My thought why the big names are not in the squad

[Paradigm]

I must agree with you Doc.

To put it a bit further , I have never been a great admirer of Teymourian even at his best , but this is "Slaighye Shakhsi " my personal opinion. Yet Teymourian , for whatever reason that Daei finds in him , keeps popping up in the list.

As for the original post By Hajagha. We have all noticed the performance of those big names of Team Melli , in particular Kia , Hashemian , Karimi and Rezaei and what results they yielded.

Let us face it , they are not what I call indispensable. They also have not shown any sign of improvement , naturally at their age bracket , they will be looking south.

Like it or not , we need young motivated players. We don't really want another Daei era , and all due respect to him , while he was the lone TM striker.

As a coach , Daei must have seen the shortcoming of the previous era and has learned a valuable lesson. For whatever reason these players are sidelined , I can't really say thay will be sorely missed. Those players being in the squad are probably a bonus , but not a must.

It's because Ando left a very good mark during WC '06 playing (like Kaabi) with gheyrat. This was the time when all other players seemed to be completely out of steam and without motivation. Also the fact that he's been the only Iranian in the British league will help his situation with TM call ups.

[Martin-Reza]

and perhaps Mr tactical himself can explain how much sense it makes to reduce the width of the team just so the coach says "my word goes" !!

it's bloody easy to talk in general terms and quote "tactics" ! lets visit REALITY for a change and see the ACTUAL TACTICS seen in the team ... for a change, shall we ?

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you guys talk a lot about "generalizations and hypothesis" but not once are you ppl going to admit the players used in kia's position ARE shojaei, ando, sadeghi ... and none of them not only add to the width, but also reduce it.

dont talk to me about a GENERAL IDEA of replacing seniors and tactics and ... . we have SPECIFICS to deal with here. we have kia. we have sadeghi. we hve ando. we have shojaei.... these are SPECIFICS.

tell me which one of these guys have done what is required of a right mid ( already mentioned in many posts ).

but if you guys feel like talking in "general" terms, we will open another thread and I will agree with all the generalizations you guys come up with.

Actually only being allowed to bring 6 substitute field players reduced the width in the first place.

Now for RM we have Shojaei, Sadeghi, Gholamnejad, Kaebi and Ando and even Rezaei and Meydavoudi as offensive options in a 4-2-3-1 or so in the squad already. So assuming Daei wants most of these players for a variety of reasons, if he has to cut somebody off for a 18-men-squad it will be a pure rightwinger, so there is little sense taking him away from his club in the first place.

Now also we've seen Daei fielding a 4-4-2 variant with only one DM and one rather OM player (Jabbari, Nouri) in center. This requires at least one of the wingers to fill a more central role as well, something Kia has problems with. This is also supported by the presence of Rezaei, who plays very variably and also often fills a wing position, so the RM often coming over the center more often is again the result.

Then of course Kia is not in the shape that he cannot be replaced.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- that refers to "depth" not width

2- "width" means those players who can run down the line, control the ball along the line and be able to FREQUNETLY send good crosses in-field and into the box , often while running and in sprints along with their markers. that provides WIDTH to the team, which means the opponent defenders have to stretch side ways also to cover these wide players and prevent them from coming in or sending crosses or passing, which reduces the number of defenders in the box which helps the strikers. simple, rudimentary football 1O1 .... which I'm sure you know, but want to avoid .

why avoid? coz none of the players you mentioned with exception of KAABI can deliver this kind of duties.
not ando. not shojaie. not sadeghi. not rezaei. not maydavoodi. not gholamnejad.
only KAABI .... who is best used in DEFENSE, ironically.


everything has been dissected and explained.
now, if you guys want to pretend ( key word here, so I'll repeat ) ... PRETEND shojai/ando/sadeghi/... can deliver the duties of a WIDE players, go ahead. knock yourselves out. but would all that denial suddenly conjure up 3 pin point crosses ( like kia's ) from the feet of any of these?
NO !


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armin jan, I'm afraid that may be true.

tomorrow the coach may want to "replace" ( seems to be a popular word nowadays ) nekunam with mirzapoor. that act of "replacing" is enough for all to rise up to praise or defense.
who cares if mirza cant do what neku does?
the important thing is that a player is being "replaced" and that tells him there's no guarantee !!!

jabr-e roozegaar ro bebin ! how the world turns !

[maij]

It's because Ando left a very good mark during WC '06 playing (like Kaabi) with gheyrat. This was the time when all other players seemed to be completely out of steam and without motivation. Also the fact that he's been the only Iranian in the British league will help his situation with TM call ups.

Thanks...... I forgot about that part. Indeed Ando was a fighter .

[Martin-Reza]

@ DD, I think Kaebi, Shojaei and Gholamnejad are able to provide width but mainly I think Daei wants less width in midfield, a bit more the diamond version, that's why Zandi is preferred on the left (who surely doesn't provide width) and players who can also play more centrally or are more central players on the right. That allows the second central MF beside Nekounam to go forward more often.

In short: He doesn't want width but still has options for that available (Shojaei, Kaebi, Hajsafi, Nikbakht...). Width in midfield is one basic tactic, but not the only irreplaceable.

[kaz]

Actually I was talking about tactical reasons for Kia's exclusion, I don't know why you are trying to oppose sth I didn't even bring on the table.

My reply was more general rather than specific touching points that relate to plenty of examples.

As for Karimi's case. He is miles past his prime while we have really good alternatives to him, he is rejected by Qatari clubs these days, has no club and therefore probably is not even in training. The first reason is the main reason for his exclusion. He, like any other players, of course has the chance to make his way back into TM by good performances on club level, since he can't deliver that at the moment, he has no chance to come back to TM - before he finds a club and shows his quality there over at least a few weeks. This is a very simply and usual thing in football, I don't get why creative theories are always needed to explain such football-basics.

Whilst that may be your opinion, it's incorrect. Someone with 5 goals and tonnes of assists in only 12 games cannot be considered failure but any measure. Whether Qatari's want him or not is only half the equation. Daei in his prime was put aside by an Arab club, remember? But we had no better alternative and we stuck to him. To name some of the newbies as alternatives is a disgrace. It's debatable any of them have his talent, and not so when we talk about his experience.

The fact that half the team comes from a side with poor club form but are being invited, trounces on the logic that we need players who at least play for a club to be good - regardless if their form was good. What's the difference between Karimi's situation and Ando's? Ando might as well be without a club as he barely plays.

And since he barely plays, why doesn't Hossain Kazemi play for Ando? Considering it is enough reason - the same reason - to not invite Kia and play Kaabi or a nobody like Gholamnejad. "Kia doesn't play for his club much and Kaabi does", wow really? The same then for Kazemi and Teymourian. Kazemi is a starter and Ando plays even less than Kia for his club.

I can go on and on about the contradictions here but as I said, the excuses don't wash and some people here are just being apologists for things they cannot understand themselves.

Again, the issue with Kia, Karimi, whoever, is NOT form or talent related, it is purely personal. There are too many contradictions in Daei's own pickings for me to ever "consider" support for his "ideas". Some people, ironically, the same group that supported the same incompetents in the WC are supporting the same incompetents who run the show now (who just happened to be at that WC too).

There was a time where not only was Ali Daei crap in club, he wasn't any good for country AND he was old and past it...but we had guys like MR routinely defend such a position. They tried to make a distinction that "club form and form for country is different and we have no better alternatives". Well, what about someone like Karimi? He has not been played under Daei to DISPROVE himself - even if you think he has been poor at club level.

Conversely, we had players like Reza Enayati who were doing wonderfully at club level back then, were young and NEVER GOT A DECENT SNIFF at replacing the old and aging Daei. Now these SAME people want exactly what they were opposed to years back.

Forgive me, this is like Deja Vu: the Bush administration got it wrong years back, Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Quaeda or 9/11, they lied...and yet they STILL want trust.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- I have absolutely NO idea how shojaei can be even mistaken with a WIDE player !

2- neither niki nor zandi are called up.

3- that leaves hajsafi and madanchi for the left . both of whom are suitable for the job. but a right side that has NO ONE ... unless he takes Kaabi out of RB and brings him up !

so once again, we'll have an imbalanced team on the wings !


4- and finally, it is rather foolish for any coach to try to omit width from his team. unless his plans are something like what malaysia did in front of us.
if you guys are happy with THAT miserable and shameful strategy against ksa, then so be it.
some of us will not be.

[Ali Chicago]

lol.. if any other coach had dropped Kia, the same guys who defend Daie's decision would ask for his head...
just a point i wanted to make..
don't worry guys, we'll come to this again in a couple of years.

So True. Amazing how the whole human species has the talent to jusity anything. Myself included. Kam ghooyoo gozedeh gooy choon doer.
Tried to Repp you, but said have to spread it around before giving it to you.

[Ali Chicago]

Bet you right now biggest worry of Daie is to start Hashemian or not. He invited him but for a defensive game Iran will play he can't use him. Iran will play a strongly defenisve 4-2-3-1 and in this situation Iran is, Rezai will seem to be a more logical option based on his speed and counter attack and tenacity (amount of running the guy do).

Now see how big is Ali Daie's ball to invite Hasmeian and not start him. I am really looking forward to it.

[Martin-Reza]

Kaz jan, unfortunately it seems you became Dr. Doom's Minime . Just in short, we have many great alternatives to Karimi, that's why he is replaced. There was none for Daei, especially not that heavy smoker.

Ando's position indeed is challenged by Sadeghi at the moment. Still he at least played in one of two Premier League matches, tactically fits into Daei's system, he is not already way past his prime and apart from Sadeghi we don't have similar players with enough quality in Iran to challenge his spot in the roster. These things differ his situation from Karimi's and some from Kia's situation. You don't wanna see the difference it seems though.

I would have a question for you, how do you come to the conclusion eg. Karimi's exclusion is personal? Is it simply because you subjectively see no sporting reason for his exclusion and therefore assume it must be personal or is there some other logic I have overseen?

DD aziz,
1) Shojaei fits the wide position well, he has speed, technique and the ability to cross.

2) Zandi is definitely called up, Nikbakht seemingly is out for Madanchi I suppose

3) Neither of the two leftwingers will start though, but the more centrally playing Zandi, so there is balance, Shojaei on the right will be the wider winger even

4) That is pretty naive, as systems like 4-4-2 diamond or 4-3-3 successfully take the width out of the midfield. Additionally taking width out of the midfield doesn't mean taking width out of the game as you have wingbacks or wing-forwards as well in different systems.

@ Ali jan, Hash will surely start as Daei will probably go for a 4-4-2 with Hash and Rezaei upfront (maybe more a 4-4-1-1 with Rezaei as support striker). Rezaei doesn't fit the lone striker role in a 4-2-3-1 either, so then Hash would be sole striker once more I guess. I agree that a more defensive approach won't make Hashemian look too well though.

[gol_kuchik]

Bet you right now biggest worry of Daie is to start Hashemian or not. He invited him but for a defensive game Iran will play he can't use him. Iran will play a strongly defenisve 4-2-3-1 and in this situation Iran is, Rezai will seem to be a more logical option based on his speed and counter attack and tenacity (amount of running the guy do).
Now see how big is Ali Daie's ball to invite Hasmeian and not start him. I am really looking forward to it.

Not so sure. I think Hashemian would be as good or better in a defensive
formation than Rezai, mostly because of his vast experience. Rembmer,
eventhough him and Peter Neururer didn't get along, still he did very well
as a striker who helped in defensive formation, and particularly in 4-2-3-1.
(They had quite a few draws back in 06).
But the coach has to decide. (i.e can't blame him for not scoring,
much like Daei's own answer when he was helping Defence and not scoring under Branko was, "I am doing what the coach has asked me to do".

In Asian Cup, Vahid played 88 minutes against Korea and was all over the
field particularly in the middle, covering spaces and putting pressure on the
Korean MF. He was also drawing at least one and sometimes 2 defenders.
(Alas Khateebee was not a finisher).

So as much as I like Rezai, I still havent seen him enough in that role,
(helping with pressing in the middle) simply because of quality of our opponents so far has not placed that kind of demand on him.

I think a reaonable game plan would be to try and control the game, with Vaheed starting (showing a desire for a draw up to about 65-70) and bring in Rezai perhaps for counter attacks. Coincidentally, this type of game plan worked real well for Sepahan against Al-Etehad.

[Ali Chicago]

Not so sure. I think Hashemian would be as good or better in a defensive
formation than Rezai, mostly because of his vast experience. Rembmer,
eventhough him and Peter Neururer didn't get along, still he did very well
as a striker who helped in defensive formation, and particularly in 4-2-3-1.
(They had quite a few draws back in 06).
But the coach has to decide. (i.e can't blame him for not scoring,
much like Daei's own answer when he was helping Defence and not scoring under Branko was, "I am doing what the coach has asked me to do".

In Asian Cup, Vahid played 88 minutes against Korea and was all over the
field particularly in the middle, covering spaces and putting pressure on the
Korean MF. He was also drawing at least one and sometimes 2 defenders.
(Alas Khateebee was not a finisher).

So as much as I like Rezai, I still havent seen him enough in that role,
(helping with pressing in the middle) simply because of quality of our opponents so far has not placed that kind of demand on him.

I think a reaonable game plan would be to try and control the game, with Vaheed starting (showing a desire for a draw up to about 65-70) and bring in Rezai perhaps for counter attacks. Coincidentally, this type of game plan worked real well for Sepahan against Al-Etehad.

Gol Kuchik Jaan;

It is not about the fact that Vahid, won't run his guts out for Iran. I am sure he will. He is that type of player anyways.

The point is that Vahid, doesn't have the speed of Rezaie, so when Saudi's defense gonna push up probably standing on the half line, the space behind them can be used up very much by a speedy forward, like Rezaie, (Borhani on his hay days not now), even I hate to admit it Rasoul Khatibi. Rather than a target forward like Hashemian.


Football is a game that anything can happen in it, but based on the known facts ahead of the game, I think if one would think logically and has the coaching expreience or being as astute footbll players or fans, can put 2 and 2 together and see my logic.

[Ali Chicago]

Kaz jan, unfortunately it seems you became Dr. Doom's Minime . Just in short, we have many great alternatives to Karimi, that's why he is replaced. There was none for Daei, especially not that heavy smoker.

....

Daie was replacable and never a clutch player since I watched him (1997). Didn't see him in AFC 1996, so at that time maybe a different story.


From 1998-2002 he did contribute to the TM. I personally appreciate the amount of traveling he did for the WC 2002 qualifications and how he hurt his club prospect by coming to the TM games. Post 2003, he was a liability to the TM. But when it comes to Daie, he always seems to be treated differently, good for him. He made himself famous but not loved by fans the way other footballers are. Time will show in his coaching carrier as well.

[Doctor DOOM]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

forgive me if I cant hold my laughter at some of the "brilliant" statements here in the thread.
all time winners like :
"Ando's position indeed is challenged by Sadeghi at the moment" . we know ando isnt in form. but sadeghi, of all ppl ?
hahahahahha
sadeghi cant even challenge HIS own position or call up, let alone vie for another's !
great joke. needed it , today.

or
"we have good alternatives for kia"
another brilliant joke.
heeheehee ... I guess sadeghi is challenging kia's position as well.

hell, while we are being utterly outlandish with our claims, why stop there? lets say "sadeghi is vying for TWO positions AT THE SAME TIME. he's so good that the team will replace TWO players ( ando and kia ) with one ( sadeghi ) and is ready to play w 10 men"

what's next?
sadeghi vying for goalkeeping as well ?

the absurd-o-meter hits the max when we actually consider sadeghi's performances in the past months !!!


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news flash : just becoz an absurd claim is repeated again & again, it does NOT suddenly transform into TRUTH !

we can go on saying "sadeghi's a good player" till dogs start laying eggs. but that does not become the truth.
... not until he starts playing well.
which he has not so far.

[Martin-Reza]

Yes, Sadeghi of all people. And there is no real other option but him and maybe Rahmati, that is why Ando is still in depite bad shape. You slowly get the point. Same for Zare, no good options, he is playing as one-eyed among the blind.

Arrogance won't help you making your point. I'm also not laughing at your sorry tries to make Mobali sound like a great midfielder, at least no in public. Will he go to KSA btw, no, ooh, he must have tried to kill Ahmadinejad, just like all the other exlcuded players.

And a small correction to kaz' earlier stats, Karimi scored 5 goals in 25 matches for Qatar SC (source Wikipedia). Qatar League's topscorer of last season has 27 goals btw, just as a comparison. Karimi is on position 26 of last season's topscorers. An assist statistic would be interesting to see if he has been outstanding in that regard. I doubt this though, otherwise they would have kept him and not transferred him to the third-last team of last season with twice as many losses as wins and a -13 goal difference.