesn't exist because only the coach knows best, and therefore wtv u say can easily be dismissed as irrelevant. Hope this makes sense!

[BehzadB]

I scanned through some of the posts, didn't read them all, I'm glad this issue is being raised.
I'm sure u all know that the single most essential rule which governs every theory is that the possibility that it is falsified must always exist. There r theories of human behaviour, like the psychoanalytic stuff which will tell u that u do things without knowing the reason behind them because, say, u r unable to delve into ur subconcious every time u make a decision. If u can think of anything, any 'life example' u think could go against this theory ur bound to hit a brick wall, because the theory says that either way there's a hidden reason behind the reason and it's just that u haven't gone deep enough. The theory 'BS called if u r not a pro' tells u that even if u think u know what's best, that possibility doesn't exist because only the coach knows best, and therefore wtv u say can easily be dismissed as irrelevant. Hope this makes sense!

If that rule applies to every theory, and "deep enough" does not have a clear meaning and lets say I am the coach, then wouldn't the same rule still govern my theories?