The Daei conspiracy, getting to the facts [Part 3] - MEHDI MAHDAVIKIA

[Ali Chicago]

.....Iran needs strong leadership , not a popular one , in order to acheive success in all fields.

Majid Jaan;

I am not that naive to not know about lack of professionalisem that you talk about. I lived 20smething in Iran myself as well.

Having said that, I think what you see (the attitude) is the effect not the cause. Why the person doesn't have self discipline? Because, he was never trusted, because the system was so khar to khar that the guy can get away with Murder even.

This culture of Gholdor parasti and we need a tough guy, is in a way contributing to this lack of individualisem and self discipline. Is essense we accept we need someone to "bekoobeh be farghe saremoon, ma adaam beshoo nistim".

See the current TM. Why we go far, comapre Azizi situation during Branko days (he not getting invited and how he handled it), with the current situation of the Kia and Karimi. Don't you see an improvement? See Nikbakht. Even in this same sheer to sheer condition in Iran, our players and teams and coaches are becoming better and improving. They need respect rather than being driven with the Iron feast.

I think you have mixed up the difference between being arbitrary and discipline. Arbitrariness is different from discipline. As an example see the issue with Kaabi situation in the KSA trip? To me it seems (assuming the news is right), the so called discpline for Mr. Daie is very loose and only applies when it serves him. He takes Kaabi with him to Saudie and even he comes back later than other TM players when his club needs him. I know IFF is partly to blame but for the love of god, if Kaabi is one of the starting players, Mr. Daie should have pushed IFF to inquire about this like 2 months ago. Despite that Kaabi is taken away from his club. Had he been principaled, he would have said, Kaabi is being paid by Saipa and right now can't play for the TM. Kaabi himself can go to the Haj Omreh ( I am sure he can handle the expenses). Whereas Mr. Daie insist he needs TM players 10 days before the KSA match. Don't you see a duality here?

[maij]

Yes Ali Jan...if there is improvement in respect to leadership , then it is certainly welcome and I am all for it, but let us not doge the main issue though....there is a long way to go, perhaps a new generation or one that follows.


About Kaebi's trip. I am only stating facts, here not my own opinion.

FIFA used to cancel the cautions ( but not the red cards) of players for the next stage. IFF thought the same will be practiced this time. TM coaches inquired about the situation and included Kaebi in the list. The answer came back too late.

My personal opinion now, I fault IFF for not pressing FIFA for an answer.

[maij]

Interesting article related to the type of coaching mentality:

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[Doctor DOOM]

^ very good article, majid jan.

I agree.

and I think one factor that explains his actions is "BLANK SLATE".
he started with a blank slate, not knowing almost anyone in Iran, not having any favorites, not having any enemies, or ... .
completely blank.

so chances are when he took the job , on his first day, all the players meant the same to him. nobody was better or worse than the other. he didnt feel more comfortable with this and less with that chap.


one thing I was hoping would happen with daei taking over, and in fact DID mention it in one of those early posts as soon as he was chosen was to believe he would wipe everything off and start with a blank slate at TM ! In fact I argued with bahram and a few others who said having his former team mates and all the baggage ( of WC especially ) will not sit well with the whole scenario of daei as TM coach. I defended him and never imagined he would bring in all that baggage along!
now? I feel I was talking about a very different person.


I believe had Clemente's deal gone through, we'd have the same attitude presiding at TM as well.
alas ..... !

[Paradigm]

Mahdavikia has not been as useful to TM since AC 2004 and much of it has to do with age and fitness. We have players for his position who have the similar speed and crossing abilities. But we do not have any good subs for the function Karimi is known for, which is dribbling 3-6 opposing players at one time. We need those like him with ball control abilities in cases that the team needs to have possession and also for the play-making abilities. With Mahdavikia in the field the game is like basketball, but with Karimi it resembles water polo (as far as having to draw analogies with the direction of the play.)

[kaz]

One thing that I am not sure of from your statement is how do you disengage "the coach's desires" from "TEAM's needs and fate."

You use a standard, of preferably a reasonable person.

Is it more likely that a coach has set aside an all-time Iranian great still in his prime because they had feud in the midst of a WC campaign, or is it more likely that Gholamnejad, who has thus far done and achieved nothing by comparison, who is not even amongst the best players in the league, is a better choice for the team?

[kaz]

What difference does it make if we made it to the World Cup with Khalili or without Hashemian???

What is the objective here ? for for Team Melli to succeed , I hope.

.... or are we suddenly more concerned with player X or player Y to be in the team.

Success should not be measured in absolutes. Whilst we may pass through qualifying with Sattar Zare at LB, that doesn't make him a very good LB does it? Or likewise, if we get through qualifying (which we should, considering how comparatively easy it is) with Khalili up front, does that make him better than Hashemian?

Will he be better suited to go against the best defenders in the world?

[Ali Chicago]

^....
now? I feel I was talking about a very different person.
.... !

Welcome to good side and the Enlightened camps!!! Do I hear an Amen!!!!

[Doctor DOOM]

Welcome to good side and the Enlightened camps!!! Do I hear an Amen!!!!

come on , matey.
none of you could have been sure of such a turn-around.

Ali daei , the player, was one of the most patriotic players we've ever had. who jeopardized his lucrative career in germany just to serve Iranian nat'l team.
he could have done what VH does usually; pick and choose when to come and when not to come, depending on his free time w the club.

he also always said the TEAM comes before the individual.
( it is this one sentence that I feel betrayed !!! )
he was always ready to serve the team.

so it was hard to imagine such a man would bring his personal matters into the equation.

[Ali Chicago]

come on , matey.
none of you could have been sure of such a turn-around.
Ali daei , the player, was one of the most patriotic players we've ever had. who jeopardized his lucrative career in germany just to serve Iranian nat'l team.
he could have done what VH does usually; pick and choose when to come and when not to come, depending on his free time w the club.
he also always said the TEAM comes before the individual.
( it is this one sentence that I feel betrayed !!! )
he was always ready to serve the team.
so it was hard to imagine such a man would bring his personal matters into the equation.

Payman Jaan;

First of all my comment was a joke, Hence the smilies and all that, so don't read too much into it Paymaan jaan.

About the bolded part of your post, let say I have reservations, when it came for him to play in the TM and acheiving the so called recored of most goal scorer in the world, he did anything he could to play in the TM (which I dont' blame him) but it doesn't quite agree with the above statement of yours.

Secondly, being patriotic is one thing and being boneheaded another thing. One can be a patriotic bonehead. Based on the behavior of Daie (playing in the TM when everything showed his performance was declining and many others) it wasn't hard to see the claim about past is past is hard to be taken seriously from him. Of course everything is possible but let say have different level of possibilities (in this case not much I would say).

You yourself for example seem to have an aptitutude for critical thinking (which is considered a positive attribue in my book and in the west in general btw), so based on the this info, I can with some level of accuracy, predict your attitude toward certain events in the future. Based on the past behavior of other members in the F+ one can do the same.

Again, I dont' question Daie's patriotisem or anything ( depsite all my criticisem toward him, I always admired his devoution to the TM during WC2002 qualification), but I didn't have any doubt (ok very little doubt) we will get to this place (Daie's issues with the old timers and WC2006 drama) sooner or later in the TM. Why we look in the past, sooner or later TM will have one or two bad games (that doesn't mean I wish for it or looking forward to it btw, but it is a reality, every football team will have good, great or bad days) and you will see the all this bottled up anger against Mr. Daie will come to the surface.

[RaginG Inferno]

Great thread, thanks MR. Instead of some haphazard analysis, the structure with which you provided the discussion is helpful.

[maij]

Great thread, thanks MR. Instead of some haphazard analysis, the structure with which you provided the discussion is helpful.

Regrettably , that is what is happening quite a lot.

[Martin-Reza]

Yes, actually the structure is merely ignored, as is the whole post by most apart from a handful.

After having some structure in the beginning, it was totally lost and is now one of many in which there is talk about this and that without any structure. I think it's time to abandon this project. The outcome is rather poor, at least we could identify the three "victims".

[Ali Chicago]

Great thread, thanks MR. Instead of some haphazard analysis, the structure with which you provided the discussion is helpful.

Yes, actually the structure is merely ignored, as is the whole post by most apart from a handful.

After having some structure in the beginning, it was totally lost and is now one of many in which there is talk about this and that without any structure. I think it's time to abandon this project. The outcome is rather poor, at least we could identify the three "victims".

Can you guys explain what do you mean your above comments? Of course thread will go to this and this and that, since none of us has like a note that indicates Daie told to someone or wrote somewhere, he does't invite X or Y cause he hate their guts. Or on the other hand Daie supporters showed a methodical analysis by the TM coaching staff or at least some logical explanations in the paper why Kia wasn't invited.

When there is no hard core proof, issues will be diverted.

Daie critics don't have proof and neither you have a proof. Like any other thing we see a set of events and then interpret the events based on our own mental bias. Both camps do the same. So i am really confused with the so called structure. Since Martin opened the first thread, it was always about Karimi, Kia and to a lesser degree about Mobali, to be honest we didnt' need three threads to narrow down the list. As I said over and over, this threads won't bear any fruits (since no proof can be obtained).

If I am missing any point please explain.

[Doctor DOOM]

and to add to Ali's post, I must say Martin has a lot to work with, in this thread.

I dont know what you guys mean by saying you didnt get enough info or opinion or material to work with. I actually see a lot to work with.

but as is with any other thread that doesnt get closed, if you keep a thread open long enough, you run the risk of seeing the issue getting spread and other matters creep in. that's but natural. so to actually feign surprise is a bit amusing here. show me one thread that has maintained its original purpose and strict structre after page 3 or 4.


martin wanted the opinion of various members on the issue of exclusion of Kia from team. and quite a few were offered.
we apologize if the answers werent what some of you "liked". but to call it haphazzard ? that's rich !
why?
becoz whether you like the ansers or not, there WERE answers offered and debated.

in many other issues, when some ppl are asked, all they offer is series of diversions, dodging and baseless claims that if asked for backing up, are left up in the air. I'm sure you want examples. for example, "kia's supposed poor crossing ability" or "mobaali's supposed bad attitude" or .... to name a few.
uh uh, brother. many of you DONT get to point fingers at others.

so I'd say martin does have something to work with now.