What do you prefer? [Old Thread Revisited]

[Martin-Reza]

Actually there was no LM either as long as Zandi was there, who was also LCM. So if you shift the fourth line of your lineup slightly to the left (or rather to the right side of the team as it is bottom up) and rename LM to CM you basically have the static basic formation. With the introduction of Madanchi we then had a flat four in midfield with Shojaei on the right and Teymourian joining Nekounam in center. This was then changed again to the very risky 4-1-3-2 when Teymourian was sacrificed for OM Jabbari. We were lucky and it paid off.

1)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
-----------Teymourian------Zandi--------------
----------------------Shojaei---------------------
----------------Rezaei----------------------------
---------------------------Hashemian------------

2)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
----------Teymourian------Nekounam-----------
Shojaei---------------------------------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------

3)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Shojaei--------------Jabbari-----------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------


If we look at the selected players and the lineups used against Paykan it might well be we will start with a similar system to 3) against Korea DPR, which would be very risky.

[Doctor DOOM]

yes, you are right. zandi hardly did much on the left flank and as usual was drifting to the middle
THAT'S WHY WE PROVED SO INCAPACITATED ON THE LEFT AS WELL AS THE RIGHT.

and with madanchi's inclusion .... or for better explanation, I must say with introduction of WIDTH into the team on the left, our left became alive and the opponents were stretched.
something that NEVER happened on the right, coz unsuitable players were forced to play on that side.

[RaginG Inferno]

actually no.
I have not forgotten that peculiar statement.
especially in the light of what actually happened to our right flank during the game , and how ineffectual and impotent it became

I asked the question then and I repeat it here:
( lets remember ksa was NOT brazil and we're not guam)
what kind of tactics we were talking about that entails making our right flank so ineffective?
where in the world such tactics are drawn?
which coach does that?

so is that a silly and curious remark by daei?
hell yes.
and we all witnessed how it turned out in the game with our own eyes.


I think daei needs to be a wiser statesman or at least run his words by someone before making them. especially in the emotionally charged environment of Iranian football. we shd expect more from daei as our nat'l team coach. lets hope he can overcome his sensitivities and emotions soon.

Well, if your view is correct, then shouldn't you be happy that Daei has now invited Mahdavikia?

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, if your view is correct, then shouldn't you be happy that Daei has now invited Mahdavikia?

absolutely.
I've made that perfectly clear.

what I questioned, however, was the peculiar excuses cooked up for not calling kia the last time.

[Martin-Reza]

3)
----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Gholamnejad--Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Shojaei--------------Jabbari-----------Madanchi
---------------Khatibi-----Hashemian------------


If we look at the selected players and the lineups used against Paykan it might well be we will start with a similar system to 3) against Korea DPR, which would be very risky.

Interestingly Daei really took the risk and started with a system were similar to this.

----------------------Rahmati--------------------
Kaebi-----------Hosseini---Aghili-----------Zare
---------------------Nekounam------------------
Mahdavikia----------Jabbari-------------Shojaei
------------------Rezaei---------------------------
------------------------Hashemian----------------

I wonder if he will take similar risks in UAE or will add a second DM/CM to Nekounam, which he surely will do for the homegames against Korea Rep. and KSA.

Generally I want to add that this system shouldn't be confused with the 4-4-2 diamond. Other than in the diamond-midfield the four midfielders in the 4-1-3-2 are arranged in a way that there is width thanks to two real wingers in addition to a central offensive midfielder, on the cost of much space in the crucial area in front of the centerhalves as the sole DM has neither support from a second DM nor by two CMs as in the diamond.

I, however, noticed that the two wingers tried to defend a bit like the two CMs in a diamond, but since they are no central players there was still too much space in center, also considering Jabbari did not work back like a CM. So Nekounam did an awesome job covering this area basically alone.

[Mr.Good]

I noticed that also, that was risky, and I think this was one of the reasons Nekounam did not seems to be playing good.
Jabbari also did not help much in defense. and that had a big toll on Nekounam.
when I was watching the game live I was thinking why Jabbari got subbed and not Shojaei (since he was not playing that well also), but then when I watched the second time I noticed that Jabbari was barley involved in the game after our second goal. he seems not to have good fitness.
I was also expecting another central midfielder or defensive midfielder after our second goal, but then Zandi came in. I think Daei wanted to maintain possession rather than destroying opponents game. I think that was risky also. since many of our players could not keep the same fast tempo of the first half.

I don't think Daei will take the same risk against UAE. UAE has few players that are technically gifted and can run circles around our defense. They also have the finishing ability.

[Martin-Reza]

^ Very good analysis, I totally agree. I also expected Daei to bring a defensive midfielder for the more and more invisible Jabbari, but I think his plan to remain in control was correct, although it didn't really work out.

[Martin-Reza]

I know this is an old thread, but I found this in an Eintracht Frankfurt Blog about Mahdavikia's most recent performance (kicker grade 5, which means bad) which fits to this topic:

http://www.fr-online.de/top_news/167...ngsschlag.html

Translation:

Martin Fenin was sent to the left wing and Mehdi Mahdavikia seemingly forbidden to play a single pass forward.

Although I think he is underrated (I saw most of the game), as he is one of the few with good technique and overview and barely ever causes turnovers while the others lose a lot of balls, I again must agree he is barely taking any risks anymore. He seems to have lost his speed and therefore barely ever goes for solo runs, and his passes, almost without exceptions, are squareballs or backpasses.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ I dont see why we shd take ONE game and ONE statement as gospel and rule that since Kia wasnt adventurous in his German club, he would be useless in IRAN !!

even if he's lost his pace, he's speedy enough for the likes of shojaei or g-nejad. as for his other attributes like crossing and passing, he is better than the players we're currently using at TM.
if he's not adventurous enough for the germans, in Iran, his level and standards are high enough. And I'm sure in Iran, he is more resposnsible and more commanding on the pitch and acts more daring. testament of his goal against N korea where he was found in the middle of the korean's defense.

sorry, but I dont see how relevant it is to the plight of TM's right side.

[Martin-Reza]

^ I wouldn't say someone not "adventurous" enough for Germany is still adventurous enough for Iran. Actually our players usually take much more risk than Germans, who are much more afraid of turnovers. I agree that we are not on German standards in most aspects of the game and that Kia is superior to all alternatives in some of those aspects, but in risk taking (which isn't necessarily a positive thing) we are surely not behind them.

Kia has become a solid player, almost mistakeless but almost without any surprising offensive actions. Maybe that comes from lacking match praxis mostly, but the way he repeatedly played for Frankfurt I must say I am on one hand worried that he won't be able to impress his coach like that and on the other hand must say he is not the player TM needs when desperately looking for a goal. If it's about keeping posession and avoiding turnovers, in this shape he's the man, but for creating trouble in the opponent's defense I have understanding for a coach who relies on younger players for that.

And this is not just about one game. As you can see I already noticed this last year, repeatedly noticed it since then, noticed it again on Saturday and quite obviously other people are seeing it like that also.

[zzgloo]

Martin jaan....I still do not know the thrust of your thread.......Is it a question in general ?, or is it about Kia ?
Kia to me, has become a family man, and enjoys his life in frankfurt and celebrity status......he very much goes to work, now a days, to " Punch in & punch out " !!!.......he No longer gets excited as much any more.
I can n't believe myself saying this...But his time with TM has gone by !
...................

But,if we talk in general.......that quality for a deffensive player and a goal keeper is a +, but is not so, for other positions.

[Martin-Reza]

^ I agree pretty much with what you are saying (generally and about Kia), although I wouldn't go as far as saying Kia's TM career is or should be over, but he is no must-starter anylonger, or at least currently.

The thread is both about the general question what's better and Kia's case in specific as well. The reason this is not solely about Kia is, that one can argue about the strength of the alternatives, one sees them as good players, the next one thinks they suck and argues that regardless of how bad Kia could play, he'd still be better than those alternatives. So beside the Kia issue, the general question is interesting as well.

[Doctor DOOM]

to make my stance clear on Kia, I'll just say this:

If we find a suitable alternative who DOES what kia does with similar quality, precision & frequency, I'm all for keeping kia on the bench.
But the only player I can think of who has the capability & skills to do that is on Daei's black list ( kazemian ) . and all ...I mean ALL the alternatives we've seen at TM under daei have been sub-par and inferior to Kia.

hell, if g-nejad could slowly learn to use the opponents' 1/3 well and give some width to the team and gets to cross frequently and with precision, I dont see why he shdnt be kept. But the fact is he hasnt done any of the above ... either properly or frequently enough.
hence the question mark remains and we still bring up Kia's name!

apart from g-nejad who may still have the potential, others like ando, sadeghi, shojaei, zareh havent come even close to kia's standards and work rate!
heidari is a good option too. But he hasnt been trusted either !!

-------------

and I dotn just say "they suck".
I look for different tasks and see how they perform those tasks and then give the opinion.

g-najed, while knowing how to defend and may cover this task well, he comes up short in crossing, and use of pitch.
ando, even worse than g-najed.
sadeghi did none of the tasks properly either.
shojaei can pass and his forward moves may be fine, but his defending is sub-par.
this is why none of the alternatives have been able to fill his gap and we still need someone like kia ( if not kia ) to play in RM.

[Martin-Reza]

What about Khalatbari as replacement?

[Doctor DOOM]

^ you know as well as anyone else a player like khalatbari would serve the team best when he is behind the two strikers as an offensive mid.

his flanks job hasnt been adequate. he rarely crosses and his defending isnt good enough. a typical offensive mid kind of player.