MIDFIELDERS in Iran

[maij]

[Doctor DOOM]

thanks to both Majid jan and shayan jan for their contributions.

Note:
since I assume majid jan didnt see my question on the definition or purpose of "discipline" , I'm going to assume we ought to consider BOTH TACTICAL as well as BEHAVIORAL discipline of the players. would I be correct, majid jan?

============================

writing your scores down on the chart, I couldnt help wonder about a few issues.

like in majid jan's scoring of players' "CROSSING", you have given a player like sadeghi a score of 8 ( highest score u've given to any player ) while to KIA, u've given a 6 ( LOWEST score of the whole group )!!!

is that truly your opinion that sadeghi crosses that much better than kia ?



and I hope shayan didnt bring in the "sepahan" factor when scoring its present or ex players

[zzgloo]

I believe, statistics and quantification is all fine....but, our mind, is a fabioules thing, and it does everything at the same time for us !!!
.................................................. .................................................. ...........



Class A = Nekunam....Mahdavikia

Class B= Shojaee....Karimi

Class C= Zandi......Navidkia

Class D= Ando.......Mobali

Class F= Hajsafi.....Madanchi

Class G= Jabari......Rahmati

Class H= Sadeghi....My Dokhtarkhaleh !

[Martin-Reza]

I think the categories are chosen incorrectly. For example all offensive duties or qualities are split into 6-10 groups while defensive duties and qualities are summed up into one category (with just 2 or 3 more also applying to defense, like heading ability or stamina). One major category, the speed of decision making, is completely ignored.

That is why I doubt this whole rating makes sense. Not to talk about the sense of comparing Jabbari to Mahdavikia or Sadeghi to Hajsafi.

[maij]

like in majid jan's scoring of players' "CROSSING", you have given a player like sadeghi a score of 8 ( highest score u've given to any player ) while to KIA, u've given a 6 ( LOWEST score of the whole group )!!!

is that truly your opinion that sadeghi crosses that much better than kia ?

Obviously , you did not watch Saipa's last game and watched the inch perfect cross by Sadeghi while he was on a run for Traoure to score....but then again , I will excuse you for that

[Doctor DOOM]

I think the categories are chosen incorrectly. For example all offensive duties or qualities are split into 6-10 groups while defensive duties and qualities are summed up into one category (with just 2 or 3 more also applying to defense, like heading ability or stamina). One major category, the speed of decision making, is completely ignored.

That is why I doubt this whole rating makes sense. Not to talk about the sense of comparing Jabbari to Mahdavikia or Sadeghi to Hajsafi.

that is becoz if you read the first 2-3 posts, you'd have understood the purpose is to find the best midfielders excluding the DEFENSIVE MIDS ( nekuonam and ando ). which would mean I'm looking for mids who can play the various positons of central, flank, wing, offensive, and playmaker.
and except rahmati, the rest have been used in all the above-mentioned positions at TM in recent times.

why leave out defensive mids? well, I started on the presumption that we have two very good def mids in nekounam and ando as long as they are used in this position. and I dont think there are many who'd say these two arent the best we have for the spot.
is there anyone?

----------

2- in fact I DID think about "speed of decision making". but since it isnt well defined, I'll wait for you to define it, so I can add to the list.
why it isnt well defined and why I was doubtful?
becoz this is not wholly and entirely based on the player's ability.
to quickly give a pass, the player ought to have other FREE players to pass the ball to.

how do you rate a player's decision making if he is ready to pass quickly but his mates arent free ?
what does a player do then?
obviously he'll hold onto the ball a bit longer or even try to dribble or ... .
would you rate the player low becoz his mates didnt create space and free themselves, to recieve a quick pass?

so if you can define it in personal terms, meaning removing the outside factors, I'll be glad to add it.

[Doctor DOOM]

majid jan, you want to take ONE cross and use that as norm?
how about we see how many such crosses have come off sadeghi in the past 8-10 TM games ?
if you reach a number above 2, I'll change my name.

and besides, if we want to use ONE cross to make our point, well then, kia has had 10 perfect crosses for every 1 of sadeghi's. and every player has had at least ONE perfect shot (mirzapoor scored a goal ), one perfect dribble ( daei dribbled an iraqi ), one perfect tackle, one perfect ... etc.
But from someone who came up with the valid point of "consistency", such examples are surprising.

you do understand your scores are like someone giving daei a score of 6 while giving azizi an 8 for HEADING ABILITY, just becoz azizi , once, scored off a header in ACL !

aside from that, I think you're bringing in other matters that arent related to the thread. otherwise, going by your "sadeghi's cross" example, I'd expect you to give kia a perfect score of 10 for shooting ( remember kia's thunderous shot against china ?).

I was hoping this doesnt end up in ppl trying to "make a point" , rather than having an idea of capabilities of players X, Y, Z irrespective of our stance, club affiliations, arguments, ..... .
if we cant leave all that un-related baggage outside the thread, then plz let me know so I wont waste my time with gathering numbers and charts ...

[maij]

majid jan, you want to take ONE cross and use that as norm?
how about we see how many such crosses have come off sadeghi in the past 8-10 TM games ?
if you reach a number above 2, I'll change my name.

and besides, if we want to use ONE cross to make our point, well then, kia has had 10 perfect crosses for every 1 of sadeghi's. and every player has had at least ONE perfect shot (mirzapoor scored a goal ), one perfect dribble ( daei dribbled an iraqi ), one perfect tackle, one perfect ... etc.
But from someone who came up with the valid point of "consistency", such examples are surprising.

you do understand your scores are like someone giving daei a score of 6 while giving azizi an 8 for HEADING ABILITY, just becoz azizi , once, scored off a header in ACL !

aside from that, I think you're bringing in other matters that arent related to the thread. otherwise, going by your "sadeghi's cross" example, I'd expect you to give kia a perfect score of 10 for shooting ( remember kia's thunderous shot against china ?).

I was hoping this doesnt end up in ppl trying to "make a point" , rather than having an idea of capabilities of players X, Y, Z irrespective of our stance, club affiliations, arguments, ..... .
if we cant leave all that un-related baggage outside the thread, then plz let me know so I wont waste my time with gathering numbers and charts ...

Of course not , but then again , if we want to go into the nitty gritty of things , how about you qualifying your marks in a statistical manner so it takes some credibility , rather than guts feeling.

You set the rules and provided the example , so you might as well carry it all the way and show the others how scoring should be done or based on. I for one , am willing to amend the scores based on your explanations and guideline.


If there is a point that I wanted to make , Peyman jan. Is that the way it stands , we lack real statistics and data on the players. You probably see PP or SS players every week , but you don't have this luxury about others , so your marks and evaluation are flawed or let us say unfair to non PP & SS players.
But even watching the match , I doubt that many will be in the evaluating mood to come up with some points.


And then the question of ABILITY vs. DELIVERY that I have already mentioned or warned against. How would you mark a player that you KNOW that has the ability to put in some perfect crosses with his club , but cannot deliver in Team Melli or at crucial matches ?

If your answer is you will NOT rate him high , then the whole evaluation fundementals should change , because we are not really now talking about some skills but performance.

[Doctor DOOM]

well, assessing the abilities or delivery of the newer players is more difficult than the older ones. simply becoz we HAVE enough examples and instances to form an opinion of the more known players like kia, karimi, .... .

secondly there are matters that stand out when we talk about some of the players and they have been these players' trademark or what they are famous for. like daei's heading, or bagheri's shooting, or karimi's dribbling and kia's crossing.
we know these guys are quite capable in those aspects. a game below or a game above the standard doesnt change anything. there is consistency in there.

but consistency is hard to prove in case of some other players that despite having a marvelous shot here, or a fantastic dribble there or an incredible cross, they arent and havent been able to repeat that with any frequency.
even I have had at least one pin point cross. does that make me a good crosser of the ball ? hell no. coz I cant repeat it with any frequency and consistently.

it's difficult to come up with a "statistic" on daei's heading or bagheri's shooting or karimi's dribbling or kia's crossing. but we still agree daei's heading was pretty top notch and bagheri's shooting is pretty good and ... .
just as we have seen enough of kia's crossing ( accuracy and frequency ) to know his crossing is top notch.

but we have not seen even average accuracy or even acceptable frequency in sadeghi's crossing at TM. which begs the question how he scores so high in your crossing category.
surely it cant be based on one incident. as it shd not be.

[Martin-Reza]

@ DD, still also offensive midfield positions require defensive skills, and not just one out of a dozen categories dedicated to that. Also the problem of defining decision making speed is one also applying to many other categories, how can you cross well when you have no strikers with any heading ability close to you? How can you pass well at all when noone is moving into the correct spaces?

I believe the selection of categories is nice for a fan, but would very amateurish for any expert or professional coach. That is why only a distorted picture can be drawn according to these categories. I know it would have taken lots of time, but defining the categories together or letting them define by an expert (or taking them out from publications) would have been better.

I think your selection alone shows why we barely ever agree. Our view on football is just too different.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- hello. I AM a "fan" . not a coach.

2- a cross can be very nicely done irrespective of what the striker does with it... as long as it creates a DANGER.
and if one crosses where there are NO mates around, well then that is not such a good cross to begin with.

3- I did say we all can add to the category. but as long as it is not micro managed & dissected into 15 different items.
more like an over-view of the duty. I'm sure we can dissect shooting, passing, heading, .... into various sub-categories also. but we ought to be able to sum up all and give a single score to the category.

[zzgloo]

Payman Jaan.................
I believe, quantification of midfielders' abilities ,is like finding a " Wife ", based on her Hight,cooking,dancing,..etc.....
While, all abilities are important, but the " Head "and the " mind " that posses these abilities are far more important.

There is a term, used in NFL, which you probably know, that coaches use to call thier best players with......this term is used , for players whom fans and coaches look up the most, and expect the most from....
The term is called : " PLAY MAKER ".....
Being play maker , is not about those quantifications...it is about the player's mind, killer instinct,and intelegence, and " will " !!!
.................................................. ....................................
PS, In My humble opinion....through out our history.....only four players stand out in my mind as " Top play makers "...

1-Hassan Roshan
2-Ali Daei
3-Ali Parvin
4-Mehdi Mahdavikia.

[Doctor DOOM]

daei, playmaker ?
I dont think even rowshan or kia are playmakers.

of the list, I can only see parvin being one.

I guess we have different definitions of "playmaker"

[zzgloo]

daei, playmaker ?
I dont think even rowshan or kia are playmakers.

of the list, I can only see parvin being one.

I guess we have different definitions of "playmaker"

Yes we do !
I did explain my defenition previously.