Will there be a demise of National teams & rise of Club football at the int'l level?

[Ali Chicago]

There was a tournament in London, Juventus, Hamburg, Arsenal, Real Madrid. Hamburg won the tournament which isn't important. They deomlised Juventus 3-0 (Zidan scored the first goal and Olic (Croation) scored two.

While watching the tournament, Arsenal vs. Real in the second half, in the Arseanl team, not a single English player played. Even after a few subs, they brought in a 16 and 20 year old Wales. But no Brits. On the other end, in real there was Gutti, and maybe two other spaniard.

That give me an idea, are we going to witness the demise of football at the national levels and in order to watch the best, one needs to watch club football? Arsenal played beautiful in the second half (they beat Real 1-0 btw). It seems there are no limits in the forigen number players can play in the game for Brits. Maybe there is and they just allowed Arsenal to play with all non British players, because this was a friendly tournament.

Considering the lacklaster performance of Engalnd at the national level, maybe this (too many forigen based players) is the achillis heal of British national team. It seems in the other leagues (i.e. Germany)limit the number of forigen based players, have better recent records.

Even more importantly, what is the long term impact of this on IPL? Without a salary cap and cost raising (which is mostly abosorbed by the governement), are we going to witness more and more Iranian talents continue to try to play outside Iran (mostly in Persian gulf countries due to better pay) and instaed we bring more and more forigen based players in Iran?

[Ali Chicago]

Can one of the mods kindly add the "at the international level" to the end of my current title. So the title needs to read like "Are we witnessing the demise of national teams and rise of club football at the international level?"

[gol_kuchik]

Absolutely not.

You are making the assumption that success of pro-football will be at the
expense of national teams.

These two are complementary. Close to
800 million watched the finals of the last WC! And European chamionship
league also had record number of viewers.

You tell me which was more exciting to watch, semi finals of
Euopean cup or European champinoship? A team from Turkey was in
both. I dont know about you, but I personally followed the Turkey's national
team competion a lot more closely than the Fenarbache game.

I think what you have witnessed and will see more of, is due to high price/value of star players there will be diminished role for them at
national level. A player worth millions or 10s of millions of dollars will
be hesitant to risk injury for national game that is mostly for pride, and
when most national coaches realize that you will see them react accordingly.

The flip side to that, and that in my opinion is what makes national games
much more exciting is that you have hungry/unknown players who will
put everything on line when they realize the potential to be seen by 1 out
of every 9 person on the planet. This element of surprise has made
national games very interesting to watch. Of course the money
soaked pro-teams offer the caviar, but one can not live on caviar alone

As for IPL, the same is true. At least domestic players will have nothing to
hold back when it comes to making it to national team. Still to be part of
national team, you as a player have no other venue than IPL to show. So
what if great players become our export? This will in turn make others
to try and follow suite. As for foreign based players, I see their impact as
only positive, particularly given the regular flight of our good players for
Euro. It will insure the quality of our domestic league will not go below
certain level. Since we have a large young population, they have to better
than the imported players to make it to teams in IPL and that's a win win.

(Of course this all assume selection of both IPL players as well
as TM players to be merit based only

[Doctor DOOM]

I think we may "see" more emphasis and excitement in club games simply becoz club major games & championships ( like uefa champs league, cup, ACL, ... ) are played throughout the year, year after year ... almost non-stop.

but the major nat'l team championships like WC, euro, AC, ... are conducted once every 4 years ( granted , the qualifiers will get some attention, but nowhere near the actual tournaments ), so the fan interest levels wane & peak accordingly.

Yes, we do see players behaving more careful to avoid injuries or sometimes choosing the club games over some qualifying nat'l games, ... more in recent years than before. But I still ( want to ) believe the nat'l duty is the one big holy grail that all players aim for. that's why we see so much controversy kicked up , and not only in Iran, by players, coaches, media, ... over selection of players for their nat'l team.
thank god for all that controversy to reinforce this belief.

I sincerely hope it stays the same and club owners dont get their way ( as they've been trying to do for some years now, with ridiculous suggestions like an exclusive "SUPER champs league" in europe with a bunch of ultra-famous clubs like barca, re'al, man-ure, juve, milan, bayern, .... only participants !!!!! ridiculous ! thankfully it was shot down by majority in uefa ).

[zzgloo]

Clubs are the ones who creat revenue !.....national teams do not !
Clubs,play some 20 to 30 games a year...and all recieve broadcasting rights,...advertizing,etc.....as national teams have much less exposure !
So, the real investements are on the clubs !specialy in the richer countries with better footballs....
But, when it comes to Countries with lower standards of football....the agenda changes.......and governements get more involved...........

[Ali Chicago]

Thanks to Bahram, Gol Kochic and Payman for their comments. Agha gol kochic, my comment and evaluation was based on the football quality and not the natioanl sentiment or rivalry. No matter what happens, Italy Germany will attract the crowds in both countries and fans from all over the world. But what I am talking about is the football that is played at the pitch.

As an example, we Iranians don't forget the 2-2 draw against Aussies in Melburn in 1998 and excitment was simply unmatched. But from footballing point of view that was one of the weakest football games our national teams ever played. When last week, I watched the tape now that there are less emotions while watching the game, I couldn't beleive how better Aussies were in that game.
Even compare our national team. Our great team of france 1998 in the game against Yougusalive or even Germany in comparison to the second half peroformance against Mexico or the whole game against Portugual. I think game quality of our national team is lowered.

In this most recent UEFA championship, despite the very good result Holland had, they didn't play a great football. I am not trying to undermine their success or anything, but as a mere mortal fan, it wasn't fun to watch the football. The other elements of the national rivalry and all that somehow made up in part for the lower quality of the football.

Compare that level of football with the football Barsa or Arsenal plays at the pitch. It is really an art, a master piece. Please watch the game between the Real vs Arsenal in the Emirat cup I mentioned in my initial post. You see what I am talking about (about the way Arsenal plays).

Besides the artistic crowd pleasing side of things, I won't be surprised more and more marqi players start to sit out teh national teams with execuses like we are injured or if they play they don't go 100%. Recent examples, will be couple of Japanees players asked Japan coach not to call them up for the national team, in order not to loose their spot in their European clubs. A Korean played did the same. So did Hashmeian for the first round of WC qualifications.

Or even more omenously when David Owen got injured in Britian's national team in WC 2006, his club was talking about asking for damages. If that starts to happen, national teams will suffer a huge loss.

I think what we will see in the long run national teams of well known countries won't perform at the high level as they used to and many of the lesser known countries will do much better. To some degree that is already happening. Turkey came thrid in WC 2002. Greece won UEFA 2004, Russia was the dark horse of UEFA 2008 and Spain although a well known footballing country still not among the European Elite at the national level wins UEFA 2008.

Hope I am wrong and still we watch great and exciting football (at the pitch level) not just based on the emtions at the national teams level.

[zzgloo]

Ali jaan....very good point......and I must say, what you are saying ,already exit in " NBA ", as no one realy care about international challenges..and league games are at much higher level than international games...
Thisthis also true with Tennis...as "Davis Cup " which is the only international competition, is at a very low class......
IMO, had there not been such good class of football in South America....the european championship would have been more invested than the WC....,but,with the emergance of Africa, and Mighty South Americans,....there will always be interests as who is the best in the whole world !

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan....very good point......and I must say, what you are saying ,already exit in " NBA ", as no one realy care about international challenges..and league games are at much higher level than international games...
Thisthis also true with Tennis...as "Davis Cup " which is the only international competition, is at a very low class......
IMO, had there not been such good class of football in South America....the european championship would have been more invested than the WC....,but,with the emergance of Africa, and Mighty South Americans,....there will always be interests as who is the best in the whole world !

Very good anlagoy with NBA and Tennis actually. I never thought about it across other sports but you sure have a very valid point.

I beleive in the long run, we will witness even Marqi players from thrid world countries playing in famous clubs teams, start to sit out and not play fully vested in their home country national teams. As money will become more and more important and elements like nationalisem won't be as much stressed. Look at the current Arsenal, in the game I mentioned there wasn't a single British player on the match after 55th minute. Lots of African players, Adabayour, Eboue, .... but even the African teams in the world cup, don't show as much challenge. Baharam Jaan, you are old enough to remember Cameroon took Engald to the verge of elimination in WC 1990 and Green Eagles Nigerians showed so much class.

It seems influence of money will change the dynamic of the football level between the national vs. Club level.

[zzgloo]

It seems influence of money will change the dynamic of the football level between the national vs. Club level.

And that is a good thing ,as far as I am concerned !!, because, people who are looking for money,can not afford to be racist !!

[Ali Chicago]

And that is a good thing ,as far as I am concerned !!, because, people who are looking for money,can not afford to be racist !!

Well, while there is an element of truth into that, but it is not true of all the times. Look at Germany and Italy in the second world war and why you going far, today in Italy and Spain still tons of recisem despite money being the undercurrent of professional football.

[Martin-Reza]

I'm really not able to develop nearly the same passion for club football I have for national team football. I'd prefer seing some medicore national team match over any Premier League match.

For me clubs are just an institution to keep national team players fit . Ok, a bit exaggerated, but I guess I made my point.

[Ali Chicago]

I'm really not able to develop nearly the same passion for club football I have for national team football. I'd prefer seing some medicore national team match over any Premier League match.

For me clubs are just an institution to keep national team players fit . Ok, a bit exaggerated, but I guess I made my point.

I agree with your post, I never claimed club football is ever as exciting as natioanl level football and hope to become. But the way things are going, I think we will see less of national players to play in their home countries and hence weaker national teams (Britaian is a great example), unless leagues put some restricitions (like Bundesliga) on the number of forigen players in the team or max number can play at the same time on the pitch.

[Martin-Reza]

You might be right, but still it will remain more interesting to me (and you?) - and I suppose many others as well.

I think almost every former player is mostly remembered for his national team performances and not for his club performances and I can't imagine this will change any time soon, especially when we're on one hand overloaded with club matches (38 league matches per season in the top leagues and several domestic and international Cups!) while on the other barely being able to watch those matches on Free TV.

With less matches, more free broadcast, the inability to buy success like in club football and more continuity (in club football you basically only cheer for a jersey since it theoretically can happen that a whole squad is changed and you suddenly have to cheer for players formerly playing for your rival) national team football simply has some attributes club football can barely counter...not to talk about matching better to nationalistic feelings of people.

[Ali Chicago]

You might be right, but still it will remain more interesting to me (and you?) - and I suppose many others as well.

I think almost every former player is mostly remembered for his national team performances and not for his club performances and I can't imagine this will change any time soon, especially when we're on one hand overloaded with club matches (38 league matches per season in the top leagues and several domestic and international Cups!) while on the other barely being able to watch those matches on Free TV.

With less matches, more free broadcast, the inability to buy success like in club football and more continuity (in club football you basically only cheer for a jersey since it theoretically can happen that a whole squad is changed and you suddenly have to cheer for players formerly playing for your rival) national team football simply has some attributes club football can barely counter...not to talk about matching better to nationalistic feelings of people.

Agha Martin;

Thanks for bringing up two very good points that I missed "famous club players are usually get identified, during national game matches" and "continuity". I overlooked those points. So maybe a better way, to put it will be to restate my supposition as, Will the national teams wont' be as cohesive and coordinated (as far as players during the game on the pitch I mean), compared to club teams, which isn't' a surprise after all, since clubs have much more time to prepare and play many more games. So maybe each type of game will be attractive for different reasons. National team matches from excitement and nationalism and country rivalry vs. Club football, for more technical/tactical presentation.
As for the continuity although a factor for TM, most good teams, for the most part don't go through major wholesale change of players. Even if they do, still I think in comparison to clubs long preparation and tactical cohesiveness (due to share number of practices they have), I think clubs teams, will be able to perform better (from pure Joga Bonita perspective).

But you are surely right, from excitement and national emotions, club football can't ever match a National team match.

[Doctor DOOM]

apart from the frequency of respective games & tournaments, NATIONAL-pride touches and affects more ppl than CLUB-pride