The plight of Ali Karimi

[Ali Chicago]

At the end of the day , if Daei reaches the World Cup without Karimi or Kia or Hashemian , then we need to order huge tonnage of humble pies for the doubters. If he doesn't then he will certainly be crucified and the blame culture will directly relate the failure to the lack of these players in the squad ( even if the case is something different)

.

While I totally admire your principal of supporting the TM management as a true fan. I have two questions:

Where were you during the GN era, where PFDC was turned to a propaganda tool against him without him doing anything yet. Look at the polls on GN, his approval never got above 10% if that. While some of that cynisiem was justified a big part of it, was playing with the emotions of young kids on PFDC and organzied an effective campaign against the GN. Where were you at that time? How come I didn't see this pricipaled approach? This what I see as lack of consistancy is troubling to me (whether there is bias toward Daie as a person)? But I rather ask for your kind explanations, rather than making assumptions.

2- If TM (god forbid, heck I am not even a beleiver but can't find a better word my dimay if TM doesn't make it to the WC2010), doesn't make it to the WC2010, do you think Daie will have a big part in that? Or like many Branko supporters after WC2006 simply turn around and say "Well, this was the level of our football"? Althought Masnavi's was written about Branko's performance in WC2006, but this was basically the argument of Branko Supporters.

Maybe putting it in this way is better. What are the success and failuer measures for Daie in your opinion?

The way, I see it, two teams from 5 teams directly get promoted. The third teams play head to head and then against New Zeland. So Iran has a fairly easy path ahead (comparing to the days that only first team of the group was getting promoted) 1998 under Mayli Kohan. So, to me Iran not making to WC2010 is an abject failuer of the TM and while all of the blame shouldn't go to the head coach, a major part of it must. In case of a lackluster performance and somehow making it, is the more grey area and harder to judge. But what do you define as success and failuer of Daie coaching in this case.
In the case of TM under Daie promote amogst the first two teams in the group with great performance, of course there is no argument and I personally order the so called humility pie for myself to doubt him.

Please define your criteria, so after the end of the qualification round, we can revisit this and have something to do a performance evaluation.

It is a risk that Daei is taking and I guess he knows what he is doing ( or at least I hope that). Nevertheless , if any player or players are imposed on a coach , despite his rejection of them , it means that the coach is not culpable or accountable, he is immediately indemnified.

See you yourself have your doubts about his decisions, see the "at least I hope that" comment by yourself. Nobody has a pedar ***hteghi about Daie, but his behavior (if nothing else his arrogance toward Media and criticisem) is a huge red flag IMO.

Aragones , despite huge protests from Media and the fans, refused Rauel Gonzales , the darling of the Spanish football ( there was actually some marches in Madrid and several high level protests)....Look at what happened. Spain won the Cup and younger players made it happen.

I don't like any such scenarios. I hope that TM makes it to the World Cup with Karimi and Kia as a personal preference. But at the end of the day , the Team and the country's reputation means a million time more to me than my personal preferences of having player X or Y.

You had a nice post about the complexity of dealing with Human beings. I actually lecture in "Human factors in Aviation" and I know very well how such factors affect the behavior of people. There is no one solution for every person , some are different than others...and as you said , Karimi is different , so is Daei.

To be honest, I found the comparison of Raul vs Torres was a no brainer IMO. Torres scored so many goal in Liverpool and how many goals Raul scored in the Real Madrid? Raul in a way was a copy of last 5 years of Daie playing. While I can see the logic in your comaprison based on the "player popularity", but I would counter that, selection of Torres vs. Raul can be explained on a somewhat logical bases. Not even inviting Karimi, Kia Hashemian can't be explained with any reason. If there is I really would like to hear it. Plus imagine if Aragones wouldn't have successed, he would have paid a heavy price (wouldn't he)? Bottom line, coaches make a decision and that decision supposed to be based on certain logic or not based on "tasfeeyeh Hesab". If it is based on a personal agend agaisnt player X or Y, I reserve the right to question the decision.

Bottom line, all of these decisions will be judged in few months. I hope I am wrong and out team Melli make it to the WC2010 final and I order a tons of humble pie as you suggested. I rather I get humiliated rather than hopes of 70 million Iranian who don't have much going in their day to day life inside Iran get dashed in ashes of not making to the final of the WC 2010.

[maij]

While I totally admire your principal of supporting the TM management as a true fan. I have two questions:

Where were you during the GN era, where PFDC was turned to a propaganda tool against him without him doing anything yet. Look at the polls on GN, his approval never got above 10% if that. While some of that cynisiem was justified a big part of it, was playing with the emotions of young kids on PFDC and organzied an effective campaign against the GN. Where were you at that time? How come I didn't see this pricipaled approach? This what I see as lack of consistancy is troubling to me (whether there is bias toward Daie as a person)? But I rather ask for your kind explanations, rather than making assumptions.

I have answered this questions of yours before , and I don't see why should I go on again into another detailed explanation again , suffice to say that a much closer look at Ghlenoei during the actual tournament and a personal touch with him , I had nothing but support for the guy. I still have much respect for him as much as he had respect for me during the tournament.

2- If TM (god forbid, heck I am not even a beleiver but can't find a better word my dimay if TM doesn't make it to the WC2010), doesn't make it to the WC2010, do you think Daie will have a big part in that? Or like many Branko supporters after WC2006 simply turn around and say "Well, this was the level of our football"? Althought Masnavi's was written about Branko's performance in WC2006, but this was basically the argument of Branko Supporters.

I have never been a prophet , nor did I ever indulged in this "Pishbeeni" game that many Iranians just adore.

When the time comes , I will have my say, but up to then , I leave prophecy for the people who excel in it.

Maybe putting it in this way is better. What are the success and failuer measures for Daie in your opinion?

Please define your criteria, so after the end of the qualification round, we can revisit this and have something to do a performance evaluation.

The measure of the coach success at this stage is qualification to the World Cup. His failure will be if Team Melli is eliminated from the World Cup.

See you yourself have your doubts about his decisions, see the "at least I hope that" comment by yourself. Nobody has a pedar ***hteghi about Daie, but his behavior (if nothing else his arrogance toward Media and criticisem) is a huge red flag IMO.

Doubts ????? I don't know about that , I call it reality.

Thinking that Team Melli is going to make it without any shadow of doubt is not in my dictionary. I believe any great team in the World can stumble. Read about Brazil in this WC tournament and perhaps you will find out what I am talking about.

To be honest, I found the comparison of Raul vs Torres was a no brainer IMO. Torres scored so many goal in Liverpool and how many goals Raul scored in the Real Madrid? Raul in a way was a copy of last 5 years of Daie playing. While I can see the logic in your comaprison based on the "player popularity", but I would counter that, selection of Torres vs. Raul can be explained on a somewhat logical bases. Not even inviting Karimi, Kia Hashemian can't be explained with any reason. If there is I really would like to hear it. Plus imagine if Aragones wouldn't have successed, he would have paid a heavy price (wouldn't he)? Bottom line, coaches make a decision and that decision supposed to be based on certain logic or not based on "tasfeeyeh Hesab". If it is based on a personal agend agaisnt player X or Y, I reserve the right to question the decision.

Hmmmmmmm..... I would have given you full marks if you came up with this explanation BEFORE the event .....NOT after it all happened. Sure it is a no brainer after the whole world knew the answer.

Bottom line, all of these decisions will be judged in few months. I hope I am wrong and out team Melli make it to the WC2010 final and I order a tons of humble pie as you suggested. I rather I get humiliated rather than hopes of 70 million Iranian who don't have much going in their day to day life inside Iran get dashed in ashes of not making to the final of the WC 2010.

Frankly , I don't really care if one guy or a million eat a humble pie. I want to see Team Melli in the World Cup with Daei , Ghelnoei or anyone for that matter.

[Ali Chicago]

I have answered this questions of yours before , and I don't see why should I go on again into another detailed explanation again , suffice to say that a much closer look at Ghlenoei during the actual tournament and a personal touch with him , I had nothing but support for the guy. I still have much respect for him as much as he had respect for me during the tournament.

Well agha Majid, from what I recall and correct me if I am wrong and PFDC threads are there to prove to disprove my claim. Before the AFC tournament, I don't recall to see a single thread or post from you in supporting GN. During the AFC tournament I saw a few posts from you about GN. That is it. It is not my claim or your claim. PFDC threads are there to witness our claims. It is not an inquisition forum to say why someone did or didn't support a coach. I am just puzzled toward duality in standards of supporting the coach. Granted in your much less compared than general crowd in PFDC.

I have never been a prophet , nor did I ever indulged in this "Pishbeeni" game that many Iranians just adore.

When the time comes , I will have my say, but up to then , I leave prophecy for the people who excel in it.



The measure of the coach success at this stage is qualification to the World Cup. His failure will be if Team Melli is eliminated from the World Cup.

I respect you more than to claim I feel you dodging the question. Just promise me something, if god forbid, TM didn't make to the WC, please no excuses of Kafashian and lack of soccer pitches and Aliabadi and IRI. Success is for Ali Daie and failure will be for Ali Daie (in big part). I am not claiming it will be all Ali Daie's fault, but I don't want to see million excuses I heard after the WC2006 ( this was our potential, Korea and KSA are such and such, South Korea has chah chah and bah bah, etc. etc.). Can we commit to this ?

Doubts ????? I don't know about that , I call it reality. Hmmmmmmm..... I would have given you full marks if you came up with this explanation BEFORE the event .....NOT after it all happened. Sure it is a no brainer after the whole world knew the answer.

As for the whole Torres vs. Raul, Arragones isn't a strong beleive in Torres either. He subbed him every game pretty much, actually he kept the other Spain forward Villa in before he got injured but subbed Torress. So to you maybe the whole Torres thing was a big deal, but Spain team was much much more than mere Torres vs. Raul or for that matter any signle player in Spain.

Thinking that Team Melli is going to make it without any shadow of doubt is not in my dictionary. I believe any great team in the World can stumble. Read about Brazil in this WC tournament and perhaps you will find out what I am talking about.

.

This is one area I really differ from you and with your background , I am really disappointed to see this attitude. Brazil stumbling of cours will happen, but it doesn't Brazil managers ever gonna come and say, guys well we may still not make it to the WC final. Goal is set and is different from what may or maynot happen. Expectation (avarages, medians) whatever you want to call it, is different from what may or maynot happen.

I explained the way the group is setup with two teams directly promote and then third team plays head to head against the other team and winner plays against NewZeland, if our team doesn't make it to the WC2010, it is a clear failure. I am not asking for Miracle (Japan, Austarlia, South Korea, KSA, Iran) are the 5 strongest team, so Iran must be to make it from combined Asian, Oceania 5 seats. Anythign less than that is a clear failure.

Look at Ghotbi and how he set the goal of championship with 75 points last season for PP. It is a clear technique being used in every organization called goal setting ( realistic goals, yet challenging). So promotiong to the WC2010 isn't matter of huge overacheivment, it is expected of the TM, despite bad calls by refs, injury, Earth revolving too fast or too slow or any other excuses.

[zzgloo]

Two issues that keep comeing up, between our members and some of our wiser PFDC staffs ( Such as Martin-reza, and maij ,mansoor, etc )...
.................................................. .......................................

1- Is supporting the TM coach conditional ?

2-Are there too many critisisms ,comeing from members with no qualifications of thier own ?

.................................................. .......................................

I personaly believe, our staffs are 80% wrong on the first issue,
and 80% right on the secound !

[Hajagha]

I don't get it. What this all discussion has any thing to do with being "staff"?

It seems that some of our friends here love to be "mokhalef-ol-doleh" no matter what the subject is.

People like Maij or Martin-Reza have a set record of more than a decade here in PFDC. They showed who they are and how they think. I can even guess their view about an issue before they even state it. Unless, some of us who really need to make our mind and state what we really want and don't act like a crying baby who really don't know what we want.

The whole issue is very clear, we got some falling stars (like always and like other nations), some say look at their record, they are stars, some say look at their current performance, they are falling. Who is wrong, who is right? Future will tell. Who is deciding? The coach. So, don't take it to the personal level Please.

Cheers,

[zzgloo]

I don't get it. What this all discussion has any thing to do with being "staff"?
It seems that some of our friends here love to be "mokhalef-ol-doleh" no matter what the subject is.
People like Maij or Martin-Reza have a set record of more than a decade here in PFDC. They showed who they are and how they think. I can even guess their view about an issue before they even state it. Unless, some of us who really need to make our mind and state what we really want and don't act like a crying baby who really don't know what we want.
The whole issue is very clear, we got some falling stars (like always and like other nations), some say look at their record, they are stars, some say look at their current performance, they are falling. Who is wrong, who is right? Future will tell. Who is deciding? The coach. So, don't take it to the personal level Please.
Cheers,

There is no reason to be defensive....or offensive......
And what I said has nothing to do with Daei,or legioners.....
Nor was it meant to be an attack or disrespect.........about the staff.
As,I agreed with them, and you !, that 80% of our members , may be me too !, are """ Mokhalefol doleh """ !!!
It is simply said, it has been very obviouse, ( As there is no evidence against it ),when it comes to coaches...all our staffs, regardless of thier differences, support TM coach, no matter what !
We do remmember the Branko Era, etc....do n't we.........???
Or, now ?.....is any Staff member saying anything against daei ?or did they say against Branko ?
So, that stand , makes one think, that it is no longer individual opinions , but a collective, pre-thought of, possition.

[Ali Chicago]

I don't get it. What this all discussion has any thing to do with being "staff"?
It seems that some of our friends here love to be "mokhalef-ol-doleh" no matter what the subject is.
People like Maij or Martin-Reza have a set record of more than a decade here in PFDC. They showed who they are and how they think. I can even guess their view about an issue before they even state it. Unless, some of us who really need to make our mind and state what we really want and don't act like a crying baby who really don't know what we want.
The whole issue is very clear, we got some falling stars (like always and like other nations), some say look at their record, they are stars, some say look at their current performance, they are falling. Who is wrong, who is right? Future will tell. Who is deciding? The coach. So, don't take it to the personal level Please.
Cheers,

Haji, maybe I misundrestood your post, but I was really disappointed with that "Mokhalefol doleh" comment. The way you put it, as if certian people know the truth and rest need to just get enlightened by listening to the rest. To me no one knows the whole truth and the truth will be partially revealed from the whole "Dialogue".
Not knowing who was the target of that "Mokhalefol doleh" or trying to be "Mokhalefoldooleh" and my posts are in PFDC. More than 3000of them, I disagreed on certain issues (performace of wc 2006 team). And at times tried to be supportive (GN era). Even now despite all my reservations, trying to not act critical. If this is "Mokhalefol Doleh", sorry ot disappoint, but heck, as the American say, "one can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Like I said above, I think dialogue is the whole essence of the PFDC, granted at times, it is not doing in its best form. Assume, if there was no differing opinion or disagreement, what PFDC would have looked liked. X or Y post and rest will follow through and praise the post of the enligheted ones? Remind me of the way so called "Imam Khomenini" was treated in Iran. And before that the so called "khodayghan" if you know who I am talking about.

[Hajagha]

I don't intend to change the topic. I think I was clear enough, however since you asked, here is "the elite members discussion forum" where people are treated based on their posts not their titles. It still bothers me reading "PFDC propagenda".... This is not the first time I am saying, I am the obvious reason that PFDC has multiple opinions in every thing. I, as the oldest member and staff, was against Branko, Daei in 2006 WC, pro QN and pro Daei as the coach. If I don't suit your hypothesis that we have an agenda, then change it as PFDC is not connected to any where and don't operate based on propagenda.

Cheers.

PS, I am not Haji, I am hajagha.

[perspolees]

Two issues that keep comeing up, between our members and some of our wiser PFDC staffs ( Such as Martin-reza, and maij ,mansoor, etc )...
.................................................. .......................................
1- Is supporting the TM coach conditional ?
2-Are there too many critisisms ,comeing from members with no qualifications of thier own ?
.................................................. .......................................
I personaly believe, our staffs are 80% wrong on the first issue,
and 80% right on the secound !

with all due respect your points are totally lost!!
80percent of the staff are wrong about what? You did not give an answer... to then claim what is right and what is wrong.
These issues do not have an answer to begin with why even dig!!?
These are teh matters of opinion.
Football fans with or without qualification are teh ultimate Judge of a coach, so it is an absolute nonesense to say you have to be qualified to form an opinion or criticise or this or that...we would have been in the stone age if the nature of human race was as such.
Remember, the ultimate decision made for a man to lose life or live is not teh judge or teh chain of attorneys that know the law, it is up to what the 12 jurors believe in that box, yes the system no matter what will always have flaws but PROPORTIONALLY speaking this is the way it is and is the fairest...

so in my opinion unconditional love has been studied deep enough and statistically is present in two conditions:
Pure ignorance and idiotic blind fold of support like seen with different religions, etc...
or
as present in imprinting and the love and protection for the offspring

the rest is obvious yani chi unconditional love and support for a coach!!?
or you cant judge if you are not a football analyst or a diploma holder of x and o s!!
as you see Daei is the head coach and we are not gonna judge him just because he doesnt have the diploma..but WE THE PEOPLE and FANS
are the ultimate judges

[Ali Chicago]

I don't intend to change the topic. I think I was clear enough, however since you asked, here is "the elite members discussion forum" where people are treated based on their posts not their titles. It still bothers me reading "PFDC propagenda".... This is not the first time I am saying, I am the obvious reason that PFDC has multiple opinions in every thing. I, as the oldest member and staff, was against Branko, Daei in 2006 WC, pro QN and pro Daei as the coach. If I don't suit your hypothesis that we have an agenda, then change it as PFDC is not connected to any where and don't operate based on propagenda.
Cheers.
PS, I am not Haji, I am hajagha.

Bahram post said 80% if you recall, never he claimed 100% did he?

[zzgloo]

Bahram post said 80% if you recall, never he claimed 100% did he?

Ali Jaan.....as matter of fact, this very issue came about during the Branko era, and I do remember, ( I can dig it out ),hajagha e aziz, said the same thing..which,I was surprized then...which he in fact did not support Branko.......although,hajagha e aziz, may not know, but he is the only one, and he is what we call " A Rebel ",among the staff. , and as you said, I said 80% of staff....Which May be I should have said, 100% except hajagha......
I like , maij,Martin Reza,e aziz, to know, that contrary to what hajagha thinks, I , ( WE ), do love them, and perfectly am aware of thier independent mind, and intelegence................
Yet, when , staffs do have a meetings, and do communicate amongst each other....they come to a joint understandings, and do usualy support each other's positions on threads !!.......and they sort of creat a " JAV ", or atmospher.......which, in all cases, it is a civilized atmospher, and a wise position, contrary to a wild, antagonistic view of most youth in our site....
But, Only, in this particular case....( That is position of supporting the head coach )....In my opinion, they are 80% wrong......but, as in all other cases, thier views are independent, and wise !

[zzgloo]

with all due respect your points are totally lost!!
80percent of the staff are wrong about what? You did not give an answer... to then claim what is right and what is wrong.
These issues do not have an answer to begin with why even dig!!?
These are teh matters of opinion.
Football fans with or without qualification are teh ultimate Judge of a coach, so it is an absolute nonesense to say you have to be qualified to form an opinion or criticise or this or that...we would have been in the stone age if the nature of human race was as such.
Remember, the ultimate decision made for a man to lose life or live is not teh judge or teh chain of attorneys that know the law, it is up to what the 12 jurors believe in that box, yes the system no matter what will always have flaws but PROPORTIONALLY speaking this is the way it is and is the fairest...
so in my opinion unconditional love has been studied deep enough and statistically is present in two conditions:
Pure ignorance and idiotic blind fold of support like seen with different religions, etc...
or
as present in imprinting and the love and protection for the offspring
the rest is obvious yani chi unconditional love and support for a coach!!?
or you cant judge if you are not a football analyst or a diploma holder of x and o s!!
as you see Daei is the head coach and we are not gonna judge him just because he doesnt have the diploma..but WE THE PEOPLE and FANS
are the ultimate judges

No wonder, you believe my points are totaly lost !
my dear perspolees.....you misunderstood.......
The point of my post was, to state, PFDC should not have a policy of " Unconditional support for the head coach of TM "......
and I thought,that was the case...which hajagha disagreed !

[Doctor DOOM]

... as a matter of fact, unconditional support of ANY individual is to be doubted.
be it a player, coach, personnel, manager , .... .
NO individual shd take precedence over the collective, which is TEAM MELLI. whoever that individual may be, or whatever glories that person may have brought for TM and Iran.

I'm the first to defend Daei's track record and what he's achieved for Iran and TM in his legendary footballing career.

But the day he stepped into TM as a coach, he was dissolved into a whole and the whole matters more than the piece. and if the piece becomes some ppl's priority at the cost of the whole, then I will oppose them.
I know some others think this way too.

[yashar_fasihnia]

although,hajagha e aziz, may not know, but he is the only one, and he is what we call " A Rebel ",among the staff. , and as you said, I said 80% of staff....Which May be I should have said, 100% except hajagha......

bahram jan, eshtebah mikonin.
there were other staff members as well. they can name themselves if they want to.

[Martin-Reza]

http://www.persianfootball.com/index...d=966&Itemid=2