A very positive change

[BehzadB]

one simple answer for the hunger is the average age of the team and the need to prove themselves and get better contracts hopefully from europe...

Not to mention the pathetic state of the opponent.

[maij]

Ali Agha and Bahram Agha.

The motive of my post was far from trying to label people; I was merely trying to clarify why people get impressions of each other on cyberspace which is not a perfect communication tool by any means.

Unconditional supportJudgmentPublic figures: These people are exposed to the media and naturally are easy prey for criticism. It could be George Bush, David Beckham or Madonna, anything these people do are easily available for the public and can be scrutinized in thousands of ways. Granted that none of them are perfect human beings, but what makes you think that you could do better than them? The fact is , despite his idiocy, Bush must have done something right to reach that level, while I have not been that fortunate.

Positive versus Negative attitude: It is becoming a common belief amongst doctors that a positive attitude by a sick person and his willingness to fight an ailment can go a long way in the healing process along with medicine and therapy. I guess the same applies to many walk of life examples. I side with positive attitude despite my knowledge in shortcomings and systematical faults when it comes to Team Melli and Daei.

Martin-Reza started the thread when he found some positive attitude , and guess what , you did not find that as positive , which is consistent with your thoughts about Team Melli and Daei. It is difficult to change that attitude if you are not willing to look at the other side unless things change to your own liking. Well , things will not always be to our likings simply because (a) we have very little influence on it (b) nobody takes a fans observation seriousely or credibily.


That probably sums up my thoughts on the subject matter.

[BehzadB]

....... Because the web and internet is the way it is , people will get impression of each other ( sometimes wrongly , I might add) by the way they interpret one's writing.

The reader can not see the face of the writer while typing nor his/her expressions , he only see patterns , writing styles , words and sentences.

If the writer consistently tries to fault someone , be mostly negative (giving a few shy or veiled praises now and then) , Hardly credits the guy (unless it is so obvious ) , declare ones disliking of that person , publicly condemns the guy , sides with his opponents , creates side issues for him.....then obviously that writer is labeled as a hater of that person.

Of course , all those impressions can be false , and the intent could be entirely different , but the limitation of the net and this type of communication naturally creates such feelings.

I have learned this by experience and I find people can swiftly misinterpret one's writing. But then again , we are human and to be a human is to err.

I fully agree..

Isn't it interesting that what gives us so much freedom in so many ways actually limits us in such critical way..

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Agha and Bahram Agha.

The motive of my post was far from trying to label people; I was merely trying to clarify why people get impressions of each other on cyberspace which is not a perfect communication tool by any means.

Unconditional supportJudgmentPublic figures: These people are exposed to the media and naturally are easy prey for criticism. It could be George Bush, David Beckham or Madonna, anything these people do are easily available for the public and can be scrutinized in thousands of ways. Granted that none of them are perfect human beings, but what makes you think that you could do better than them? The fact is , despite his idiocy, Bush must have done something right to reach that level, while I have not been that fortunate.

Positive versus Negative attitude: It is becoming a common belief amongst doctors that a positive attitude by a sick person and his willingness to fight an ailment can go a long way in the healing process along with medicine and therapy. I guess the same applies to many walk of life examples. I side with positive attitude despite my knowledge in shortcomings and systematical faults when it comes to Team Melli and Daei.

Martin-Reza started the thread when he found some positive attitude , and guess what , you did not find that as positive , which is consistent with your thoughts about Team Melli and Daei. It is difficult to change that attitude if you are not willing to look at the other side unless things change to your own liking. Well , things will not always be to our likings simply because (a) we have very little influence on it (b) nobody takes a fans observation seriousely or credibily.


That probably sums up my thoughts on the subject matter.

Despite our difference, I am so proud to have a compatriot like you. I agree with a lot of what you said. some of it I reserve to right to qualify it.
Important thing, I am sure no one knows the whole truth and probably each camp of so called Daie Supporters (see I never use a term like worshipers although, there are some who sure act like that) or Daie critics (see I never use haters, although there are people who act like that) has a point.

As for Martin's post, I expressed my opinion, maybe you are right and it is negative, but I need to trust my judgement. Hopefyully, I will be proven wrong (how is this for the a so called egotistic Iranian). I have shortcomings and I personally never been afraid to come and declare in PFDC, I was wrong, when I genuinly beleive I was. I hope Mr. Daie prove me wrong and show me my concerns are irrelavant.

[maij]

Despite our difference, I am so proud to have a compatriot like you. I agree with a lot of what you said. some of it I reserve to right to qualify it.
Important thing, I am sure no one knows the whole truth and probably each camp of so called Daie Supporters (see I never use a term like worshipers although, there are some who sure act like that) or Daie critics (see I never use haters, although there are people who act like that) has a point.

As for Martin's post, I expressed my opinion, maybe you are right and it is negative, but I need to trust my judgement. Hopefyully, I will be proven wrong (how is this for the a so called egotistic Iranian). I have shortcomings and I personally never been afraid to come and declare in PFDC, I was wrong, when I genuinly beleive I was. I hope Mr. Daie prove me wrong and show me my concerns are irrelavant.

Thank you Agha Ali , you make me blush now

When it comes to judgment , everyone uses his intelligence and observation to form such judgment , but like I said , with events that are remote to us , we simply do no have credible data to authenticate. It is quite different when you are running your own business and you have the balance sheet and the daily activity of the business plus the performance of your employees.

That is why I think it is harsh to be over critical of the performance of national TM coaches be it Daei or Ghalenoei. These people are the future of Iran where there has been limited talent in the field of coaching. We need people like them and Bagheri , I hope , in coaching. Of course they commit mistakes , of course they will say something that we consider silly or illogical , they are not supposed to be perfect.

I honestly don't like the attitude of Iranian fans. They are nowhere near what they claim that are the best in the world. You want to see passion and real support , go to stadiums in Turkey , Germany and England to see what real support means. I say this because I have witnessed these fans in real. After England were eliminated from the European Championship , and the whole country went into mourning , there was a so called "meaningless " friendly match and that match was full capacity!!

I say we need to be more positive and less critical and give these coaches and players the benefit of the doubt. Claiming that the team will fail or succeed in a mission (like qualifying for the World Cup) is a 50-50 chance, so the doubters or supporters are on equal chance of being right. But what does that prove at the end?

The bigger picture is the support for Team Melli. And it is because of Team Melli that people like Daei are in the picture not vice versa. Daei will be gone one day , Team Melli will remain. Let us give the man some support and credit, he is not doing half as bad as people think. For the record , I was as shocked as many when he was appointed, despite my support of him as a choice when it came to vatani coaches versus Ajnabi.

[zzgloo]

Ali Agha and Bahram Agha.

The motive of my post was far from trying to label people; I was merely trying to clarify why people get impressions of each other on cyberspace which is not a perfect communication tool by any means.

Unconditional support: This is a personal choice and issue. Some people will have unconditional support of Daei , some don’t. The latter person is not more intelligent than the former and the former is not more patriotic. It is a simple personal choice.

Judgment: Iranians in my opinion are quite egoistic, partisan and proud people. Your average Taxi Driver in Tehran will discuss anything from Nuclear energy, to World politics to the lineup of Brazil team in the World Cup and finds fault in everyone and everything (except himself when he passes through the red traffic light!). While I admire the keen interest of such people and their standard of knowledge in current affairs shown by a Taxi Driver for example , the faults is clearly evident when judgments are based on hearsay , personal opinions mixed with emotion , content for the other side and lack of in depth knowledge of the profession.

Take the cancelling of Uzbek game for instances. Isn’t it the duty of the coach, and no one but the coach, to decide when his team requires practice matches or not ? Isn’t he the one that lives with them, knows their physical condition, psychological status and level of preparedness? Do you as an outsider; have those data readily available to you to form a positive decision?

Public figures: These people are exposed to the media and naturally are easy prey for criticism. It could be George Bush, David Beckham or Madonna, anything these people do are easily available for the public and can be scrutinized in thousands of ways. Granted that none of them are perfect human beings, but what makes you think that you could do better than them? The fact is , despite his idiocy, Bush must have done something right to reach that level, while I have not been that fortunate.

Positive versus Negative attitude: It is becoming a common belief amongst doctors that a positive attitude by a sick person and his willingness to fight an ailment can go a long way in the healing process along with medicine and therapy. I guess the same applies to many walk of life examples. I side with positive attitude despite my knowledge in shortcomings and systematical faults when it comes to Team Melli and Daei.

Martin-Reza started the thread when he found some positive attitude , and guess what , you did not find that as positive , which is consistent with your thoughts about Team Melli and Daei. It is difficult to change that attitude if you are not willing to look at the other side unless things change to your own liking. Well , things will not always be to our likings simply because (a) we have very little influence on it (b) nobody takes a fans observation seriousely or credibily.


That probably sums up my thoughts on the subject matter.

Majid e aziz...............
We have often talked about this issue.......and I totaly agree with that " Taxi Driver " terminology.......
And I must admit, even after liveing 32 years in western world, it has not changed me much, and although,I feel I am a little better than the Taxi Driver...and More educated,......but, that discription is valid about me too !
But, frankly in my opinion, it is also valid about you !!!, no matter how much you remind yourself against it !
As , you in a way, useing this very issue ,consistantly against members, critisizing them ,is in a way, the same thing too !!
Simply noticeing such ill, does not negate it !.......and we should not gongradulate ourselves for noticeing it either.................as we probabaly would not have understood its extend,had we not been liveing in foreign lands !
It has become very customery, in gatherings among Iranians, in foreign countries , to critisize our own culture...as it is very much "" IN "" ! and a sign of intelectuality ,these days !, and much of it, although true, ...not enough to change realities...nor, would it help us,find what to replace our culture with !
We Iranians of out side, will always have problem of Identity, specialy if we keep,scrutenizing our own culture ......
All cultures, have " Blind spots ", and all have weak points !....they also have strong points !
What you said, in your above post, although correct, yet,it was not surprizing, as you, with all your posts, indirectly have been saying that to all of us for long !...it has been obviouse !
Dr.Shafi kadkani, who was just laid off from Universtity of Tehran...has a nice statement, opening his books with !
He says : " EFRAAT DAR FOROOTANI , DALILEH EDDEAAST " !!.
We are Iranians......and it is a good Idea to improve ourseleves.....but,not with the expense of, seperating ourseleves from our identity !

PS,I Love You !,and glad ,like Ali jaan, to have such memebrs like you to learn from ,and enjoy exchangeing ideas with.( I am just not saying that,as I notice quality when I see one )
and, we need to remind ourseleves,that this is a football forum..where haveing opinion and critisizing , is all welcome and internationaly a " NORM " among all football fans!

[maij]

Majid e aziz...............
We have often talked about this issue.......and I totaly agree with that " Taxi Driver " terminology.......
And I must admit, even after liveing 32 years in western world, it has not changed me much, and although,I feel I am a little better than the Taxi Driver...and More educated,......but, that discription is valid about me too !
But, frankly in my opinion, it is also valid about you !!!, no matter how much you remind yourself against it !
As , you in a way, useing this very issue ,consistantly against members, critisizing them ,is in a way, the same thing too !!
Simply noticeing such ill, does not negate it !.......and we should not gongradulate ourselves for noticeing it either.................as we probabaly would not have understood its extend,had we not been liveing in foreign lands !
It has become very customery, in gatherings among Iranians, in foreign countries , to critisize our own culture...as it is very much "" IN "" ! and a sign of intelectuality ,these days !, and much of it, although true, ...not enough to change realities...nor, would it help us,find what to replace our culture with !
We Iranians of out side, will always have problem of Identity, specialy if we keep,scrutenizing our own culture ......
All cultures, have " Blind spots ", and all have weak points !....they also have strong points !
What you said, in your above post, although correct, yet,it was not surprizing, as you, with all your posts, indirectly have been saying that to all of us for long !...it has been obviouse !
Dr.Shafi kadkani, who was just laid off from Universtity of Tehran...has a nice statement, opening his books with !
He says : " EFRAAT DAR FOROOTANI , DALILEH EDDEAAST " !!.
We are Iranians......and it is a good Idea to improve ourseleves.....but,not with the expense of, seperating ourseleves from our identity !

PS,I Love You !,and glad ,like Ali jaan, to have such memebrs like you to learn from ,and enjoy exchangeing ideas with.( I am just not saying that,as I notice quality when I see one )
and, we need to remind ourseleves,that this is a football forum..where haveing opinion and critisizing , is all welcome and internationaly a " NORM " among all football fans!

Bahram Jan... Thank you for the post and your feeling is truly appreciated.

Let me remind you that I , Majeed , is the least perfect. The day I claim that I am perfect , or I don't want to learn because I know it all , is the day that I should be going 6 feet under the ground ( Some Chinese proverb , I think).

But you mentioned a very good point about expatriate Iranian criticizing the culture. I think this is positive trend, because we must be aware of our shortcomings . We should not do things simply because it is the Iranian way of doing thing despite it being wrong.


There is a lot that we can learn from the other cultures and perhaps a lot that we can offer other cultures. I said this many times, there is no perfect culture , some perhaps are better than others and that is why their countries and societies have developed , but there is no perfect culture.

[maij]

As soon as we claim that there is a positive attitude with the offensive mind in team melli , we saw how Iran retreated and sitting on a one goal lead that eventually lead to the equalizer !!!

I was quite disappointed with that , but after doing some questioning , it is apparently because the players were taking it easy due to threat of injury by the tough tackling Jordanian team.

[Ali Chicago]

Bahram Jan... Thank you for the post and your feeling is truly appreciated.

Let me remind you that I , Majeed , is the least perfect. The day I claim that I am perfect , or I don't want to learn because I know it all , is the day that I should be going 6 feet under the ground ( Some Chinese proverb , I think).

But you mentioned a very good point about expatriate Iranian criticizing the culture. I think this is positive trend, because we must be aware of our shortcomings . We should not do things simply because it is the Iranian way of doing thing despite it being wrong.


There is a lot that we can learn from the other cultures and perhaps a lot that we can offer other cultures. I said this many times, there is no perfect culture , some perhaps are better than others and that is why their countries and societies have developed , but there is no perfect culture.

Great post and it is not typical Iranian Taaroof or apple shinning as American say. Glad to see, that we have a lot in common agha Majid. See, we aren't as negative!!!! as you might think after all

[Ali Chicago]

As soon as we claim that there is a positive attitude with the offensive mind in team melli , we saw how Iran retreated and sitting on a one goal lead that eventually lead to the equalizer !!!

I was quite disappointed with that , but after doing some questioning , it is apparently because the players were taking it easy due to threat of injury by the tough tackling Jordanian team.

I am glad to see you are honest enough to mention the TM backing off and sitting on the one goal lead. I read the comments by people who watched the game (I didn't see it myself) and they said the same thing. So I wanted to mention it, but kind of self censored myself!! As it is, I am already have a bad rep for being "too negative"!!!!

[zzgloo]

Bahram Jan... Thank you for the post and your feeling is truly appreciated.

Let me remind you that I , Majeed , is the least perfect. The day I claim that I am perfect , or I don't want to learn because I know it all , is the day that I should be going 6 feet under the ground ( Some Chinese proverb , I think).

But you mentioned a very good point about expatriate Iranian criticizing the culture. I think this is positive trend, because we must be aware of our shortcomings . We should not do things simply because it is the Iranian way of doing thing despite it being wrong.


There is a lot that we can learn from the other cultures and perhaps a lot that we can offer other cultures. I said this many times, there is no perfect culture , some perhaps are better than others and that is why their countries and societies have developed , but there is no perfect culture.

Majid jaan.....thanks ,and I appriciate your humility........
I do not believe, critisizing such shortcomeings ,is possitive.....( Just my feelings ,specialy when one lives within iran.)
It is something deep in the culture.....and it has roots in our 4000 years of history, and may be the main reason, our culture has had ,unusualy large number of " poets" !!!!!
And ,on the other hand, not any body is qualified to critisize !!,...
There has been, issues of Gharb zadegi, and elianation, as well as under stimateing the possitives of what this particular culture may bring......
And, then there is issue of " Identity " which I talked about it earlier !
It may be best,while trying not to subscribe to negativities,and let it be avoided by the intelegencia, but we should accept our culture in general,as part of what makes us " US " !...other wise..we can not realy have a feeling of belongings to any culture ! and that is called " lost identity ".

[zzgloo]

TM is waisting too much time, to find ultimately a " Better bench "......which although, it must be done...but, it is enough for now !...TM has very little time, to mesh, practice on details...and Personel must have been set by now !, and starting to implement plans !...............We need cohesiveness more than ,better bench,for this remaining short time !

[shayan20]

against Jordon, it was clear that TM sat back, this was so obvious in the second half. Although, It was also the pressure of the Jordon team that pushed forward, but I was disappointed to see us sitting back after a 1 goal lead. Overall, a good preparation match for us for the game against the Saudis. Jordon was a good opposition and quite frankly tested our TM.

[Doctor DOOM]

As soon as we claim that there is a positive attitude with the offensive mind in team melli , we saw how Iran retreated and sitting on a one goal lead that eventually lead to the equalizer !!!

I was quite disappointed with that , but after doing some questioning , it is apparently because the players were taking it easy due to threat of injury by the tough tackling Jordanian team.

maybe it is as some of us said: come the more crucial and important setting, we'd see less daring and positive attitude in the tactics ! which is what the UAE game represented and what the kuwait game lacked ( hence the room & freedom to be more daring ).
a freedom, which what the next 8 games will not allow us to have also.


the measure for the team's prowess and tactics and nature shd not be the insignificant and less important games it plays, but those games where it has something at stakes. and that's where the team comes up short.

well, the extreme light weigth staff bench at TM also is another "ghooz-e bala ghooz" and doesnt help matter one bit ! where is this german ( or foreign ) advisor ? they shd try to get him. or at least show some urgency. I'm afraid daei doesnt look like wanting to move even a bit on this matter. and that will have an adverse impact on TM's fortunes when we meet coaches and benches 10 times more proficient and experienced than our feather-weight one !

[shayan20]

again we saw Iranian teams do this. This time Sepahan in the second half against Esteghlal.

I'm beginning to believe this is in Iranians blood just like Samba is in Brazilians blood.