Parameters for TM call

[BehzadB]

I think we all have seen the list in general forum.
so I'd like to know what are the parameters for calling X and not Y to TM.

TM list and DD's objections..

peyman jan, there are a million reasons why a coach can pick X and not Y.. there are no parameters as you state them..

parameters depend on the dude in charge.. you do something the way you think is the best way, another man does the same and both are right and they have done it using a totally different method or tools..

a wise coach once said if you want the chef to cook for you, you let the man buy his own grocery, .. Bill Parcels

Daie can call third division players and it shouldn't matter..
we have to let him find his team first and then we start picking them apart one by one..

[zzgloo]

Turkey, in recent Euro 2008, played with 9 of his main team,seating on the bench against Germany....and played excelently.
I do not think problem with Ali Daei is " player selection ", he could go with all Saipa players as TM players, as far as I am concerened.....if he had " the righ stuff ".
Our handicap in following round, will not be ,player selection !

[Doctor DOOM]

......agree with many European coaches who brought a midfielder to the left or right defenese line to use their offensive and ball distribution ability. .....

are you arguing the "GENERAL IDEA" of using mids as defenders ... or are you arguing "using zareh as LB" ?

coz if it's the former, I have no problem with it. we see that all the time.
Kia is an example of using a mid as a defender.
kaabi is another one.


but if it is the latter, then I dont see a need to explain , since you've already convinced urself it'd be wrong.
I'll just direct you to watch the games against uae and syria, explicitly observing how ZAREH does with blocking, intercepting and how many times he gets outrun, passed, dribbled, ... as well as how many of his passes end up as turn overs.


now, which is it?
the IDEA ? or Zareh as LB ?

[Doctor DOOM]

TM list and DD's objections..
peyman jan, there are a million reasons why a coach can pick X and not Y.. there are no parameters as you state them.. .....

since you guys are addressing my post, I might as well answer them.

1- mind telling me why a coach ( whoever he may be ) picks only one player for a post that needs the most attention and scrutiny, since that post has been the most controversial one in the past few years?

2- mind explaining what may go on in any coach's mind to NOT BOTHER WITH TESTING OF ALTERNATIVES for this post, even in test games?

3- Mind letting us know if you have been satisfied with zareh's performance. and I sincerely hope your answers are not borne out of lajbazi ( as I see some others behave that way* ), but out of sincere observation of zareh's displays?


afterall, arent these "test games" there to TEST players or tactics or ... . especially the issues that prove to be a team's weaknesses?
damn right I will object to such a thinking, whoever the coach may be.



now, some ppl may adopt the "I dont know what the coach thinks and I wouldnt want to ask" policy. some try to probe the thinking behind these acts. I ask ppl, maybe someone can come up with an explanation.
believe me football is NOT nuclear physics.
at least I dont behave as if football is such an intricate, complicated sport that it takes 2 PhD's to figure out what is what!

If I see 4-5 GK's being called for one post, I explain it by "daei wants to test his main and alternatives".
then it makes not choosing some of the better LB's in the league even more ridiculous. and I WILL question the hypocrisy & double standards. ( inspite of some attempted sarcastic comments ... which usually has a way of coming 'round back later )

it's also very amusing to see such words from a member who used to point the finger at branko for the exact things!!!!!!!! very amusing indeed.


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* - I have noticed it in a few others who sort of form a pattern or policy. if they dont agree with a member , they will oppose whatever the topic may be, just so the alignment is continued!
which just doesnt make sense to me.

[purple_haze]

First of all DD jan, I must that I have my own thoughts and questions about Daei's selections about some of the questionable players.

But I think, TM coaching position has become very similar to the refereeing issue of the big tehran derby in a way. As long as a foreign guy has the job, nobody really questions his impartialness, but when an iranian guy is there, whoever that might be, the impartialness is questioned.

This is very much true at least in the beginning of every TM coaches reign but it's usually stabilized after a while, so the real question is if it's the same with Daei too. Hopefully it is.

Remember, when Branko was there, there were a lot of Foolad players, then a lot of Pas players. When GN was there, TM was filled with Esteghlal players, but that got stabilized as well. The only difference is that those selections mostly reflected the state of IPL at the given time, with all those clubs being top clubs and stabilized into having less players from the given clubs, when they didn't do as well as they had done before.

With the recent events and the questions around the person Daei, how he suddenly became the TM coach, his personality which in my opinion has changed a lot (as a player, for me Daei was someone who always worked hard and earned what he got and was a true professional, not someone who is openly using his connections and making new powerful ones through non-football related matters), his mixing and combining of his personal business deals with his TM coaching job, like his clothing line issue with TM and IFF and him being a share holder and board member in Saipa, while Saipa becomes the new TM filter and his omission of players who have had issues with him at some point of his playing career, there are a lot of questions surrounding him at this point.

I think the best thing right now, is to give him some more time and see how things develope. I for one still have hope that finally the Daei who is/was hungry for success in football and not the Daei who is hungry for power prevails and make TM successful.

[BehzadB]

it's also very amusing to see such words from a member who used to point the finger at branko for the exact things!!!!!!!! very amusing indeed.

How can you say that...

Branko was there for at least 4 years before I started to point the finger. How long has Daie been around?? or does it make no difference?

didn't I say in my last post , "wait for him to find his team first, then we'll pick them apart one by one"?? or did you not read that part and just read the first sentence on my post and clicked on the quote button??


This is NOT an exact science, no matter how hard you try to make it look that way with defining self-made parameters.. it just doesn't work that way.

You see, read the questions you asked me in your reply... you are asking me to tell you what goes through a "coach's Mind"?? How? Can you tell me what goes through any body's mind?

You want Zare out? Fine.. please name your starting line up. We have a game tomorrow and you are the coach.. name your starters.. I want to see who your team will be made up of and then I will pick on your selection..




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* - I have noticed it in a few others who sort of form a pattern or policy. if they dont agree with a member , they will oppose whatever the topic may be, just so the alignment is continued!
which just doesnt make sense to me.

I don't know what you mean there.. If you are referring to me opposing some of your comments (player selection by Daie, TM formation) , I am not sure what to say.. I state my opinion, to any one that I respond to.. and my respond is based on my personal opinion about the subject matter, not who I am responding to..

[Doctor DOOM]

1-
As long as a foreign guy has the job, nobody really questions his impartialness, but when an iranian guy is there, whoever that might be, the impartialness is questioned.



2-
Remember, when Branko was there, there were a lot of Foolad players, then a lot of Pas players. When GN was there, TM was filled with Esteghlal players, but that got stabilized as well.




3-
I think the best thing right now, is to give him some more time and see how things develope. .

1- surely you cant be saying that about ME.
I think my record shows I dont care where the coach is born. if he's good, I'll compliment. if he's not doing things right, I'll criticize.
In fact I was even harsher on branko if you go back and read my comments.
this part doesnt apply to me.


2- But that does not address what I'm saying.
where did you see me complaining "why there are so many saipa players" ?
I understand all coaches start with more familiar players and then slowly get settled and ... .
If you have read my posts, you'd know I'm not picking on the club affiliations.
I ask about specific players. one just happens to be a saipa player. the other from bargh.
so this one also doesnt apply to me.


3- once again, I must urge ppl to read my posts before condemning me for mutiny or disruption or unfair critique.

I have divided one's expectations from a new coach to short term & long term ones.
in short term, I have repeatedly said, we shd not expect the new coach to come up with a fluid team, highly coordinated and impeccable strategies.
have I said anything of the sorts?

But any new coach ( especially one who has played and lived in Iran for a few years to know our football, our players, our nature of football, ... ) shd show some aspects of the game that have nothing to do with time.

aspects such as player selection, or issues like utilizing set pieces or ... etc.

If you notice, I have not criticized daei for TM's lack of coordination or teamwork.
but no coach needs time to make sure he picks the right players ( after living in that country ) or accept the importance of set pieces or ... .


when you go to drive in an alien country, no1 expects you to get all the rules and signs right the first time.
but you are expected to know which is the back of the car , which is the front. or what a gear is or what is the use of a hand brake.

[Doctor DOOM]

^^ dear behzad, I wish you had addressed what I wrote, isntead of the general comments on one criticizing coaches.

I did talk about daei's reluctance to test players for the particular post of LB.
is that true or not?

I did ask about the importance of the particular post LB.
correct?

I did say in his new list he shows he is NOT going to bother about this particular post and it shows through not calling any of the league's LB's ... EVEN FOR FREAKING TRIALS.
true or not?

I did say in my view which is shared by many, zareh did not do well, and if a player doesnt do well against such low grade opposition it doesnt need an einstein to deduct he'll do even worse against the top asian teams.
correct?

I did say for the same reason it is natural to expect the coach to make sure he has "the very best players" available to him in every post, especially in those that we have shown weakness.
is it true or not?


now, isnt this reluctance or refusal to even TEST ( f**k actually giving chance to alternatives in OFFICIAL games ... coz that would be too good & logical to be true! ) players for the WEAKEST SPOT in the team extremely similar to branko's ?

mind you, this does not need a coach to be here for 2 months or 20 years.
when we have weakness in a spot, the logical thing is to test some players to make sure:
1- we have tried all our options
2- we have picked the best of them.

even if it is zareh in the end, at least we'd know he proved himself in competition against 3-4 other players in test games.
( and before some of you waste ur time on "oh he's tried" , let me say one thing: has he tried players who play in this post in their clubs? coz zandi, beikzadeh, niki, ... even zareh dont qualify )
surely you can understand one's amazement at absence of even one defender from the IPL's best defense; Paas. while we have a player from IPL's third WORST team with defensive record, start and get fixed at TM !!!
it's just ridiculous.
it's PATHETIC !

how does the length of the tenure figure here?

the car has a punctured tyre.
whether you are a driver of 30 years experience or 3 months experience, it doesnt make a difference.
or if you've had the car for 2 months or 2 years.
you HAVE TO see the tyre's punctured and you have to change it.

[BehzadB]

I did say for the same reason it is natural to expect the coach to make sure he has "the very best players" available to him in every post, especially in those that we have shown weakness.
is it true or not?

Best players according to whom? You?

baba jan, you think Zareh is horrible, another fan disagrees.. another coach may agree with you, but this one doesn't..

It's all matter of opinion..

Your want to know what goes through Daie's mind when he picks Zareh.. I mean, come on man.. how can you ask that question..

and how can you say there is no difference between a coach who has been the coach of TM for 4 years and one that has been TM coach for 4 weeks??

I just don't get it..


I actually tried to make it simple.. I asked you to name your starting 11.. please go ahead and name your starters and then I will pick on your list, with logic and reason and prove to you that my starting 11 are better than yours.. you wana try it??

[Doctor DOOM]

Tomorrow I'm going to a car race.

I'm going to pick a hyundai and not try other cars ( we have cars ranging from Lada to Merc's ), coz I believe hyundai is the best car for racing.

as a friend, arent you going to tell me "why dont you try this other car or that one, before setting ur mind on the hyundai?" ??
you may think a BMW is better. someone else may think a peykan is better. and another guy may agree that the hyundai is the better one. that's but natural.

but if you dont tell me to try a couple of other cars before entering the race, then you're not such a good friend.


I hope you got it now.


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as for the line up matter, apparently you havent got what I'm trying to say.

for example we all can come up with 2-3 names for each post and come up with good defense for the choices.
like Left mid: zandi, beikzadeh, madanchi, hajsafi, ...
each one is a good player. tried and tested and are among the best we have in Iran.
But if you pick on shirin faraz's left midfield, instead of these guys, then you better expect a lot of questions over this pick.

for right mid, one may pick a lot of names like kaabi, kia, kazemian, .... and the same rule applies here.

the point is TO PICK THE BEST WE HAVE IN IRAN for each post.
( if you refute this, then read no further and spare your time and mine from continuing this discussion )

if you want to tell me zareh is the best we have at LB, then I would really want to hear that argument.
is he?
perhaps you may want to start with WHERE HE PLAYS AT HIS CLUB.
if you prove he plays at LB ( which he doesnt), then you can continue making ur case.
but if he doesnt even play there in his crappy club, and the coach who has a limited number of players ( as opposed to daei's unlimited pool ) STILL PICKS SOMEONE ELSE to play the LB, then pray tell what kind of a case would you have ?

if we are supposed to believe that zareh is the best we have for LB post in all of IRAN, then, my friend, you'd have to really work hard to make the case why his own coach doesnt see him fit for the post !

I hope now I made my point clear to all

[Doctor DOOM]

Mind you, all the above is besides the principle of :
"a national team is comprised of the BEST we have in our country".

coz if ppl dont agree with this principle, then they HAVE TO expect a lot of criticism and arguments against their choices.

[Martin-Reza]

Kaebi also was barely ever used as RB at his clubs. That doesn't mean he's a bad rightback, actually he is probably the best RB we have. It's common that especially weaker clubs use good players in more offensive positions of they can play that.

And you finally need to understand that Daei doesn't need to test players who already obviously were worse than other options in training or in the league. Daei (and his 2 predecessors) saw the likes of Asadi numerous times in IPL and in TM training and none of them wanted to have them. That means they are CRAP even compared to Zare!! Or do you think 3 coaches in a row invited a player to see him closely and oversaw a real gem??

And on your final comment: the best players from a coach's view obviously are far different from Dr. Doom's favourites. Either all past TM coaches are wrong or you are.

[Doctor DOOM]

kaabi has been used as RB in many teams.
and you forget, kaabi's case has been proven game after game.
there is no doubt about kaabi's abilities.
there IS a gigantic question mark over zareh's however.

but also this: when kaabi was NOT in form, GN rightfully used another player as RB.
why?
becoz he didnt care about the player's "name", when his form doesnt justify his presence.


I also hope you're not calling EZ's 2 games as anything to refer to.
are you?
and it is quite amusing to use what ppl are arguing about as evidence in the same argument !!
we're saying it's not night becoz the sun is up. and the evidence to prove it is night is: "it is night" !!!!
hah !
so basically you have only Daei and branko to support zareh's case. but the argument here is daei is behaving exactly like branko ( refer to other threads on the worrisome number of similarities ), in whose case finally, was proven wrong choices and decisions!

madanchi, kazemian, mobaali, karimi, kia, VH, Talebloo, mohamadi, akbari, .... also havent been called by daei. next month you're gonna use this as "evidence" they were not good players?
makes no sense !

we are arguing a flawed process. the evidence FOR this process cannot be the same process!

[Martin-Reza]

He was using another player because he had a Bundesliga player for this position at his service and I personally disagree with his decision to bench him. There isn't a similar alternative for leftbeck and considering the level of leftbacks we have Zare has proven himself game after game as well.

[Doctor DOOM]

..... have Zare has proven himself game after game as well.

besides refering you to the thread : "left back" , I'd only say this:
if what zareh showed was proof enough for you, then we have nothing more to talk about.

perhaps a re-viewing of our last 3-4 games would clear matters.
but then again, it's all there in that thread.


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I guess I'll start claiming "shirin faraz" plays football like barcelona.
that ought to do.