What do you prefer? [Old Thread Revisited]

[Hajagha]

I can read between the lines that Martin wonders why Daei excluded Kia from the squad. As I watched him before, he is the old dude we knew, nothing special.

Back the question, in your defense line, you don't want any uncertainty, any offensive attitude is a plus then.

Cheers

[Ali Chicago]

Been following the thread and tried to keep my mouth shut, but to be honest this whole point is mute (Kaabi comparison with Kia) based on the game Martin watched.


To me there are two factors one needs to consider in order to do this comparison that Martin is talking about, I try to list them here. The two are somewhat interrelated.
1-Duties assigned to the player by coach in a game
2- The so called Tacticpaziri of the player who plays based on what he was wanted from him by the coach.

First of all, whether Kia took chances or not, that to a high degree depends on the what was the duties that was assigned to him by the coach. As a defender in an organized league, you are not supposed to take any risk whatsoever in your own defensive third or middle third and since he was a defender, I can see why he wouldn't' take any risk (risk isn't just dribbling the opponents, a bad tackle and giving up a free kick close to the goal or getting yellows is a risk as well).

Kaabi never played at such a high level, so until Kaabi plays at a similar level (same pace, same tactical complexity) one can't compare these two.

There is a second element here that is the major difference between the IPL and Iranian players who play in Iran in general and a player who plays in the Bundesliga which is the following:

One of the key missing elements in our player's arsenal is their lack of following the team tactic and coach's plan. To a large degree this isn't their fault because most of them haven't come through an organized professional soccer program, so improvising is a big element in our player arsenal. This improvisation at times is good and adds an elements of surprise to our team but in large part ties the coaches hand. Coach wants something and tell the player something but players (sub consciously) does something else that he is used to.

[Martin-Reza]

Thanks to all who responded.

This is not just about Kia vs. Kaebi which seems to be loaded with personal feelings for many.

Kia is overall playing more conservatively these days. Less risks, less mistakes. You could also take a rightwing position and compare Kia to Shojaei, the letter surely going into one-on-one duels more often but surely causing more turnovers.

What is interesting is that we have a bit of a contradiction here. It is mentioned Kia has more quality than Kaebi, Kaebi taking much more risks (or at least being a more risky player) and taking less risks is better in defense. Now one would expect that Kia should then be prefered over Kaebi and especially for the rightback post. However, there seems to be consent that Kaebi is the better RB choice. Interesting.

And to Ali jan ^.

I don't think the coach can exactly tell the player how much risk to take. Of course in the defending third there is no risk wanted, but the coach expects a player to decide on his own when he takes risks and when he doesn't and to be successful with that. While he won't be happy with a player trying to dribble or going for a risky throughball every single time he is in possession, he certainly will also not be impressed by a player who almost exclusively plays square- or backpasses.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- As afshin said, kaabi's best performances are mostly when he has played with kia. which means having an experienced player whp can take care of half the duties of attacking and defending on the right side, thus not forcing kaabi to over-compensate for the shortcomings of the player in front of him.

Kia has always done well in both offense and defense, which allows kaabi to flourish and play with a certain confidence and insurance.

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2- kaabi has never played in an organized, structured pro league for us to measure him against kia.
as Ali said, kia belongs to that category of players who are versatile and can adapt to the coach's tactics well. and if the coach tells him to play conservatively and not to take risks ... well that's what he'll do.

kaabi has always played in inorganized football leagues, hence not much structure or organization. to play whatever and however you feel like is much easier in such environment.

if kaabi had played in a euro league, then we'd have seen how he adapts or can satisfy the duties required of him.
the closest thing we have of him in an organized atmosphere is that he didnt cut it ! and was sent back home. that shd answer any doubts we have about the two.

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and frankly I dont see this constant groping for any reason to justify kia's absence at TM.
there's absolutely no reason whatsoever.
we dont have his type of players at TM. his replacements are failing.
he has said it many times he's ready to come and help TM.

any sane person can put 2 and 2 together and say everything is ready for kia's return.
if he's not called, then the problem does NOT lie in anything technical or tactical.
it's all personal.

[Doctor DOOM]

daei has said "kia is one of the best" in today's training and peykan game.
ok.
here's the point that many of us were making in the last months when kia wasnt called:
nothing has changed in kia's situation at frankfurt. he's still a sub there. and he's recuperated from his injury a long time ago.
so daei not calling him based on "him being a sub, therefore he's not in form" was wrong and was proven wrong when kia arrived and showed he's still useful at TM.

I am sure had kia been called for ksa game, while he was a sub at frankfurt much like present time, he'd have still showed good form at TM camp and would have helped TM in that game.

so you see, that obscure reasoning by daei & his excuse of "sub = no good" is and was wrong to begin with.
I hope daei's learnt something from all this.

[Martin-Reza]

You're always taking out a small part of the whole picture. The reasoning was Kia didn't fit into the tactical plan against KSA. His form was just part of the picture as it, in my opinion, did not force the coach to adapt the system in order to fit Kia in.

The keyplayers and other circumstances determine the system, the rest is then fit in afterwards. Kia's form didn't make him a keyplayer and a tactical plan not suiting him was selected for the game in Riyadh. Now a tactical plan was probably again chosen without Kia playing a role in dtermining it, but this time he fit in, probably because of the difference in opposition or whatever tactical plans the coaching stuff developed specifically for DPR.

And of course Daei is saying nice things about him, is he supposed to say, "holy shit, this man has declined in recent years" to the media or what?

[Mr.Good]

And of course Daei is saying nice things about him, is he supposed to say, "holy shit, this man has declined in recent years" to the media or what?

I think this is the whole point. Martin-Reza nailed it here.
when Karimi was excluded from the squad in the first round of WCQ, on a TV interview, Daei also said that Karimi was one of the best Irannian footballers ever, and still he excluded him from the squad.

[Doctor DOOM]

LOL.
whatever that justifies daei's peculiar words/deeds, eh?

[Martin-Reza]

lol, whatever puts him down, eh?

[Doctor DOOM]

not putting him down.

just pointing out at the silly & empty statements/justifications for not calling up kia previously. that's all.

and if you think daei's just saying it and he cant say "oh sh*t kia's form is abysmal actually", well, I think YOU will get YOUR answer when kia walks onto the field ... coz no coach, in his proper mind, would use a player with crappy form in a WCQ's ... or would he????

[Martin-Reza]

There is a lot between crappy and outstanding.

And also falsely quoting Daei and always leaving things out that don't correspond with your view doesn't make Daei's statements look silly but rather yours.

Have you suddenly forgotten Daei having said Kia doesn't fit into the tactical concept for KSA? I guess not, so I wonder why you really think it's necessary to twist facts.

[Mr.Good]

This is exactly like comments made in the US presidency campaigns,
they take one candidates comment out of contest and blow it up.

poor daei, whatever he says or does, he is always wrong.

[Doctor DOOM]

Have you suddenly forgotten Daei having said Kia doesn't fit into the tactical concept for KSA? I guess not, so I wonder why you really think it's necessary to twist facts.

actually no.
I have not forgotten that peculiar statement.
especially in the light of what actually happened to our right flank during the game , and how ineffectual and impotent it became

I asked the question then and I repeat it here:
( lets remember ksa was NOT brazil and we're not guam)
what kind of tactics we were talking about that entails making our right flank so ineffective?
where in the world such tactics are drawn?
which coach does that?

so is that a silly and curious remark by daei?
hell yes.
and we all witnessed how it turned out in the game with our own eyes.


I think daei needs to be a wiser statesman or at least run his words by someone before making them. especially in the emotionally charged environment of Iranian football. we shd expect more from daei as our nat'l team coach. lets hope he can overcome his sensitivities and emotions soon.

[Martin-Reza]

Ok, that is a different issue, but claiming the exclusion solely was based on lack of form does not reflect what Daei said.

As for the tactics making the "flanks so ineffective" as you said, it is the 4-4-2 diamond and lots of coaches use that one. I think we have discussed this enough already.

[Doctor DOOM]

you talk about the "theory" of using a diamond 4-4-2.
I'm talking about what practically happened during the game.

on paper many things can be said.
But I doubt ANY coach in their right mind would eliminate a whole flank off their team. and that is what happened to us. no width, no strategy for the right flank, ... .

we could have well been playing like :

----------- gk -----------------

RB ------ CB ---- Cb ------- LB

---------- CM----------------

----------CM---------- LM

-----------CM-----------

-------- st----st--------

yes, it certainly did look like this absrud formation where the right flank was nonexistent due to using defensive mids in that spot , who didnt do jack along the line !