The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[gol_kuchik]

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.
My only comment is about the title of the thread. I am sure English is probably 3rd language of Martin. So the usage of word conspiracy I dont' think is right in this case. Conspiracy has a different meaning.
Bias IMO is the right word not conspiracy. No one is accusing the Daie for conspiracy. For all I know Daie is the head coach and he can select whoever he wants and doesn't need to be responsive to anyone, because at the end he is the one whose neck is on the line. To be honest, I think we are making too much of this.
IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting will deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???
To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

I agree almost 100%. (except the re-invitation of Vahid shows Ali Daei is
flexible and pragmatic. To me this leaves room for optimism). I think if he
invites Kia for Korea, no one would interpret this as his weakness but strength.
The same way when Vahid was invited no one said why are you inviting Vahid,
fans are much smarter than they get credit for.

[maij]

Nice post , Ali jan.

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.

I don't see that argument between those who fully support Daei and those against , the way you see it. I DO fully support him and obviously try to justify his motives, notwithstanding what is in his mind , of course.

If you put yourself in any leader , captain , coach , administrator shoes , specially in a high profile capacity , you would certainly want your team to succeed and win....Don't you ?

So, he fact that Daei has excluded some of the big names is indicative to some courage and confidence more than conspiracy/bias theory.

There is no question that Kia and Karimi are still capable able bodied players. I have a feeling that if they were needed, they will be called. But if the coach does not see the need for them , then this should be respected,

IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting will deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???

Very possible scenario but then again there is nothing wrong with that. I have been a leader of many project teams, departments and work groups and I always selected the people that I felt comfortable with be it performance based or disciplinary. I think it is the norm with others to do the same. You would not select a person in a team that you don't trust or think he/she will let you down or has contempt for you.

To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

That person was Thomas Doll.

As you said , this is quite common but this is part and parcel of life.

In a true professional environment , leadership must be respected and when a leader position is undermined , the a team can not perform to its maximum efficiency and potential.

Let me add one comment here, and that is purely personal view.
The leader of the team , may not be the best person for the job, and in the eastern culture , it is quite possible that he reached his position based on "whom he knows rather that what he knows" .

[Doctor DOOM]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

[Ali Chicago]

I agree almost 100%. (except the re-invitation of Vahid shows Ali Daei is
flexible and pragmatic. To me this leaves room for optimism). I think if he
invites Kia for Korea, no one would interpret this as his weakness but strength.
The same way when Vahid was invited no one said why are you inviting Vahid,
fans are much smarter than they get credit for.

I hope you are right. Granted I am a bit suspicious of Mr. Daie behavior, so I love to see if you right. I beleive if Khalili wasn't injured, Vahid wasn't invited. But I hope I am wrong.

At the end we all want the TM goes to WC2010 and do well there, so we need all our assets. If Mr. Daie honstly thinks Kia isn't an asset, I truly hope he has more than Kaabi , Gholamreza Razai or Gholamnezhad in mind. I don't know how many know that Gholamnezhad doesn't even start in Paas.

I hope Mr. Daie tries to forget about the past, if that is actually the main reason for not inviting Kia and Karimi and try to fully utilize our assets. I used to think getting to Wc2010 must be easy with almost 5 seeds for Asia. Thinking if we even come third in our group we should be able to beat the 3rd team in the other group and then be able to beat New Zeland from Ocenia. A resurgent North Korea worries me now and I think it is much tougher than my original estimation.

[maij]

yes, we saw how the "fighters" have fared so far, and if we are fair, we shd admit they havent fared well at all.
it's not just about "fighting". put mirzapoor there and he'd fight as hard as the next fellow. so what ?

if you have to change the tyres of your rover, would you mind if instead of a regular tyre, they put a "wooden wheel" ?
it "rotates" afterall.
dont you want "rotation" only ?

How they fared ?
OK....the possibilities of your statements are
1) the elimination of Team Melli from the World Cup qualification rounds , I presume ...
2) The failure of Team Melli to beat Saudi Arabia 5-0 in Riyadh

3) Failure of the likes of Shojaei and Rezaei to do a Maradonna or Messi in their matches....

Which one , Doc?

I also hope you were kidding when you said his crosses arent good or .... .
compared to whom?

Kidding ??? You must be watching too much "Seinfeld" re-runs , Doc

coz if you say that in defense of daei's choices ( as is the routine here ), then you may be requested to back it up with evidence that all/any of daei's choices' crosses are BETTER than kia's.
... which wouldnt be an outrageous request IMO. perfectly valid especially in kia's case

shall we compare sadeghi's, ando's and shojaei's crosses to kia's ?

Fair enough.....How many matches that Kia played for in Team Melli recently , do you have access to?

Do you have access to the last match that Kia played ? If you have then watch it and then we will compare notes. That is about the best I can do as far as evidence is concerned.

and what IS this mysterious "definitive" argument?
we arent allowed to compare kia with his replacements ?

then shall we compare him to kia of 2005? perhaps that's the definitive argument?
or shall we compare him to schweinsteiger ?
or should we compare him to pele ? or maybe michael phelps ? or a tree

majid jan, comparing what we give to what we gain IS the definitive argument, ey baradar

?

Sorry , you lost me there...... I have read it several times, and I am not sure what you are saying.

maybe you can elaborate a bit more here so I can provide an argument.

[maij]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

Sound argument.

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

[Ali Chicago]

while Ali's and majid's statement on " a leader/coach/... would want ppl who follow his orders and is comfortable with them" is correct , but as with EVERYTHING else in life, there are limits and boundaries for this.

there is always a check and balance to everything.
in the end, what we gain shd always come out on top of what we lose.
am I correct? or are we to deny this also?

therefore, there is a need for this check and balance, to make sure we end up with something positive, not negative.
and once again, I have to repeat this: while the coach's desires are important, they are NOT the top priority. the absolute TOP priority is the TEAM's needs and fate.
if this is not denied or refuted, then we can say an individual in this collective is dissolved into it and with it, some certain likes/dislikes when they are not in line with the needs or fortunes of the collective.


I dont think majid jan would pick his friend, whom he's very comfortable with, to do the job of a skilled employee. does he? I dont think so.
he's however, pick among the two employees best suited for the job, the one he feels more comfortable with.
correct?
hence the need for comparison and detail in performance.

Payman Jaan;

I never claimed that there is no limit. If you read my post again, you see I said that limit is where the dispute and argument comes in.

It is no secret that I am criticial of few decisions football wise and the approach of Mr. Daie toward Media. So I definitly don't think his authority is limitless.

In this post, I was trying to point out that we can't get to a solution in this thread, base on pure logic (hence it is not 2*2=4 comment).

[maij]

I hope you are right. Granted I am a bit suspicious of Mr. Daie behavior, so I love to see if you right. I beleive if Khalili wasn't injured, Vahid wasn't invited. But I hope I am wrong.

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.

[Ali Chicago]

Nice post , Ali jan.



I don't see that argument between those who fully support Daei and those against , the way you see it. I DO fully support him and obviously try to justify his motives, notwithstanding what is in his mind , of course.

If you put yourself in any leader , captain , coach , administrator shoes , specially in a high profile capacity , you would certainly want your team to succeed and win....Don't you ?

So, he fact that Daei has excluded some of the big names is indicative to some courage and confidence more than conspiracy/bias theory.

There is no question that Kia and Karimi are still capable able bodied players. I have a feeling that if they were needed, they will be called. But if the coach does not see the need for them , then this should be respected,




Very possible scenario but then again there is nothing wrong with that. I have been a leader of many project teams, departments and work groups and I always selected the people that I felt comfortable with be it performance based or disciplinary. I think it is the norm with others to do the same. You would not select a person in a team that you don't trust or think he/she will let you down or has contempt for you.






That person was Thomas Doll.

As you said , this is quite common but this is part and parcel of life.

In a true professional environment , leadership must be respected and when a leader position is undermined , the a team can not perform to its maximum efficiency and potential.

Let me add one comment here, and that is purely personal view.
The leader of the team , may not be the best person for the job, and in the eastern culture , it is quite possible that he reached his position based on "whom he knows rather that what he knows" .

Thanks, glad to see we can find commonalities in certain areas. Let me add my two cents.
I don't know what do you do for your day to day life, but based on your comments it seems you work in a professional environment yourself in a team lead capacity.

In the west currently in the management (at least to the level I am exposed to) they talk about leaders and managers and difference between the two. They are talking about influencing without being a manager. These are deep topics to discuss in this forum. But I wish, and history has shown that when (in the long run) the management has worked with buy in rather than enforcing his ideas down the people's throat, result has been more positive.

I am not accusing mr. Daie or anybody, I wasn't there, but from outside, and based on his behavior with the media, it seems Mr. Daie uses a fear based and demanding respect attitude with media (I assume it is 100 times stronger with players), rather than earning respect and use soft power.

I am not in Iran and maybe in current situation this approach won't work in current Iran, but we need to start somewhere. I have said times and times again, if we keep doing the samething we did in the past and apply the same method , results will be the same.

[Ali Chicago]

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.

I think you are missing the point. Of course it won't make a difference. Gol Kuchik's comment was Daie is felxible because he invited Hashemian. He used that example as a sign of supporting his felxibility. I said, I think he was forced due to the Khalili's injury. Hope that clarifies. I can care less with who we get to the WC. If Mr. Daie's pesar khaleh playes but we get to the WC in a reasuuring way I am all for it.

[Ali Chicago]

Sound argument.

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

No coach on purpose wants his team to loose of course. But his ways or methods that he is sure will respond, might be the wrong ways.

I am sure you heard the quote in English " Road to hell is paved with good intentions". Now I am not saying god forbid Mr. Daie is leading us to hell, but the point is one can make mistakes that work against himself or hereself without knowingly wanting to.

You may ask how X and Y and Z knows and coach doesn't know it. Well, it could be that collective brain power at times can work much better than a single brain. Now the billion dollar question is how to find that "at times"!!!!!

[Doctor DOOM]

How they fared ?
OK....the possibilities of your statements are
1) the elimination of Team Melli from the World Cup qualification rounds , I presume ...
2) The failure of Team Melli to beat Saudi Arabia 5-0 in Riyadh

3) Failure of the likes of Shojaei and Rezaei to do a Maradonna or Messi in their matches....

Which one , Doc?


========================================

Kidding ??? You must be watching too much "Seinfeld" re-runs , Doc


========================================


Fair enough.....How many matches that Kia played for in Team Melli recently , do you have access to?

Do you have access to the last match that Kia played ? If you have then watch it and then we will compare notes. That is about the best I can do as far as evidence is concerned.


==========================================


Sorry , you lost me there...... I have read it several times, and I am not sure what you are saying.

maybe you can elaborate a bit more here so I can provide an argument.

1- first of all that is clear dodging that may go well as the general forum.
we all know becoz a team wins does not mean they played well, or if a team loses it doesnt mean they played poorly.
so plz dont reduce the debate to "1"s and "0"s.

we are talking about the quality of performance of select players, given their duties and roles in a match.

just looking at the score-board is exactly what most of us do : sweeping the dirt under the rug !
something that was tried in this game too

=============================

that seinfeld remark does not answer how you reached the conclusion that kia's crosses arent good enough.
unless there is an episode where seinfeld discusses kia's crosses with evidence, that I missed.
any videos of that one ?
so until I see this episode, I'm going to call this answer as another dodging.

==============================

I dont understand.
do you mean to say kia when he was a part of TM, played worse than these chaps?
or do you mean to take ONE game and compare that one game with these guys?

tell you what ,majid jan.
lets sum up all sadeghi's games and his contributions to the team and his personal performance score.
ADD that to ANDO's games where he played in kia's post, and his contributions and personal score
then, ADD that sum, to shojaei's personal score and controibutions when he played in kia's post.
sum up all these numbers.
then, multiply it by two .... faghat be gol-e jamalet.
then, add number 3 ( coz they are 3 players ) to this sum ... be gol-e jamale daei jan.
and reach a number. lets say X.
calculate the number of these games. (Y)

then take ANY of kia's games equaling the number (Y).
then lets see kia's contributions and personal score in those games. (Z )

then if we compare X with Z, I bet my last derham X will be half as much az Z.
( in fact I'd venture X would be around 7 or 8 !!! )




================================

you said :

Why are some of you providing negative arguments to justify your case ?

Kia is not the best shooter , but neither is anyone else?

Kia crosses are not accurate , but his is still better that all the team?

Kia is becoming old , But so was Daei while playing in TM?

Kia has raped a girl , so has a few hundred thousands filling prisons ?
(OK... this one is a joke , just in case some of you didn't realize it)

With such line of arguments , which is far from being Intellectual ,one can hardly reach any conclusion.

Two wrongs does not make a right.


Frankly and all due respect to all that have made a case for Kia , and yes there are some good arguments , however NONE OF YOU have provided a definitive and solid case for his inclusion in my opinion.

you wanted a definitive argument.
and the argument/case was made in comparison to the alternatives.

if I ask you made a definitive case for why I shd take a banana ( while others say potato chips ), you'd naturally compare the benefits of a banana against those of chips.
and naturally you'd say a banana has calcium, chips dont.
banana has vitamins, chips dont.
banana has glucose for immediate energy, chips dont have as much
banana has ....

ok. if you dont want the comparison, lets try this:
kia has great crossing, with good enough accuracy and frequency.
he has good shooting ability
he has good enough speed ( altho , perhaps, not as fast as he was before )
kia has pretty good defensive abilities
kia has immense experience and maturity
kia is pretty versatile
kia ...... etc etc etc
what does that get kia? claps and some hoorahs.

but when we compare kia with the chaps used in his post at TM, we get a more clear picture of what we have and what we COULD have.
then, we can assess what we stand to gain and what we stand to lose.
thus, making decision making easier.

this is as simple as I could put it, in simple words.
beyond this, I'm incapable of making it simpler.

[maij]

I am not accusing mr. Daie or anybody, I wasn't there, but from outside, and based on his behavior with the media, it seems Mr. Daie uses a fear based and demanding respect attitude with media (I assume it is 100 times stronger with players), rather than earning respect and use soft power.

I am not in Iran and maybe in current situation this approach won't work in current Iran, but we need to start somewhere. I have said times and times again, if we keep doing the samething we did in the past and apply the same method , results will be the same.

Ali Jan, in Aviation field which I have worked in , there is quite a big emphasis on what is referred to as "Cultural awareness" and this awareness extends from the two pilots in the flight deck up to dealing with foreign governments , companies and aviation authorities. The basic idea is for us to understand that people act differently to events based on their culture and react accordingly.

Why I say this ? Because you brought a very good point about the environment in Iran and Ali Daei's attitude. Admittedly I have never worked in Iran , but I have dealt quite bit with Iran's aviation from handling agents , to civil aviation authorities.

The biggest problem I found dealing with them is lack of discipline , haphazard attitude and lack of quality. For example , you find a mistake in what a staff has done in a load sheet , instead of apologizing or correcting their mistakes , you are faced with something like " Hala , be khoobi khodat radish kon" Basically saying , forget about it .

When there is something that is not allowed by the authorities , you will normally find some smart Alec who will tell you " Man Ma'amoor Forodghah mishinasam , radish mikonam....Khateret Jam bashe..." - Don't worry about it , I know the Airport Manager ......

Basically , if they can get away with murder , they will attempt to do it. This is quite different from the western culture where people repect the law and stick to it . Self Discipline.

From what I hear ...the most frustrated people or professionals in Iran are those who came back to the country after living in the west. They have difficulty acclimatizing to this easy going mentality of their homeland.

Iran needs strong leadership , not a popular one , in order to acheive success in all fields.

[maij]

Peyman jan..... Khodet be Kocheh Ali Chap nazan, Dadash.

Watch the last matches of Kia that HE PLAYED in Team Melli , then we can compare notes about his virtues.

I can't be more clearer that that.

The last match he played was against Syria in Azadi.

[Doctor DOOM]

Peyman jan..... Khodet be Kocheh Ali Chap nazan, Dadash.

Watch the last matches of Kia that HE PLAYED in Team Melli , then we can compare notes about his virtues.

I can't be more clearer that that.

The last match he played was against Syria in Azadi.

I suppose you want to say this was his weakest game.
I will try to watch it later.

but lets say this:
if he had at least ONE CORRECT CROSS, then he's done better than sadeghi and ando.
if he's had at least ONE correct interception in that game, then he's done better than shojaei also.

you seem to remember the game better than me. did he have at least 1 good cross and 1 good interception or defensive move ?

=============

and while I'm watching that one, I invite you to watch ANDO's last match in kia's post too ( he had wrong pass after wrong pass. nothing else ! )

and then if you can, watch sadeghi's last match in kia's post too. ( he's been consistently playing poor )

and shojaei's last match in kia's post too ( he had 1 cross and a couple of dribbles. no defense and a couple of turn-overs )

but the matter is that while we can give a bit of leeway to a player for one or two poor games, we cant do that for players who have had a SERIES of poor ones. can we ?

I dont know who is doing the "kooche ali chap" here.


================================================== ====

we're setting a very tricky and dangerous precedence here by merely picking one game to prove a player's eligibility or lack of.
coz then, by the same token, we shd get rid of :
ando
zareh
sadeghi
VH
zandi
aghili
hosseini
hajsafi

...etc etc.

are you ready to get rid of the above names ?
they all had a weak last match , whenever they played it.
shall we ?
I say lets start with hosseini. out with him.
then we go to aghili.
next, ando
next hajsafi, followed by VH, after him, zareh and finally sadeghi .

but wait.
I remember nekunam having a bad game a month or two back.
lets throw him out too !