COLLECTIVISM vs. INDIVIDUALISM

[maij]

COLLECTIVISM vs. INDIVIDUALISM

A few pieces of news and events in Iran's football , including some discussions here in the PFDC forums recently , highlights what I have always feared in our society. The prevalence of individualism over collectivism in football and society.

Take a look at this piece of news.

على سعيدلو:
جدايى كاشانى خيلى هم مهم نيست
با رفتن حبيب كاشانى تمام فعاليت هاى پرسپوليس متوقف شده و تكليف هيچ چيز اين باشگاه روشن نيست. البته رييس هيات مديره پرسپوليس سعى دارد اوضاع را آرام جلوه دهد. على سعيدلو در اين باره مى گويد: با رفتن كاشانى از پرسپوليس، فعاليت هاى باشگاه متوقف نشده و اين همه نگرانى بى مورد است و علت اين همه جنجال از سوى رسانه ها را نمى دانم.
با رفتن يك نفر كار باشگاه پرسپوليس به پايان نمى رسد و سازمان تربيت بدنى به عنوان صاحب و مسؤول باشگاه به اداره آن خواهد پرداخت .
از به وجود آمدن اين همه جنجال به علت استعفاى كاشانى از پرسپوليس متاسفم و فكر نمى كنم رفتن يك نفر از باشگاه پرسپوليس اين قدر مهم باشد.
جاى نگرانى نيست و به زودى باشگاه پرسپوليس ساماندهى مى شود.
نبايد جدايى يك نفر از پرسپوليس را اين قدر مطرح كنيم چون با رفتن كاشانى ، آسمان به زمين نمى رسد.

Can you imagine that the fortune of the most popular club in Iran is based on one man's action? Followed by this piece of news ;

فقط تا آخر هفته منتظر پرسپوليس مى مانم
واعظى: شرط تمديد قراردادم ماندن كاشانى بود

If there ever was any indication that the Iranians are individualistic, then these two examples highlight why this nation fails in collective efforts and teamwork. While as individuals, they might excel and even exceed expectations, but as a group they disappoint and fail.

Football , despite the glories of the late sixties and the seventies , has failed to grab any major honors since, and if we assume that there are enough talented Persian sport men being produced , one must look at this fact closely to realize what are the reasons behind the shortcomings in football.

Ehsan Hadadi is a young athlete in Iran. In a few days time , he will be challenging the World and Olympic Discuss Throw record in a sport hardly known for popularity in Iran. Like Haddadi , the record books are full of Iranian champions in Wrestling , Weightlifting and martial arts (all individual sports) but Team Melli could not pass stage one of the Olympic qualification despite the huge amount of money poured into football in comparison to other sport.

"COLLECTIVISM: Collectivism is defined as the theory and practice that makes some sort of group rather than the individual the fundamental unit of political, social, and economic concern. In theory, collectivists insist that the claims of groups, associations, or the state must normally supersede the claims of individuals." -- Stephen Grabill and Gregory M. A. Gronbacher

This society tends to emphasize the role of individuals. Hence a failure or success of any process (particularly football) is credited or blamed on one individual rather than the modern effective thinking of collective effort.

The reliance on individuals is a very high risk process, be it at work or sport. The Europeans and the Japanese developed the concept of collectivism to an art , hence their current status of superiority in industry and sport amongst other things. A process should not fail because of one individual failure to perform, it should be a group and team work backed by a tight system that allows alternatives and ensures that the process is continued and performance is not affected.

We tend to over emphasize one person responsibility in group sport like football. It is a common mentality and perhaps one reason that the development of the most popular sport in Iran has been a disappointment.

There is no over night solution for this, or an off-the-shelf cure. Unless people do not realize that collectivism is much more productive and effective. We always depend on a single man's brilliance to save our day , rather than stress on group work , team work and collective efforts.

[zzgloo]

Yet another thought provoking Thread majid jaan.............
This issue, is extremely " BIG ", and has much greater roots that can be solved by one or two generation or a Government......and it may never be solved....and it may not even be considered as a problem.....
It is particularly probelmatic in Bussiness and work ethics.yet some may consider it as,what distinguishes us !
It may be related to the level of civilization or advancement of Industries.
....................
I remember when I was in Japan, Once I saw a girl ( An Elevator Operator in her uniform and white hat and gloves) who used to wellcome people to the big clothing store,where she was working at, she was assigned to wellcome customers, and explain what type of merchandize existed on different levels of thier clothing store....and she did her job, by saying pre-practiced statements that she had memorized....
The interesting point about her was that,She said all those statements inside the elevator,even when there was no body occupying the elevator..as it was apparant through transparent glass walls of the elevator.

Some cultures have gone too far, even in USA, that there is very little individualism...and people have very little opinion of thier own....this can easyly be noticed in USA ......
Totaly opposite of our culture, which any single person has solution for every all world problems.
Some western countries such as Italy,are more like us, while they do have higher level of civilization ( I define civilization as obaying the laws and roles ),yet they seem to have more individualistic cultures....
So, it is a mixture of culture and civilization., or a little of what Karl Marx used to call,capitalist alianation.....yet as in case of Italy,the adavancement of industries or bussiness may not intirely solve it.

[kaz]

I think Iranians generally have a problem that can be summed up in "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians". Everybody wants to be the boss. Everybody has to have it their own way. Everybody has to be the star.

[maij]

I think Iranians generally have a problem that can be summed up in "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians". Everybody wants to be the boss. Everybody has to have it their own way. Everybody has to be the star.

You can say that again.....

To me it is definitely the case of too many chiefs , not enough Indians.

[maij]

Yet another thought provoking Thread majid jaan.............
This issue, is extremely " BIG ", and has much greater roots that can be solved by one or two generation or a Government......and it may never be solved....and it may not even be considered as a problem.....
It is particularly probelmatic in Bussiness and work ethics.yet some may consider it as,what distinguishes us !
It may be related to the level of civilization or adva...........

Bahram Jan ...while it is not a simple problem to cure , and as you said it might take generations , one thing can that be done about it is AWARENESS PROGRAM.....The west have done quite well in making their people be aware of issues such as Human rights, Apartheid , Global warning amongst many other issues too many to mention here.

The awareness program does not mean that people will strictly follow it specially if it is promoted by not-too-popular government that is distrusted by people, but is does not mean it will fail in Iran either.

The most glorious success of awareness program in Iran is Birth Control. It is been recognized even by UN as one of the most global success of such program.

So , it can be done.......in Iran.

[Ali Chicago]

Actually I think, one of the main problems in Iran was the suppression of individualisem by the collective (under the disguise of Nationalisem, Islam, Commuisem, Rajavi, Khomaini, Shah, X, Y, Z). Independent thinking is what is missing in Iran. What is abound is cynasisem due to the all the defeats that we as a people have suffered during the past 6 centuries in the hands of the forigners or worst the dictators in our own country. Biggest example was the betrayal of Khomaini and his followers to the spirit of 1357 revolution. So what you see as individualisem, isnt' individulisem, it is negativity and narcisem.

That is why we always love a strong hand to rule us. Be it Shah, Rajvi, some leftist with a thick Mostache who claims he knows a soultion for every thing.


What you have posted is typical dynamics that exists in any footballing country. Playes want more money and use different tactics to get more money, clubs want to keep the cost down. I can't see how you use that example of the so called individualisem.

As far as Kashani's role, it was undenialbe that he had a major role in PP's succes. Can you imagine the Mancheter United without Sir Alex Fergusen or role of Guss Hiddink in the current Russian team's success?

[zzgloo]

Western Europe is not the big a deal it once was .

Sorry,I meant to make another thread......please disregard !