Low Attendence for TM games, why?

[gol_kuchik]

As far as low attendence, surprising no one mentions this
but how about letting WOMEN IN STADIUSMs?

that will for sure increase TM attendence. Based on what I observed even in Syria, were
most of TM female supporters wore Islamic covers and supposedly hard core religious
pilgrims, that tells me that many women would love to come and cheer their TM.

This is a base that TM has, which I don't think even EsEs or PP have. For instance,
many women I know in the family or among friends, dont really care about IPL, but they
really like to cheer TM on.

[Libertine]

It has been like this for some time now, for both TM and IPL games. People in Iran are very apathetic over the last few years (ok, maybe the last 5 or 6) as to attending football matches. This is mainly down to (in my experience):

1 - The poor standard of football

2 - Lack of of facilities, transportation and safety issues

3- The bad Kick-off times and constant re-arrangement of fixutes

We saw last season in the IPL, with the apperance of Ghotbi and his style of play at Persepolis that fans turned up in the tens of thousands. When the football is good, people will come and watch. Persepolis played their part in some really good, exciting football last season (We saw many games with big scorelines eg., 3-3, 3-2 ).

With TM, unless its the big games (eg., WC Qualifiers, or big name friendly games such as the Germany fixture) people tend not to watch. I put this down to people's apathy towards the farce that at time surrounds our national team. In my opinion, I think not qualifying for the 2002 World Cup, and our failures a the 2006 WCQ have realy damaged the psyche of the average Iranian soccer fan.

We need a boost, a cause, a victory that will again re-ignite our interest in our nations football.

[Libertine]

We have to remember Football is 'entertainment', Nigeria too is facing the same problem.

Read this arcticle, the points raised here are very valid, and relevant to our situation

Source :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4637017.stm

Is the premiership killing African football?

On Friday 8 July, Africa Live is in Manchester and Lagos, with BBC GMR and Raypower FM, Nigeria, the final destination of our week-long series of community conversations.

And we're talking a truly global language: football.

Everywhere you go in the world, you're bound to see youngsters kicking around a football, even if, like in rural Africa, that ball is made up of old plastic bags tightly bundled together.

And more often than not, it is the teams in the English Premiership that people support, not their local teams.

So, join us in a pub in Manchester with English football supporters and in Lagos, a Nigerian city where many football fans prefer to watch the Premiership over local games.

Africa Live asks:

Does the Premiership kill off African football? Has the influx of foreign players, including Africans, into the English game stifled the development of young British talent?

Here are some views on the subject from Africa and Britain.

Muhammad Salisu Musa from Kaduna

The Premier League is killing football in Nigeria.

When there is premiership soccer on TV, virtually all soccer lovers in Nigeria abandon everything else, including watching the local league.

During weekends when the local professional league is playing, you will find the stadiums empty; everybody is watching European soccer on TV.

However I do not blame Nigerian football and I do not blame the premiership.

The style is not the same, the standard is not the same.

What you find in Europe is superior.

I blame our local organisational skills, which are selfish and counter productive.

As a consequence the standard of football is low, not because of lack of good materials but because the players are hungry and have a myriad of personal problems.

And a man that is hungry and underfed cannot perform.

Chris Horricks from Sale

I am a steward at Manchester City on match day and I work on the turnstiles at Manchester United when they are at home.

I support Brentford. You ask me why? Someone has to! The premiership and African football is a boom or bust issue. Since its inauguration in 1993/94 season, the all powerful FA Premier League has undoubtedly altered the fabric of the game.

The regularity of African nations qualifying for the World Cup, has tripled

For every Nii Lampety, the disastrous Ex-Aston Villa and Coventry City Ghanaian striker, there is a Jay Jay Okocha, Bolton's inspirational Nigerian Striker.

I think since the growth in African players to all the major European Leagues, not just our own Premiership, the regularity of African nations qualifying for the World Cup, has tripled.

Cameroon are no longer the only representatives. Nigeria, Tunisia and recently Senegal all graced the 2002 competition.

This is a far cry from the days when Illunga Mwepu, the Zaire defender, gained notoriety for running out of the wall in a World Cup match against Brazil and proceeded to kick the ball away.

Shehu Ado from Nigeria

In Nigerian soccer the problem is favouritism; the best are not given a chance.

I'm afraid that Nigeria will not attain its destined class in football because we rely on some players and when they're not available our national morale goes down.

This is bad for the country. I am also afraid that what happened to Ghana may come down here.

Ghana depended so much on an old stock of players who were not groomed.

By the time the best became a spent force, football went down the drain.

I am afraid this is where we are going.

Use the form above to send us your comments - some of which will be published below.

If you would like to take part in the discussion, e-mail us with your telephone number, which will not be published.

If you would like to text us your comments send them to +447786202008.

This debate is now closed. Thank you for your comments.

Your comments:

Football is football, irrespective of where it is played
Stanley Duru, Nigeria/USA
The premiership has proven to be very important in developing African football. Players have been exposed to competitive play and have become professionals. Had it not been for Premiership exposure, countries like Zimbabwe would not have appeared in the African Cup Of Nations in Tunisia.
Patrick Kuda, Zimbabwe

Football is football, irrespective of where it is played. The premiership has been around for a while, but has never affected support for African football, especially Nigerian football. The issue here is not the premiership but the organisation and management of football in Africa as a whole. In the eighties, stadiums in Nigeria were full to the brim during league games, because the league was well organised and teams were well managed. However, when the standard of football declined people lost interest. I am a fan of Bolton because of the transformation the club has witnessed under Sam Allardyce and it doesn't hurt that Jay- Jay Okocha plays for them as well. If football clubs have coaches as inspirational as Sam and an organised league, you will see fans returning in droves to the stadiums to watch league games.
Stanley Duru, Nigeria/USA

The English Premier League is definitely one of the best leagues in Europe. I think it's a great achievement for African footballers to be competing in one of the best leagues in the world. It motivates the players and also gives them more experience and confidence in major competitions such as the World Cup. If you stay local you'll remain local with no achievement.
Yinka A, London, UK

The people killing African Football are the administrators and the government
Victor Nwabue, Houston, Texas
Just imagine the number of African players who have to change their nationality to be able to play in the premiership. What is more annoying is the fact that Premier League sides are always the last to release African players who wish to play for their country.
Eben Cobbah, Ghana

Footballers in Africa are inspired by the quality of the premiership and this if anything has improved the quality of football in Africa. Why do we always blame others for our own failures? Wake up Africa.
Ptrckmwale, Malawi

The people killing African Football are the administrators and the government. Football like every other business should not be funded and controlled by the government. Private investors should be encouraged to make the necessary investments in the game and make it more commercially viable to run football clubs and attract fresh talent. After all the South African Premiership is just as hot as the English.
Victor Nwabue, Houston, Texas

The premiership has given tremendous support to African football. Before now, our footballers were relatively unknown, but since Dutch coach, Clemens Westerhof, helped export our players to Europe, the strenghth and skill of our players has been brought to the fore. This is due to the facilities European clubs offer which we lack in our own stadiums. Europe offers our players the platform to display their talent across the globe. This wouldn't have been possible had they remained at home. Ask Jay-Jay Okocha, Kanu and Ayegbeni Yakubu where they were before now? But my problem is that these people soon become too big to honour national calls when they are needed most.This is a bad trend. Our players in Europe should learn to be more patriotic. Kponu, Dieovietoo Fabian, Nigeria

Saying the premiership is killing African football is an understatement
Eboh Iyke, Nigeria
Here in Lusaka, the live premiership games on TV attract more supporters than the ones who go to watch the KCM League (the local league under Konkola Copper Miner sponsorship). To add insult to injury, ZNBC, the local TV chain is unable to carry live football on radio or TV. Any game from our local league lacks spark and there are no stars to watch. It is boring and that is why most supporters switch to the premiership.
Jean Mandela, Zambia

Saying the premiership is killing African football is an understatement. I blame the football authorities for this whole thing. Honestly they don't know how to run football especially in Nigeria. That is why you don't see fans watching the local league when big European clubs are playing. Enyimba of Aba is the only Nigerian club that commands loyalty from their fans because the governor of the state runs the club professionally. If the Nigerian football authoriy could do the same, I think the issue of the premiership killing African football would disappear.
Eboh Iyke, Nigeria

The premiership is not in any way killing African football. Instead it is helping to fine tune some of the African footballers who are lucky enough to be in the premiership especially the likes of Quinton Fortune, Didier Drogba, Aliou Cisse and and Jay-Jay Okocha. What is killing our football is the governments who don't want to invest in the game. There is a need to strengthen both the home leagues and the club championship. What the premiership and the other European leagues can do is to allocate part of their huge profits towards the development of African football. By this I mean the provision of better stadiums, more football academies and professional coaches.
Alpha Jallow, The Gambia

No wonder we are not making it any further than the semi-finals in the World Cup
Kojo Addison, Ghana
The problem with African football is not the premiership. The problem is poverty. With wealth comes good sponsorship. I have not seen a single football club in Africa that is sponsored by a good corporate organisation. I believe that with good sponsorship, national and continental clubs in Africa will improve.
Onwuka Paul Okafor, Nigeria

It is quite unfortunate that we have let the premiership into our football fabric. Then again, we can not do away with it. We have a lot of players performing in those leagues and it is our national responsibility to ensure they play football for those teams and ultimately for their country. Our support should go to players abroad but at the same time we should be supporting our local teams. A compromise needs to be reached but how? Locals need to be paid and we need to keep an eye on foreign players. No wonder we are not making it any further than the semi-finals in the World Cup.
Kojo Addison, Ghana

I am a Liberian living in the US and football is my major sport. In the US football is not too popular because there are a lot of other sports that we watch. But football is universal and when we get the chance to watch it and see our African brothers playing in the premiership, we feel very proud. The premiership is not killing African footballers, they love it. Africans are proud and happy to be playing in the premiership with some of the world's finest.
Dave Jackley, United States

The Premiership is both a blessing and a curse
Thierno Jimmy, Thailand
The Premier League does not kill African football, it promotes it. It is well organised in all areas such as administration, salaries to players and the way they handle their daily duties. This is unlikely in the African league because there is poor administration and most teams are swindled out of their earnings. A small minority in Tanzania are interested in watching their own teams but the majority would rather watch the premiership instead.
Ombeni, Tanzania

The premiership is both a blessing and a curse. African national teams now rely on their professional players abroad. Their skills were acquired in Africa, but the management is better in Europe. So, why watch a game in Africa when a better one is being shown on TV from Europe?
Thierno Jimmy, Thailand

How can the premiership kill African football? Africans are the ones who have killed off their game by being unprofessional and failing to prepare properly. We do well at junior world championships and fail at the world cup. Leave the premiership alone!
Simba Manhuwa, United Kingdom

People like the English premiership because of the high standard of its football, and people don't beat referees after matches.
Gowon Danladi, Nigeria

When our local professional league is on, you will find the stadiums empty
Anon, Nigeria
During weekends when our local professional league is on, you will find the stadiums empty and not only that everybody will be busy watching European soccer on TV. I don't blame Nigerian football and I don't blame the premiership. The style and standards are not the same.
Anon, Nigeria

I think the Premiership is good for African football as it has shown our so-called administrators that they don't know how to organise football. You cannot find any fan watching Nigerian local league when Man-U, Arsenal or Chelsea are playing. The football authorities in Africa should do more to encourage players to play abroad so they can gain more exposure and experience.
Eboh Kingsley, Nigeria

The premiership has nothing to do with our local football. I am a supporter of some of the local sides here in Nigeria, like Enyimba FC and 3SC. What we need is total support and commitment to promote African football.
Adebayo Olusegun, Nigeria

The English Premiership is the best in the world. The skills, the pace and the quality are wonderful. It would be naive to say that it kills African football. Instead we should try to emulate it. We can make it, but we haven't made up our minds.
Chukwuma Ozowalu, Nigeria

The premiership is enjoyed everywhere and can't be killing african football. African players have been doing very well, so how can the game be killing the continent's football? The huge money involved in the premiership is something no club in Africa can pay. Look at the "price" of Drogba of Chelsea and Diouf who plays for Bolton.
Edwin Umeh, Nigeria

A lot of football stars are born in Africa but only a few get exposed
Atiabet Marcel, Cameroon/USA
Our African football authorities should add some spice to our own home football and then try to reduce costs and encourage private broadcasting stations to televise the matches. Only when this is done would fans start believing in African football and give it an applause. A lot of football stars are born in Africa but only a few get exposed; and they might not even be the best from the continent.
Atiabet Marcel, Cameroonian in the U.S.A

In my opinion, the premiership is developing Africa football rather than killing it. Did Okocha from Nigeria not improve since joining Bolton? He suddenly turned into a free kick specialist. A similar thing can be said for other African nationals in the premiership.
Kolawole Sodeke, Nigeria

No, the premiership is not killing African players but the players are their own enemies, as they often feel too big to wear the colours of their native countries.
Olusegun Ikuesan, Nigeria

I would pay to watch any Nigerian or African local league match on TV
Okeshukwu Egbuziem, California
I think the premiership is actually helping African football to measure up to a higher league. But, African administrators need to improve the quality of the game. Although I am based in the USA, I would pay to watch any Nigerian or African local league match on TV. You can find some of the great soccer players in Africa today.
Okechukwu Egbuziem, Fresno, California

Football administrators in Nigeria only want to make money by selling players. Things have improved somewhat and our local league is now transmitted live on Radio and TV.
Oluwajinmi Ayomide, Lagos, Nigeria

Premiership football is all about big money pay. This is an incentive which makes every youngster yearn to be a superstar like the other Africans we see.
Joshua Erambo, Kenya

The English premiership is far more advanced than the Nigerian League, and beside fans are not encouraged to go and watch local matches because of frequent outbreaks of violence coupled with the constant expectation that the home team must win.
Solomon Magbagbeola, Boston/USA

A sick man does not jump high
Yao Klousseh, Canada
Is the Premiership killing African football? This question is a bit naive. Seldom does sports thrive in an environment characterised by chronic poverty, malnutrition, ill-health, and unending political and social problems. A sick man does not jump high. I may suggest you ask why is African football not on par with European leagues. A much more relevant discussion topic.
Yao Klousseh, Canada

The reason Nigerians follow Premiership is simple: our Nigerian stars like Kanu, Jay-Jay and Babayaro are playing!
Aregbesola Adekusibe Desmond, Lagos, Nigeria

Why should I pay to watch a football match of elementary school standard in Africa when I can sit in the comfort of my living room and watch the best of football in the Premiership?
Jason Osiegbu, Lagos, Nigeria

Football administration in the English premiership is efficient and that is what has enhanced the quality of play. That is not the case in Nigeria and the rest of Africa.
Festus Anyanwu, Nigeria

The Premiership is not comparable to African football because it is the best in the world.
Ussysafs, Nigeria

I think the premiership is helping to nurture African talent. Peter Ndhlovu, who used to play for Coventry matured very quickly. Every player from Africa wants to be a player in the Premiership. As I write, our national goalkeeper, Energy Murambadoro, is having trials with Leeds and to have him play in England will make my country proud.
Augustine, Zimbabwe

The influx of African players into the premiership is helping the game in England, but killing it in Africa
Kizito Chibuike, Nigeria
The influx of African players into the premiership is helping the game in England, but killing it in Africa.
Kizito Chibuike, Nigeria

Footballers in Africa who watch the Premiership on TV are inspired by the quality of the infrastructure and the fantastic displays of skill.
Adeyinka Mustapha, Nigeria

The Premiership has nothing to do with our local football. Our own leaders are the ones who don't take our game seriously.
Adebayo Olusegun, Nigeria

The Premiership in my view is not killing Nigerian football. Our league will only improve when it is managed properly like a business.
Eze Collins, Nigeria

[shayan20]

As far as low attendence, surprising no one mentions this
but how about letting WOMEN IN STADIUSMs?

that will for sure increase TM attendence. Based on what I observed even in Syria, were
most of TM female supporters wore Islamic covers and supposedly hard core religious
pilgrims, that tells me that many women would love to come and cheer their TM.

This is a base that TM has, which I don't think even EsEs or PP have. For instance,
many women I know in the family or among friends, dont really care about IPL, but they
really like to cheer TM on.

We haven't talked about Women in the stadiums because the issue is why the fans (THE SAME FANS) that came to the TM matches before, don't come now.

Allowing women to stadium wil surely boost the attendance but that's a different issue IMO.

We want to know what happened to the fans that don't turn up for the games ANYMORE.

Majid jan proposed a valid arguement saying that the main reason id due to the fact that there are not many PP or SS players in the TM squad (More of Saipa-Sepahan squad). This is totally the coach'es decision and the fans can't influence Daei's selection.
I agree with this. It's a major factor for the fans of PP and SS not coming to watch the TM games.

It's indeed very sad to see the fans chanting "Esteghlal sarvare va PP sarvare" during Tm matches.

[zzgloo]

With all the respect Bahram Jaan, I think we (Iranians) in general are too hard on ourselves and big self criticis of ourselves.
I give average people (in this case average fans) much more credit. I think in general TM has underacheived as far as fans are concerned (I am not saying they are right).
When I was in San Jose, I met Asghar Agha Sharfi , past years forward of PASS and TM coach under Mohajerani. He was coaching the San Jose Aria I think to get them prepared for the Jaame Doosti in LA.
I talked to him after the practice and he said something that left a huge impact on me. He said, Iranian fans are way ahead of our football. I asked Asghar Agha, there are the same fans that swear and insult the refs. He said, well all over the world, football fans aren't among the most educated rich section of the society (comapred to other sports like Golf, Tennis etc,). So, that kind of behavior comes from that. But football wise, he beleived fans know and apprecite good football. He asked me why people loved PP in the first place? I said because of Shahin and Dr. Ekrami and Antio Khosravani sentiment. He said, ok partly true, but why didn't they support Paykan, Ooghab (which was somehow related to Marhoom Hoosein Agha Fekri)? I had no answer? He said, because PP played the most exciting games those days. PP was known for attack minded player in Iran (at least those days).
So in summary, I think fans might not be able to articulate themselves, but they subliminaly appreciate good football and respond to it (coming to stadium). Of course this is a more complex phonomenon and other elements like competition between two clubs, nationalistic emotions and other elements are in play as well.

Good points Ali jaan, both what Asghar Sharafi said, and Iranians in general.....,.........although, we may have a culture of , 'Know it all '......but, we are mostly , articulate, informed with high degree of " Malloomate Omoomi " !!
we may not be as good as what we think we are...but, we are better than Avarage fan in the world.Both as far as enthusiasm, and football knowledge.......,and as you said..we may be also critisizeing ourseleves more than others as well !

[gol_kuchik]

Agha Shayan, this thread poses a question, and we can phsycoanalyze why
fans show up in some games and not others, but that's all speculation. Instead I chose to offer a solution, to increase TM fan participation.
Coincidentally, I think for a TM games, many women will go to stadiums
if they were not banned, however I doubt if most women will got to EsEs
or PP games even if allowed.

As far as why fans show up for PP and EsEs and not TM, who knows?

Is it due to their high level of of play? You gotta be kidding.
Is it due to fans love for the players? Well these clubs really dont have
franchise players unlike in the 1970s. So you can't be serious if you
suggest they go to a game to see Niki or Akbar Pour, when they switch
clubs in an instance.

A club like Sepahan or Malavan, can claim support for local players which fans know, but thats not true for EsEs or PP.

To be frank, I really don't know why fans go to their games but they do.
May be to see a big crowd and let out some steam. After most of these
games, if the team does not play to fans expectation, they break windows
and chairs, but I doubt they feel that passionate about TMs loss, nor is
there an opposing side to yell at.

When a game of TM is important though who can say any PP or EsEs game
generated even half as much excitement as our WC 2006 qualification against
Qatar? Or the Australia? Wait and see......

[shayan20]

^^It's a great solution but not practical under current regime. I've always been saying this to let women in the stadiums at least for TM matches since the higher members claim that women shoudln't come to stadiums as they will hear bad language from our fans. But to me that's only in PP , SS and Club teams matches and not in TM. For example in a match against Germany or any othr country in Azadi, why would any fan swear?There is only iranians in the stadium and they all cheer for TM unlike a derby game.

i certainly hope women can come to Tm matches. There will be a lot more attendance.

[the-ali]

It has nothing to do with Daei. Team Melli fans support team melli no matter who is coaching. Looking at this issue and making it a Daei issue is like looking at this issue with blinders on.

The problem is a blend of:

-Poor Stadium
-Bad Match-Time
-Poor access to Azadi (Traffic, transit etc.)
-Team Melli in a "test stage" (young players being tested)
-absence of fan favourites like Mahdavikia, Karimi, Hashemian, Kazemian, Madanchi, and more

[Ali Chicago]

As far as low attendence, surprising no one mentions this
but how about letting WOMEN IN STADIUSMs?

that will for sure increase TM attendence. Based on what I observed even in Syria, were
most of TM female supporters wore Islamic covers and supposedly hard core religious
pilgrims, that tells me that many women would love to come and cheer their TM.

This is a base that TM has, which I don't think even EsEs or PP have. For instance,
many women I know in the family or among friends, dont really care about IPL, but they
really like to cheer TM on.

Very good point. Like your sharp observations Agha Gol Kochick. While your observation is right on the money about women care about TM but not PP or SS or IPL for that matter, as far as I know, never ever in IRI they allowed women into the stadium, so the drop in attendence in IRI at least can't be attributed to women factor.

Having said that, I would like to thank you to highligth one of the serious shortcomings in our football (that is shamefull in 21st century to be honest, such a direct discrimination agaisnt women).

[Ali Chicago]

It has been like this for some time now, for both TM and IPL games. People in Iran are very apathetic over the last few years (ok, maybe the last 5 or 6) as to attending football matches. This is mainly down to (in my experience):
1 - The poor standard of football
2 - Lack of of facilities, transportation and safety issues
3- The bad Kick-off times and constant re-arrangement of fixutes
We saw last season in the IPL, with the apperance of Ghotbi and his style of play at Persepolis that fans turned up in the tens of thousands. When the football is good, people will come and watch. Persepolis played their part in some really good, exciting football last season (We saw many games with big scorelines eg., 3-3, 3-2 ).
With TM, unless its the big games (eg., WC Qualifiers, or big name friendly games such as the Germany fixture) people tend not to watch. I put this down to people's apathy towards the farce that at time surrounds our national team. In my opinion, I think not qualifying for the 2002 World Cup, and our failures a the 2006 WCQ have realy damaged the psyche of the average Iranian soccer fan.
We need a boost, a cause, a victory that will again re-ignite our interest in our nations football.

Agree with your observations. I think the WC 2002 qualification failure and weak results of WC2006 did us in. A big boost like WC2010 qualification and good peroformance there or hell even a miracle performance (like Turkey in Euro 2008) will boost attendence tremendously.

Good example about Ghotbi and PP fans. Heck even SS fans, who didn't show up for games, did very well for the Cup final game against Pegah (around 80-90 K).

[Ali Chicago]

Thank to everyone that participated, I really enjoyed reading this thread. To summarize there are many factors:
Root Cause

• Agha Majid, believes it is the apathy PP and SS fans, because TM players aren't from these two teams and in general apathy of Tehrani fans.
• Gol Kocick pointed out the women issue.
• Libertine I think nailed it in the head when he mentioned the failure to qualify in wc2002 and poor performance of WC2006.
• the_ali mentioned administrative issues, games played during the week, change of schedule, etc.
• Libertine did even better IMO with that long article (that I read through) and showed it is not just us and how African football facing a similar challenge, despite their good performance in the WC.
• I would add the decline of SS and PP at the IPL plus failure of U23 to qualify for the Olympic, IFF ban by FIFA and election fiasco.
  

Solution:

1. Better administration (league be run more regularly, no change or post ponding the league games, games on weekend, better stadium facilities and transportation at the IPL.
2. Play TM games in the provinces where there will be better attendance.
3. TM needs to do well in WC2010 in order for the fans get into football again. It seems if TM starts to do well in WC qualifications/ WC final and AFC championship crowd will come back.
4. Playing against quality teams (European/ South Americans), not that it is going to happen with the current status of Iran in the international arena.

[the-ali]

I think a win on September 6 in Saudi Arabia will boost attendance dramaticaly.

[khabalood]

I just came back from Tehran, and after speaking with many Iroonis about football in Iran, it is apparent that the reasons for low attendance are:

1. People in Tehran are not interested in tm, and football. I had originally believed this to be a phenomenon restricted to one social class, but after speaking with taxi drivers, restaurant workers ect, I can safely conclude that this disinterest is not restricted to one social group, but encompasses all of them.

2. The few who are interested are not aware that tm is playing a game. This is a result of poor propogation and journalism in Iran.

3. Most of the extreme minority that do find out about the games choose to stay home, and watch it on TV in order to avoid the in game fans, and their low class behaviors i.e. fights. Two fights broke out in the section I was sitting in during the Qatar game, although I did not witness any problems during the Philistine game.

[shayan20]

^^thanx for providng us with your first-hand data.

[Ali Chicago]

^^thanx for providng us with your primary information.

Primary information? !