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**Doctor DOOM** · 02-17-2006, 01:43 AM

persi jan, it's all in how one percieves himself and his own level of intelligence.

one may like to act like sheep and just follow.
eat what is told to him, and not question anything.
sure. there are lots of ppl like this.
coz in the end, when failure comes, they can claim no responsibility and say "I wasnt in charge. I didnt do anything !!"
it could be a matter of "lack of self esteem or self-importance" too.
generally an "inferiority complex".

or one may want answers. one trusts his own intelligence and as far as reality and basic issues are concerned, sees himself capable of forming an opinion.
as they say , a sure sign of intelligence is the ability to question .

basically, understanding football can be as difficult and unfathomable as figuring out nuclear physics, or as easy as .... oh, I dont know .... watching a game !!
coz , bloody hell, it IS a game, and a VERY EASY one at that , too.

but, as I said earlier; to each his own.

**Martin-Reza** · 02-17-2006, 05:18 AM

It's really annoying that people fail to understand and enjoy failing to understand the point.

If you are no pro coach, don't comment technical and tactical issues as if you were one.

In other words: You, perspolees, could not achieve sufficient success as a coach with your current level of knowledge, therefore don't tell a pro coach what to do technically.

That there is a difference between not having the knowledge to be on the level of a procoach and not being able to understand anything is out of doubt.

Don't make it all black and white. There is sth between understanding nothing and acting like Marcello Lippi. There is something between shutting up completely and commenting every decision amateurishly without sufficient information and knowledge.

**Doctor DOOM** · 02-17-2006, 09:13 AM

for answers, kindly refer to "life's a bit.ch for branko" thread.

**Amirza** · 02-17-2006, 02:16 PM

Good point DD -
especialy knowing that the best of Iranian minds do not choose Football as careers.

**Doctor DOOM** · 02-17-2006, 06:56 PM

why, thank you, amireza jan.

my good friend, that is the nicest and grandest compliment anyone can give to another.

I'm quite humbled.

feeling's mutual, I assure you , bro

**TM-Fan** · 02-18-2006, 07:38 AM

I think this poem says it all:

An kas ke bedanad va bedanad ke bedanad,
Asl-e sharaf az gonbad-e gardun bejahanad
An kas ke bedanad va nadanad ke bedanad,
bidarsh namaid ke bas khofte namanad
An kas ke nadanad va bedanad ke nadanad,
Langan kharak-e khish be manzel beresanad
An kas ke nadanad va nadanad ke nadanad,
Dar jahl-e morakab abad ol dahr bemanad.

**zzgloo** · 02-18-2006, 02:21 PM

Very interesting thread,although could have been presented alot earlier...
perspolees jan, Thanks for your stateing the obviouse, although, this is not so obviouse to many......and I like to invite these people to see the our side of the issue, with my well intention of us being united,as this I hope was thier intention as well.
What is the thought behind our site ? The persianfootball.com ?
Is it to exchange opinions ? or is it to use the internet as a TV monitor,and have no voice ?....
Not stateing opinions, or not haveing opinion IS NOT WISE,as you may think it is .By shareing opinions and reading opposite views, an intelegent mind will get closer to what is right.This is an essence of humanity....it is an essence of democratic socieities....
Yes,I agree,that a kitchen can not have two cooks, but the kitchen is TM , not PFDC !!!!!

**perspolees** · 02-19-2006, 02:00 AM

"It's really annoying that people fail to understand and enjoy failing to understand the point."
very well said!
just try to get te point people before you and I were born and many years after you and I are gone will comment on technical stuff that they do not have a deep understanding of...try to use some of your own medicine!

"In other words: You, perspolees, could not achieve sufficient success as a coach with your current level of knowledge, therefore don't tell a pro coach what to do technically."

I think this is the flaw in your thought process!
You are absolutely correct that I can't succeed a s a coach but that does not mean that I can't comment ( indirectly tell, or suggest ) a coach what I think! or criticize his absence of guts! the first part has nothing to do with the latter part.

Or if I can time a player that has run in te 21st century only 15 minutes of a game then I could easily say **** whatever plan that the coach has with this old geezer this is world cup dude! we need fresh legs...etc.. I may be wrong in my assumption and could be right as well, but just because I am not a coach I should shut up!!? or not be able to tell him maybe he sees it too!?

You do not have enough knowledge of law and you can't defend anyone in the court of law but you have the ability to see if an attorney is weak and not up to par and not capable of a good defense! or millions of other examples...first part does not conclude the latter part, simple as that..

read what I have posted.
Every day people do things and invent stuff for you and me to live better lives in areas that they have no clue in . Ebay a multibillion dollar was not invented by a internet guru bla bla, it was a simple idea...
plenty of such examples exists...

writers, commentators, spectators and just simple fans are the most valuable part of any sports and they bash what they do not like and support the ones tha they do.. and trust me that they are the main reason that a player gets recognition for the professors of football to use them! and how funny that the majority does see it te same way. The majority do see ouur problems with our tm...like it or not but those are facts...

platinis, zidans, baecjkenbauers, peles etc..first had to have it in the eyes of teh simple fans and then the professors of football would use them...well there was not much of a trategy needed to use them.. it was like the chicago bulls coach phil jackson that his genious was:
just give the ball to jordan!!

again I do not want to derail te topic here but players need to show what they have for simple fans before they ever get called up...

and last but not least:
Have you ever commented on a journalist, better than the other, or doctor being bettter than another one? how do you compare things that you have not gone to school for!!?

who says that I cant compare say kameli to kazerani!!?
or enayati to daei!? just because I am not a coach?
just know that if anyone truly believes int hat he or she is a ludicris at best with literally no way to make any decision or comment about anything!

**perspolees** · 02-19-2006, 02:22 AM

o I forgot there was this simple study mny years ago that egular fans and the coach were off only on 5-6 players on their call up!! how would you answer that?
Or just the fact that at least 10 -15 of our tm players would get the majority vote to get called up! So how is it that the regular fans are good in guessing those and how and where they would play but therest of teh stuff that they say is no good!?

I want to see the professor use his knowledge and make a great keeper out of Daei! Is there a secret that he knows and I dont in how top achieve this? So on this topic of daei becoming a keeper Branko thinks exactly like a simple fan that I am who would miserably as you said fail a team

so there! just like how Branko and I can have common points we may just disagree too...and you never know in some areas of the game I may actually be better than him! as I could easily claim that I am better than daei in playing with the ball and dribbling! but he is a great o well he was a great footballer and I am a great football fan

**Doctor DOOM** · 02-19-2006, 07:21 AM

good post , persi jan.

but I have a problem with your statement:

"....I want to see the professor use his knowledge and make a great keeper out of Daei......"

agha jan, laazem nakardeh.
first lets see if he can make a proper KEEPER when to exit for crosses ! daei keeper shodan bokhoreh too saremoon !

4 years have passed, and despite having not one, but TWO GK-ing coaches, mirza makes the same mistakes !!!!!

how pathetic is that as a tenure-record for a coach ?

and how pathetic the head coach shd be to still defend these two and persist with them ?

now to some friends this may seem like an incredible discovery fitting only for greatest football minds with 4 diff. degrees, and not simple fans !
to some others ( and thank god they are the absolute majority ) this is clear as day and no nuclear physics, to notice and comment on.

**Mansoor** · 02-19-2006, 10:00 AM

Here is my perspective on this topic:

1. From what I have read and understood, Martin did not say not to talk, not to criticize, not to discuss issues, but rather select words more carefully. If this is correct, then I agree with him.

Arrogant and aggressive statements as if you know more than a professional only proves lack of education and understanding of the topic. Extremism has always been due to illiteracy and lack of education in any situation. Although, sometimes the culture also plays a role in it.

I suggest rather than decorating your statements and criticism with arrogance and strong foul language, try to discuss it with only emphasizing on the point you have or the criticism you see. Remarks of harsh harsh words only present your own self as not a creditable person, person of extremism which simply implies lack of understanding, education, and culture.

I am surprise Perspolis jaan(I wish I could have a first name), has constantly advocating that you should maintain respect for Ali Parvin who was Iran's national team captain for so long, when criticizing him, but rather forgets that when it comes to other members of TM, coach or player.

2. I do think that fans and amateurs can sometimes bring in different perspectives that professionals MAY simply miss due to being too tied up in principles of certain subject. Revolutionary ideas have often been triggered by those with no expertise on the subject. Football is no exception. I think the fans should continue to pour in ideas, suggestions, and criticism, but to be more careful and respectful when the criticism is presented. Not to go "ghorboon sadagheh" but to also avoid harsh foul language that only reduces their own value of existance.

3. I think all of us fans should have one simple statement in mind at all time to help us avoid extremism which again only expose our lack of education: The constant question of "is it HIM or ..... is it ME?" This simple question will always help you keep things in perspective regardless of how sure you are of what you think is true is actually true.

Take a look at history. Your own history, History of the fans objecting to something for so long or so aggressively and so on. I'll give some example that are very related to us and our discussion:

Remember the time before Busan games? Remember how sure everybody was of Iran's failure? Remember how this very media smashed IFF, Branko, and the Omid team? Remember how frustrating it was that actually led to lose of one of our great IFF boss every, Farahani? He gave up because he simply couldn't deal with extremism. He simply couldn't deal with people that constantly forget the very simple question "Is it HIM ... or .... is it ME"? At the end of the day, they were left with serious "khit bazi". What did they do? simple statements such as Branko did well, we were wrong and so. But no lessons learned for the future. Same strategy, same extremism, same aganeda type campaign. Nothing learned.

Remember how some of the very members with exact same extremism were convinced Karimi wasn't worth a dime? Remember how sure they were Karimi won't even make it to Europe, and again how sure they were he won't survive there? What happened to that extremism? Did we learn anything from it? NOT REALLY! Just fooling ourselves with simple logics as "well, you can't compare this Karimi to that Karimi" but forgetting that this was never the subject of discussion. It was a)He won't make it there (with extremism and lot of harsh words and no amendment about except this or that) b)He won't be taken (with extremism and lot of harsh words and no explaining about how in the world this currently worthless player and future great player which is no longer "that Karimi" would be bought in the first place by a top 5/10 club in the world?!!)

These are just EXAMPLES to help people learn from the history. Or at least for others to watch and learn how our history is repeating itself again and again.... and unfortunately that is a fact in it's own that you can't do anything about it ....

**Doctor DOOM** · 02-19-2006, 02:21 PM

AHA !!

I knew this karimi thing would come up.

yet, I wonder why again and again "that member" has repeated this, but no-one seems to even read or understand his view:

I remember "this member" said :

a pile of mud is a pile of mud.

it all depends on the craftsman and the craftsman's skills ( expertise, experience, abilities ... call it what u want ) to make something out of it.

while one craftsman may look at this pile of mud, and say I can make a bowl out of it - some may actually do it, no matter how crooked and uneven - , another craftsman can take the same mud and make a work of art out of it.

so basically until this mudpile was not in the RIGHT hands, it represented , at best , a crooked bowl.

now, it is not "that member's" fault if for 5 years this mudpile was handled by the first craftsman, and at best we got a bowl , often sitting unevenly on the table !
while the second craftsman, had to handle it for a couple of months, to make it look like an impressive sculpture , worhty of many ppl's admiration now.

and I dont remember "that member" saying anything like "he wont be taken" or ...
what I DO remember is he was asking for his benching, so it would push him to get in shape and try harder to regain his spot in starters.
it does make sense, as we now see this happen with nosrati.
who is now, tearing his arse, trying to regain his lost spot.
in the end, who wins?
TM.
I also remember "other" members who ignored this BASIC fact, and didnt even entertain such notions of benching karimi, ... probably becoz his name was "karimi" !!!

------------------

I hope I conveyed the message of "that member" well to the rest of the friends here, and they DO get the drift.

nice try, agh' mansoor.
better luck next time.

cheers all.

**Mansoor** · 02-19-2006, 04:36 PM

I read your post Peyman jaan, and I made sure I read it again to see if you have addressed the issued discussed, but other than "decorations that I referred to in last past", all I can see is a story about a mud and all that. Again and again, the main issue remained unanswered:

The extreme approach that you had back then that awfully resembles your current identical approach. Back then, you didn't talk about mud or mud pile or the craftsman. May be you wish you had, but all your talk was in very aggressive way degrading Karimi, making fun of HIM (nobody else) and how "naive and immature" members (sounds familiar?) are thinking Karimi is gonna be taken by European clubs. No, there was no talk of craftsman, the approach was personal attacks on Karimi with lot of adjectives not appropriate to address a Team MELLI member (sounds familiar?). Your wish was to get rid of the "mud", throw it out and put your beautiful flower instead (guess who)!

That "useless" Karimi while being the most critical member of TM (and has been for the past few years), was aggressively and in a very extreme approach was being degraded by you, and at the same time, a multi-million(or perhaps billion) dollar club, top 10 if not top 5 in the world, was studying him for months and months (over 6 month, according to Bayern management) to get him!!! Back then, there was no craftsman involved yet to justify his hiring, it was his talent and his level of football. You had no referral to "repair" and "fixing", you only wanted to "get rid of him" (sounds familiar?).

Your "extreme" didn't even stop there when you were seriously hit with reality, and still insist that this is a "business approach" and he will fail soon and had long talks in the forums with one of your pals at the time about how badly he is gonna fail.

Now, this is not about Karimi and what happened to him. It was just a clear example. There is no need for explanation. Nothing would explain a clear mistake you made. And there would be nothing wrong with the "prediction" in normal fashion. The example is a good witness to how "extremism" very well explains the "hidden message" within it. That was the topic, not Karimi.

You don't have to be so sensitive about Karimi issue. Everybody makes mistake once in a while, yours truly included. It is the question of do we learn from our mistakes, especially learning about ourselves? Do we start to ask when so frustrated and angry with something we can't understand or agree to extreme level: "Is it HIM..... OR ..... IS IT ME"? ...

Cheers mate.

**Doctor DOOM** · 02-19-2006, 06:09 PM

agh' mansoor jan,

My stance on the matter of "ppl's right to talk about football matters" is as I have already written earlier.and I have nothing more to add.

hence I did not address anything on that matter.
however after reading your karimi side issue, which YOU brought up, I thought maybe you have forgotten my stance on THIS issue. so I wrote this bit again.

but, now that I know you havent forgotten this bit also, it warms my heart and also see no need in having thought you may have forgottn it.

and let me help you along with what I said about karimi at that time:
they were not what u just wrote, so much that they were more like the following :

1- he is in for a rude shock in europe, if he thinks he can survive at a european league in this manner

2- this individualistic style will not go down well in europe and I doubt any coach would too. teamwork and ability to be a part of a TEAM, is what will decide his fate, not senseless dribbling of 5-6 players while going nowhere.

3- with such lack of stamina and physical fitness, and ....

4- we must get rid of players who just walk on the pitch. benching would bring them to this reality,...

remember?
I still stand by these statements.

now, it doesnt take a genious or a nuclear scientist to observe how karimi's game and physicality has changed after joining bayern.

1- he has made a total 180 degree turn-about from his UAE days and football.
to deny that is to deny that sun rises from east.

2- his teamwork has risen to the fore, instead of that drone-like dribbling with no aim that we used to see him do ( most probably becoz arab kids enjoy dribbling and trickery / flash more than one-touch game ).

3- his stamina and physicality has also increased tremendously, and that is the most obvious change anyone shd acknowledge.

so .... to sum up this little diversion from the main topic, I must say, I still stand by those statements, just as much as I do by the above ones.

did I make a mistake on this issue?
DA'ASH, I . DONT . THINK . SO .AT. ALL

---------------------

hope that was sufficient to clear the air.

now I cant think of anything else to add to my earlier post on the actual TOPIC of this thread.
and as I said in the beginning of this post, I stand by it.

so if you want my opinion on the TOPIC of this thread, look no further than my earlier post.

cheers

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