The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[gol_kuchik]

My first views on this issues:

1) The overall qualities and weaknesses of Mahdavikia

I think speed has been a major quality of Kia but it has declined in recent years, so it's not anymore. I would say his crossing, indirect setpieces, overview, quick decision making and vast experience are his main advantages. To his weaknesses I would add shooting and scoring in general, defensive one-on-ones also that he basically can only be used on the right line, not really on the left nor in a more central position.

But I don't think anyone is suggesting he should be used as a left wing
attacker or CM. But some of your other points are simply not precise:

Mehdi is not the strongest shooter, but neither is anyone else on our TM
roster with exception of players like Neko (and even he I would not consider
top quality shooter, but better than rest of what we got). Cetainly if you watch Rezai,
you can not claim he is a strong shooter, nor Ando or Kaabi or Shojaei.

As for scoring, he is giving great assissts, and that would be his role to
feed from the right wing, Vahid, who only got one scoring chance against
Saudis.

As for defensive quality, common MR jan, which *other* player can do well
as a defensive left on TM roster? Then why single out Kia for this?

2) The positions Mahdavikia can play and possible roles in the usual tactical systems of TM (4-4-2 diamond, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 flat)


In a 4-4-2 diamond only the rightback position and maybe the RCM, but both not ideally suiting his strength and weaknesses, especially the latter. In a 4-2-3-1 he can play rightback and ideally the right forward position, in a 4-4-2 rightback and right midfield which probably his strongest position.

RCM would be perfect and I think he can contribute greatly from that postion.

3) His competitors in TM for the different posts

In my eyes he has direct and indirect competitors. For the RM position ot would be Kaebi, Shojaei and even Gholamnejad, for RB Kaebi and Gholamnejad, for RFW in the 4-2-3-1 Shojaei, Kaebi, Rezaei, Meydavoudi. I will come back to comparisons of strength and weaknesses later.

Not sure the above will even preclude having Mehdi on (Although Meydavoudi
has been a huge disappointment so far).
Kaabi (RD) Shojai (CM attack) Mehdi RCM , Rezai RF. Additional comments
on 7.

4) His current form and club situation

As already mentioned, by this token Vahid (who is currently injured),
Ando and Shojai should not play either. (againt please look at item 7).

5) What are the issues between Mahdavikia and Daei leading Daei to exclude him? (here sources would be great if available)

I am not aware of any.

Neither am I. I simply found his exclusion real strange. (Again read #7)

6) Are you convinced the door is closed for Mahdavikia or is there a way back for him? Also interesting: would Kia being invited again for some upcoming games be a proof for the allegations towards Daei being wrong?

I think the door is open. If he improves his form and standing in Frankfurt or any other club he might go to in winter as well as more width in midfield being wanted against other opponents Daei won't hesitate to call him back.

Here I differ with the conspiracy folks. To me if a coach thinks player A
and B are about even in contribution and he likes player B more it is absolutely
within his realm of authority/power to choose the one he likes more. Again
read #7

7) All other issues you would like to adress about Kia's exclusion from TM you feel are not covered by the six earlier questions, or for general conclusions or summaries of your points.

For me there is nothing fishy about his exclusion. I would have nothing against him in TM, but his inclusion is no must currently. I generally think giving younger players a chance is correct when the veteran player is not in top shape and the alternatives can compete on the level needed for this WCQ.

Martin-Reza, in a football team, you have impact players which can turn the tied
for a team. I am afraid, your 2+2 equation would not exactly be a good
measure to see if Kia should or should not be on TM roster.

Please look back at DelPiero (1 year older than Kia when he played for Italian team in WC 2006). He came in one game in minute 88 and scored. I think
one has to be certainly a bit unfair to suggest Kia is not that type of impact
player. The issue is with the way we want to deploy him. He is not perhaps
able to contribute for entire 90 minutes, but if we look at our current
brightest TM prospect (Rezai) neither was he against SA.

But a player like Kia (just like Zedane) can bring so much more to the team
and the bench by their mere presence, work ethics and leadership roles. I
don't know if like the first round Kia is just injured and could not play for TM.
But *if* he is ready and willing, it would be very short sighted to leave him out of TM roster because he is not as quick as Gholamnejad?!

I hate to speculate on ulterior motives, it may simply be a bad advise or
doing a 2+2 like you are doing but Kias presence can help TM in ways
we have come and expected from his caliber of player, particularly as he
realizes the end of his career in not too distant future.

[Martin-Reza]

I added the first conclusions. Please let me know if you feel a major point has been left out or someone was wrongly quoted. Please have understanding that it's not easy to extract the info from the posts and sum it up very shortly, so in case you feel imbalance let me know, and don't assum there was anything on purpose. This will be constantly be updated with new opinions coming in.

I just have a request:

Kaz jan, can you post the links of any newspiece of Nilou or Nader adressing this issue? I know such issues can not always be backed up by sources on the net (much is insider info), but anything about this matter would help.

[Doctor DOOM]

amendments to these conclusions :

# 1- I dont agree that his "currect form" is anything bad.
In fact I'd say his club form is SUPERIOR to sadeghi's form and ando's form hands down.
yes, he may not be the kia of 2005. but that's neither here nor there. we're not replacing kia with kia-2005. we're replacing kia with ando, sadeghi, shojaei, .... etc.

# 4 - his club issue is irrelevant becoz his competitor at the club is NOT Iranain and hence while the chap may be better than kia, it does not mean kia's alternatives at TM are better than kia.

#5 - I didnt say "their characters dont match".
I said going by daei's character and what was going on at the time ( before and during the WC 06 ) and the news and tid-bits, one can allow for presence of some personal issues between daei and a few other players.

[gol_kuchik]

Thank you so much for all the time and effort you have put into this thread
Martin Reza jan to make sense of this issue.

To be honest, I hope Daei can be a lot more diplomatic on Kia issue.
Kia in my opinion *will* tell Daei if he is not physically ready or can't
give 100 percent like he did first round. Kia is not like young players at early
stages of their career who need the caps (already has 103). The real
benefit for Kia is the pride of contributing to TM, and if he can not do that he
wont play. Part of being a good coach is knowing when not to be too much
of a coach.


Kia must give an official statement like Rahman Rezai or Karim Bagheri (or
Daei himself), have made saying they want to retire from TM, before Daei can
cross him off. Deai can't simply not invite the man. We have a culture
and this borders disrespectful. This is the emotional end, which reasoning
alone can not address. Many fans including myself simply LOVE Kia for
what he has done not just for TM, but also as an Iranian player in Germany (and
I think he is still capable of doing) and he deserves better.


In conclusion, if the majority of people (almost 70%) believe Kia is left off of the
roster by Daei for personal reason, may be simply they are saying Daei has
completely mishandled the situation. At least thats why I casted my vote.

[kaz]

Kaz jan, can you post the links of any newspiece of Nilou or Nader adressing this issue? I know such issues can not always be backed up by sources on the net (much is insider info), but anything about this matter would help.

Nilou's posts on this matter were on the forum, so that would take some doing to find (26,000 posts), and the word-for-word depiction was said in private. I'll look for them though. Nader's are in his chronicles from the world cup and are easily found on his news site - in fact, have been posted many times here by myself and DD. Actually, Nader has said this around the forums too, IIRC.

http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=888
http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=897
http://footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=907

I am looking for Niloufar's articles but they are not archived well. I will ask her herself.

[maij]

Why are some of you providing negative arguments to justify your case ?

Kia is not the best shooter , but neither is anyone else?

Kia crosses are not accurate , but his is still better that all the team?

Kia is becoming old , But so was Daei while playing in TM?

Kia has raped a girl , so has a few hundred thousands filling prisons ?
(OK... this one is a joke , just in case some of you didn't realize it)

With such line of arguments , which is far from being Intellectual ,one can hardly reach any conclusion.

Two wrongs does not make a right.




I really don't think that we need to go so deep in Kia's argument. Simply put:
If Kia is in the team or the starting line-up , that is fine. If he is not there , I very much doubt that it has/will make huge difference on Team Melli.

We must move on, we need fresh legs , energy and mentality. Young names , player who are hungry , not multi millionaires. We need youth who can shine and if they stumble and fall , they rise once again and continue fighting.

We need fighters.


Frankly and all due respect to all that have made a case for Kia , and yes there are some good arguments , however NONE OF YOU have provided a definitive and solid case for his inclusion in my opinion.

[kaz]

Because, Kia is being compared to Gholamnejad, Teymourian, Sadeghi, etc, not Ronaldinho. So to say Kia is not the best, yet he is one of OUR best is not justification but a fair comparison.

And Kia is not good at crosses? Who said that? If Kia is not a good crosser then Ali Daei is still 20 years old.

Also, what does his private life have to do with this discussion?

And whether one or more of us have made a solid case is not a question of fact but opinion. I think we all knew we weren't going to change your opinion Majid khan.

[maij]

Yeah...people keep confusing facts with opinions.

So what ever kaz says is fact , whatever I say is an opinion.

Charming....

[kaz]

Yeah...people keep confusing facts with opinions.

So what ever kaz says is fact , whatever I say is an opinion.

Charming....

No, whatever is opinion is opinion and whatever is fact is fact. Kaz just likes facts more and than Majid does apparently .

[maij]

OK...Now Kaz in expert on Majeed

[Hadi]

I have no doubt whatsoever that under any circumstances, Mahdavikia is a head and shoulders above any other right back or right winger in Iran and his INCLUSION will in fact have a huge effect in our WCQ campaign. One free kick from Kia, one assist or one cross from Mahdavikia can change the outcome of the game for us.Frankly, Its insanity not to invite him.

Cant say the same about karimi though.

[Doctor DOOM]

I really don't think that we need to go so deep in Kia's argument. Simply put:
If Kia is in the team or the starting line-up , that is fine. If he is not there , I very much doubt that it has/will make huge difference on Team Melli.

We must move on, we need fresh legs , energy and mentality. Young names , player who are hungry , not multi millionaires. We need youth who can shine and if they stumble and fall , they rise once again and continue fighting.

We need fighters.

yes, we saw how the "fighters" have fared so far, and if we are fair, we shd admit they havent fared well at all.
it's not just about "fighting". put mirzapoor there and he'd fight as hard as the next fellow. so what ?

if you have to change the tyres of your rover, would you mind if instead of a regular tyre, they put a "wooden wheel" ?
it "rotates" afterall.
dont you want "rotation" only ?



=======================

I also hope you were kidding when you said his crosses arent good or .... .
compared to whom?
coz if you say that in defense of daei's choices ( as is the routine here ), then you may be requested to back it up with evidence that all/any of daei's choices' crosses are BETTER than kia's.
... which wouldnt be an outrageous request IMO. perfectly valid especially in kia's case

shall we compare sadeghi's, ando's and shojaei's crosses to kia's ?

=======================

and what IS this mysterious "definitive" argument?
we arent allowed to compare kia with his replacements ?

then shall we compare him to kia of 2005? perhaps that's the definitive argument?
or shall we compare him to schweinsteiger ?
or should we compare him to pele ? or maybe michael phelps ? or a tree ?

majid jan, comparing what we give to what we gain IS the definitive argument, ey baradar.

[Martin-Reza]

Majeed is very right, we should try to talk fair and not always be afraid of our words could be turned against us if we don't support our stance in every line.

There is a certain point dedicated to comparing Kia to the alternatives, this shouldn't be done in all other points, especially those preluding this issue.

Dr. Doom, I will try to make your proposed changes, I don't think I will do for 1) because that is what I was just talking about.

[Ali Chicago]

To be honest I don't see any benefits from the whole argument. Whoever is fully supporting Daie will point out the fact that he is the head coach and has the right to choose whoever he wants and try to question abilities of these two players in order to justify not inviting them. Daie critics will point out the acheivments of these players. This isn't a math question that is 2*2=4. We are dealing with human beings and their decisions which in nature is subjective.

My only comment is about the title of the thread. I am sure English is probably 3rd language of Martin. So the usage of word conspiracy I dont' think is right in this case. Conspiracy has a different meaning.

Bias IMO is the right word not conspiracy. No one is accusing the Daie for conspiracy. For all I know Daie is the head coach and he can select whoever he wants and doesn't need to be responsive to anyone, because at the end he is the one whose neck is on the line. To be honest, I think we are making too much of this.

IMO simple fact is Daie probably in a private setting won't deny the impact of players like Karimi or Kia. But he wants players that be "farmanbordar" basically accpet his full authroity without any questions. Someone who doesn't question Daie. Someone who think and act as if Daie knows the beset. To some degree it is undrestandable too. Now the dispute is at what level!???

To be honest this is an issue when a former player becomes the head coach. Remember when Kia was in Haumburg and that ex player became head coach of Hamuburg (forgot his name). There was an issue with many players didn't respect him to the level he wanted and to some degree that is undrestandable. Player who you are playing with all of a sudden becomes head coach and now u have to totally accept his full authroity. I am not saying this is right (not fully accepting the full authroity of a former player turned head coach), but many things aren't right, but still a reality. We are dealing with human, that isn't a logical creature, and has emotions.

[Martin-Reza]

Yeah, conspiracy doesn't fully fit, although if you look at it from the other side the allegations could actually be a conspiracy against Daei, although the title wasn't meant to mean that.

The main point is that people run around and talk about Daei's vendetta as if it was a fact. I wanted to get to the facts to find out who is concerned and what there actually is that backs up these claims, all in a structured way.