This is a Test for TM and Iranian Football

[VivaItalia]

Viva, in the Persian culture saying jan is a sign of respect, it's not a matter of being nice.

How was I uncivilized within my initial post, just curious?

Wrong Viva, my post had but one question, therefore consists of one part. You only chose to conveniently see it in two parts. By the way you have answered my 1 question correctly within your following statement. And that is, we all do have out limits. Yours has simply not been reached as yet.



Do you know something we don't? Who are these players that we have or are in the process of replacing?? I haven't seen anybody be replaced. On the contrary, it seems to me that Branko has already picked his main squad and is now only looking for a couple of subs for here and there. Why else than would he start the main squad in every single game and play the new invitees in the last 15 minutes of each game, even in a friendly match?

And as for Italy, Brazil, France playing with the same squad, even if that were true, what does that have to do with TM. Perhaps they have found all the missing links for their WC squad, but the question is, have we?? I’ll even give you the answer, “NO WE HAVE NOT”

Arya'e aziz,

- Please don't teach me the Persian Culture. my brain is all full of that. But I think I am experienced enough to distinguish who means it and who does not. (that was my point, in case you missed it)
- Arya jan, did I ever say that you were uncivilized? I love this saying: Cheshma ra baayad shost, joore digar baayad did.
- You raised 2 different questions which could have 2 different answers:

1-if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? (Feelings about Branko's (knowledge?))
2-Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? (Questioning Branko)

I think it's pretty clear. isn't it? I can feel very strongly about Branko but believe that I can question him. right? so, I personaly could give you two different answers, therefore, there are two different questions.

- My post was supposed to be a friendly post, but you took it as a very hostile message! I have no idea why? Maybe next time I should attach my voice to the post too. and possibly a nice picture of mine smilling.

- Let's forget about Italy, Germany and ..., Can you tell me what positions you think we need to find a solution for? Ask every 10 year old kid in Iran, every one can line up TM and I bet 90% of people would line-up the same team, thanks to Branko. you wanna try it?
So, we already know what the problems are and they won't go away until we go to the ONE-MONTH camp. Branko just need to find 22 good players to take there and that's it. the team will be cooked in the one-month camp. the way Ivic cooked it. and this is the period that every national team's coach is waiting for it.

Va-ssalam.

[maij]

Again - all you say is true - especialy the fact that no one wants to have their FUN disturbed - even if it's a short lived - seldom come around - type of fun - such as having our TM play in the WC. But I say again - it seems like you have given up on our football - you seem to be contempt with being in the last bracket - just happy to be there. That is fine and dandy - just don't call us Branko Bashers - or try to tell us there is nothing wrong - or Branco is the best coach.......

Amirza Jan...I think there is a case of mistaken identity here or a slight misunderstanding. I don't recall name calling , but even if I did call someone who bashes Branko a Branko-Basher then what is wrong with that linguistically or ethically?

When I said Branko is the best , you very well know that I meant it considering all aspects and circumastances , NOT that Branco is the best coach in the World !!!!!!

Just like you I love the fact that Iran is in the WC and look forward to them playing there - but let me remind you the 98 WC was much better than the 78 campaign - just because of that one 2-1 win !! And let me also remind you - the fun you may have experienced with our mediocracy - pales in a big way to the fun S.Korean and the Turkish fans experienced in 2002. That is the fun we are after - and we shall get there - by allowing ourselves to discuss Football, Football Organization, Tactics, techniques,........ after all - it's not nuclear physics !! and knowing the unfortunate fact that these days in Iran, we have the era of the incompetant pretenders being in charge !! just about all decesion makers "Train on the Job" - so why not creating a training atmosphere for IFF as well as are pedestrian sports jounalists ??

That there is ineffeciency in football organization ...it goes without saying. That there is faults and shortcoming , that is undenaible fact....But the subject is NOT about this.

It is commendable that you have set your target and your satisfaction level to the standard of the Turkish or Korean teamn of 2002. BUt, that is YOUR personal standard of satisfaction...DO NOT mix it up with the reklaity that IRAN and Team Melli is has not reached that milestone on merit yet.

So, I definately want and perhaps expect the team to make it to the next round ( wait until 9th Dec.) but going beyond that is Roy of the Rover stuff for me.

[maij]

I just have a simple question for you maij jan, if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? .

I don't really think that is a simple question to answer.Ineed two and half pages to answer this , and I doubt that anyone will read it.

Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too?? .

I certainly have my limits. As a professional in my job ( which is nothing to do with footbvall) I respect other professional. Knowing a bit about politics reading the news , or watching documentarties on TV , does NOT entitle me to be a carrier diplomat telling Koofi Anan his job.

I think you'll agree that we all have our limits, therefore, I don't agree with your above statement, and I don't believe you mean to say that you have no right to question such things? Because we all have the god given right to question just about everything..

You lost me there. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. However , since you mentioned it , a person can even question God , religion and anything that exists....my point is that , there are limits and boundries to that.

I can go and steal money from my company and I have ways to make it extremely difficult to get caught. But I elect not to do it for many reasons.

It is not question of ability to question it is a question wheteher you are entitled to do it ethically or otherwise.

That said, I agree with you about the current state of affairs of our nation and the unlikelihood of a capable and respected coach volunteering for the job. I also agree that the IFF will not afford a high priced coach.

I like many others am not asking for Branko's replacement but am entitled to form an opinion based on my own observations, which by the way is not far from yours. You also agree that we have weaknesses within out line-up and/or formation, even Branko himself admits to the fact that he has observed weaknesses within our line-up, but what's become puzzling to me and many others is, why, if we have indeed observed these weaknesses for the past year, have we done nothing to improve in the same areas, and why we insist in allowing the same players in the same formation? Is it in hopes that they will eventually one day soon make a miraculous turnaround and suddenly overnight become the best player in the post?

I'd have to agree with some here that say Branko has not moved away from his original team members and players for the past well 3 to 4 years. This cannot be healthy for our team, nor is it healthy for IPL.

I have NEVER said Branco is faultless. Nobody is. I have never siad people should not criticize him or other people involved with Team Melli. There is a limit on that though which is not absloutely clear even to me!
Simply . I beleive that Branco is clever enough to reliaze his team's weaknesses.
People question "Why is he doing NOTHING about it" which is just pure speculation and downright false..... Because he IS doing something about it ,but not necessarily what you and me think.

Look at Nosrati's saga. In my opinion, this player has shown enoughg weaknesses in National and club level matches , for him to be benched.

Branko thinks otherwise.

Does that mean because of my personal opinion , I should hate Branco or label him as incompetent ??? Sorry , but who am I to do that?? there are 70 million other people like me , what about their point of views??? should he go round collecting votes or thoughts ???

Sorry, it just does not work like that.......

[maij]

Peyman jan...thanks for your kind words, but let me tell you something:
Do you think I will support Branco or any other name/coach/manager for that matter detrimental to Team Melli's reputation?? Do you think that I will ever think that Ali Daei is more important than Team Melli.??

Hell NO , in both cases.

In my book , Team Melli is the priority ,and next comes Team Melli.
I don't think that people who do not support Branco are traitors or what have you. My message is perhaps not as simple as I thought it is , but I will mention it anyhow.
There is a limit in critiques, ethically and technically. There is a wild variety of so-called football experts. A 15 year old boy thinks he is an expert and has the full right to bash anyone living to the eldest member of this forum....everyone thinks he is an expert......!!!!!

Although football is not nuclear science is not as simple as drinking a glass of water either.

Hell.....we are losing focus not to mention sanity in some of the discussions. We are arranging the team , calling for this player to play in that position , arranging friendly with certain countries only , picking the venues and some of them had the audacity to arrange and control the player's careers and lives by petitioning the players not to play in certain countries !!!!!!!!!!

What's next !!!!!! I suppose telling the players that eating banana's instead of oranges’ everyday is better for them!!!!! ........

....and we ALL ARE PASSIONATE TEAM MELLI FANS ......

[Amirza]

I just want to clarify one very important issue.
First of all - as one who has been close to several IFF managers and football writers - let me assure you - some of the discussions going on here and on some other forums are far far more advanced than any football related discussions inside IFF or on the daily football papers in Iran. In fact I wish/hope IFF top officials could read english and benefit from some of the ideas, as well as the latest news and advancements in Football.

The point some of us are raising is not providing simple criticism - we are pushing hard to change the whole approach on how to hire the next coach !!
Whatever IFF asks for when they interview coaching candidates - must include questions about abilities of the candidates in devising and coaching offensive plays.

[Doctor DOOM]

cheers majid jan


lol

... actually from what I have heard, eating bananas IS more beneficial to the players than oranges ( which are by themselves great sources of Vit C , btw )



lets hope TM is pulled out of this slump and we all can get together and cheer their great performances.
and lets hope whoever it is that wields the magic wand, will correct all our defects before the games .

[maij]

I just want to clarify one very important issue.
First of all - as one who has been close to several IFF managers and football writers - let me assure you - some of the discussions going on here and on some other forums are far far more advanced than any football related discussions inside IFF or on the daily football papers in Iran. In fact I wish/hope IFF top officials could read english and benefit from some of the ideas, as well as the latest news and advancements in Football. .

Funny you mentioned that....

I have the same feeling after witnessing live how the Iraninan press , think , act , behave and write. This was during last year's Asian Cup in China.

I can't comment on IFF managers though, I can not claim that I have enought connection with them to form an opinion.

[maij]

cheers majid jan


lol

... actually from what I have heard, eating bananas IS more beneficial to the players than oranges ( which are by themselves great sources of Vit C , btw )



.

Are you serious Is that a fact ??? I only said that because I was eating a banana at the time......

[ARYA]

- Please don't teach me the Persian Culture. my brain is all full of that. But I think I am experienced enough to distinguish who means it and who does not. (that was my point, in case you missed it)

I didn't miss your point but rather wanted to ensure that you understand that the word "jan" is used as a sign of respect, it is not just for being nice. But like you say, not everyone means it.

- Arya jan, did I ever say that you were uncivilized? I love this saying: Cheshma ra baayad shost, joore digar baayad did.

Viva khan, within the following reply, you did insinuate that we are both being uncivilized, when the only one who was being not civil was you by your rash example in trying to put your point across.

Now lets go back to our old good days when we had civilized conversation.

- You raised 2 different questions which could have 2 different answers:
1-if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? (Feelings about Branko's (knowledge?))
2-Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? (Questioning Branko)
I think it's pretty clear. isn't it? I can feel very strongly about Branko but believe that I can question him. right? so, I personaly could give you two different answers, therefore, there are two different questions.

You are wrong again, it is all a single question in trying to arrive at one single answer. You prefer to see it in two parts, simply because you have been proven wrong. Think about it baba, you are trying to tell me what my question is??? Does that make any sense to you?? If you misunderstood the question, just say I misunderstood, but don't be trying to tell me what I'm trying to ask. That's just absurd.

"if our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko, Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?" This is all one question, now do you get it??

- My post was supposed to be a friendly post, but you took it as a very hostile message! I have no idea why? Maybe next time I should attach my voice to the post too.

I don't know about you, but in my book a reply such as the following is quite hostile.

Very funny question!
So you base your argument and logic on "IF"s? Your question is out of place here since our team has reached the WC.

Let me ask you this question: If your father would beat and molest you when you were a child, would you still love him? Think about it! now hate your father and through him out or possibly kill him!!!
This is how your question sounds!
anyways...forget it.

- Let's forget about Italy, Germany and ..., 1. Can you tell me what positions you think we need to find a solution for them? 2. Ask every 10 year old kids in Iran, every one can line up TM and I bet 90% of people would line-up the same team, thanks to Branko. you wanna try it? 3. So, we already know what the problems are and they won't go away until we go to the ONE-MONTH camp. Branko just need to find 22 good players to take there and that's it. the team will be cooked in the one-month camp. the way Ivic cooked it. and this is the period that every national team's coach is waiting for it.
Va-ssalam.

1. You know well and sure about our left back and left wing as well as our unreliable goalie problems, not to mention our team of reserves. So I don't understand the point of this question.

2. Yah lets try it. What kind of a question is that? I'd rather not ask any 10 year olds, but would rather listen to all of the professional coaches and footballers in Iran. Additionally, the point I'm trying to make, is that we are all quite capable of forming our own opinion based on what we see with our own two eyes. And it is all a matter of when one reaches ones limits, trust me Viva, there will come a day when you yourself will say "Enough is Enough". Unfortunately for you that day will probably be when this same exact TM and it's coach have experienced a humiliating WC.

3. First you’d like to do a survey and suggest that 90% of people will line-up the same team, and than you state that we already know what the problems are and will need to resolve them at the camp. So do we have problems within our team or don’t we have problems? You have to pick a side first before you begin an argument.

Branko is going to take the current squad to the WC, he is betting that his main squad will bail him out at the true test. He has proven over and over again that he is not concerned about our trouble areas nor is he concerned about the reserves, otherwise he will have tried the reserves in some friendlies, and would have tried other individuals in our areas of concern for more than 15 minutes in each friendly game?

Do you seriously think that at this point he is still looking for new starters, na azizam, he has already selected his main squad, and as I mentioned before he is now only looking for a couple of reserve players if any, ones who will more than likely see little to no minutes on the pitch.

Our left back, left wing, and goalie problems have gone unattended for so long, what makes you think that Branko will now all of the sudden insert a couple of new players in these areas to start? Why? Because he has proven to be such a flexible coach? Branko has not changed from his original squad in the slightest bit since he's been in charge, so he will not be making any changes at this late stage in the game. The squad you are looking at now with one or two exceptions are the same folks who have been part of the team ever since he took the helm, and will also be the ones representing us at the WC.

Since you agree that we do have areas of concern, and these areas of concern have existed within TM for quite a while, than I don’t understand how you or anyone else for that matter can remain so calm withstanding our current state of affairs, and continue to make excuses for a coach who has shown no signs of flexibility, under whom our TM has shown no signs of improvement in these areas of weakness. It is a case of the blind leading the blind perhaps.

I do like Branko, and respect him for what he has accomplished so far, but Iran and TM has entered a new era. Our professional league has improved considerably within the past few years and has produced quite a few capable footballers, unfortunately however Branko has simply chosen to ignore these new prospects and is choosing instead to stick with his main squad the same ones he put together 4 years ago.

I'd imagine it's the dream of every national team coach to be able to create a club like atmosphere within their team, but even clubs release team members each year for ones who have proven more promising. We are not saying that Team Melli is in need of 22 new players, but why continue to play those individuals whom even by IPL standards are not the best within their respective positions just because they were members of your original squad.

[VivaItalia]

Arya jan,

The first part of our discussion is becoming very childish (you said, I said,...) I am getting kinda old for that. you are absolutely right about that. so lets forget it. I apologize.

and about the second part, lets agree to disagree. I support Branko all the way and I believe that 90% of what he is doing is right. you don't, it's respected. I just hope that Branko stays until the end of the WC and proves everyone wrong. but apart from that, I hope our TM shines (this is the most important objective).

Thank you very much.

[ARYA]

maij jan,

Firstly I'd like to thank you for your well thought out reply.

I'd just like to clarify a few things with-respect to my personal points of view.

If our TM had not reached the WC, would you still feel as strongly about Branko?? Would you still feel as though you have no business questioning a professional coach?? Or do you have your limits too?

The above question was intended to determine, to what extents you are willing to go in following and stand up for Branko. Your following answer proves you are a reasonable individual.

I certainly have my limits. As a professional in my job ( which is nothing to do with footbvall) I respect other professional. Knowing a bit about politics reading the news , or watching documentarties on TV , does NOT entitle me to be a carrier diplomat telling Koofi Anan his job.

I don't believe that I have disrespected anyone, also my posts are not titled "Dear Branko", therefore they are not meant to tell him how to do his job. Simply put, I am voicing my concerns as you do your confidence.

1. You lost me there. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. However, since you mentioned it, a person can even question God , religion and anything that exists....my point is that ,2. there are limits and boundries to that.

3. I can go and steal money from my company and I have ways to make it extremely difficult to get caught. But I elect not to do it for many reasons.

4. It is not question of ability to question it is a question wheteher you are entitled to do it ethically or otherwise.

1. Within your initial post you had made mention of the fact that as mere fans you do not feel it appropriate to question a professional coach. And the point I was trying to make was that everyone has limits, at which point we can and will begin questioning anything and everything.

2. I disagree with this point of view, there should be no limits and boundries placed on ones ability to question things. How can you place limit on such a thing. It's like saying we should not have the right of self-expression. No one is above the law. The only one we are not to question is Khoda and his judgment.

3. I don't understand what point you are trying to make by this statement.

4. Again I disagree, everyone is entitled to question anything, also, who decides what one is entitled to question ethically or otherwise. Only God makes such decisions.

I have NEVER said Branco is faultless. Nobody is. I have never siad people should not criticize him or other people involved with Team Melli. 1. There is a limit on that though which is not absloutely clear even to me!Simply . 2. I beleive that Branco is clever enough to reliaze his team's weaknesses. 3. People question "Why is he doing NOTHING about it" which is just pure speculation and downright false..... Because he IS doing something about it ,but not necessarily what you and me think.

4. Look at Nosrati's saga. In my opinion, this player has shown enoughg weaknesses in National and club level matches , for him to be benched.

Branko thinks otherwise.

Does that mean because of my personal opinion , I should hate Branco or label him as incompetent ??? 5. Sorry , but who am I to do that?? there are 70 million other people like me , what about their point of views??? should he go round collecting votes or thoughts ???

Sorry, it just does not work like that.......

1. Wrong again, there should be no limits placed on ones right for self-expression.

2. This is your belief and your are certainly entitled to it.

3. Perhaps it's you who is wrong and speculating that he is indeed doing something about the current state of affairs, unless you know something I don't know.

4. We both agree on that. The only difference is that I say it my way and you yours. It is entirely up to you whether you wish to be critical and you have chosen not to do so, it does not mean that I love TM any less than you if I criticize the current state of affairs of our national team.

5. You and every other individual on this planet is entitled to question anything that you feel strongly about. Branko is just another man and he can form his own opinion and is entitled to his own point of view, however, does that mean that he is right 100% of the time? He could be wrong in the same way that you or I could be wrong; he can make mistakes as all of us humans do. You are correct in saying that he is there at the camp and sees what goes on, my concern is why have we seen no improvement in our areas of weakness if he has indeed been working on it for the past 4 years? Could it possibly be that perhaps he may not be right about one or two things?

[maij]

Sorry Arya , I really am not interested in continueing such pattern of arguments...I hope you don't get offended.

I could be wrong, of course....BUT ..I have not seen evidence to that effect yet.

What I care for at the end of the day , is the success of Team Melli.

But even if TM looses all the 3 mathes in Germany , I will be as excited as ever for the next match to cheer them up....even a friendly against Maldive (... after a brief mourning period!...that is)

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

You might think that is an extremist point of view , but then again , everyone is entitled to his viewpoint.

Regards.

[ARYA]

Sorry Arya , I really am not interested in continueing such pattern of arguments...I hope you don't get offended.

I'm not offended what so ever.

I could be wrong, of course....BUT ..I have not seen evidence to that effect yet.

I also could be wrong of course, but, I also have seen no evidence of that so far.

What I care for at the end of the day , is the success of Team Melli.

Ditto

But even if TM looses all the 3 mathes in Germany , I will be as excited as ever for the next match to cheer them up....even a friendly against Maldive (... after a brief mourning period!...that is)

As long as our boys give a good showing of themselves at the WC, even if they loose all three games I will not mourn. I will continue to cheer on my national team as I have been for the past 40 years with all of our peaks and valleys.

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

I think you'll agree, no one is sitting at the TM camp looking at the PFDC forum on their laptop and giving instructions to the players based on any of our comments. I don't think you mean to ask us not to speak our mind, this is a forum after all and it is designed for the very thing. And by the way, I also want our TM to be coached by only one man, and if Branko shows that he can do it than more power to him.

You might think that is an extremist point of view , but then again , everyone is entitled to his viewpoint.

Regards.

Neither one of us should view our own personal view as an extremist one, that's just the nature of things.

[Amirza]

.... AND I want TM to be coached by one man only ( his name is Ivancovic at the moment) but NOT by PFDC members...Is that too much to ask ???

So - by the same logic - I am not allowed to even dare to question President Ahmadinejad - because Iran has one President and it's not me ?!!

I am sorry - but I just don't buy your argument - I tend to believe what another member said earlier - you guys don'r want to lose your stadium or TM camp passes or certain rights such as interview rights, etc. And we understand - it's an unfortunate reality that IFF disfavours those who are harsh with them !! and you guys just don't want to be put in that position. But what we don't understand is for some obviously intelligent members and moderators to be Kaseh Dagh tar az Ash.

[maij]

ARYA AGHA....did you say that you have been supporting Team melli for the past 40 years ????

Ay baba...damet garm....I thought I was the grand dad of this


You must have been playing against Marhoom Dehdari in your days