TM selection for North Korea game

[Ali Chicago]

.....
Like I said , it seems we have different ideas on this subject , mine is the interest of Team Melli , yours is the ego of one star.

Agha Majid, Karimi isn't my Pesar Khaleh and if he didnt' have the ability to change the outcome of the game, I could care less about his ego. Football is the game of 1/100 of the seconds and games are won and lost by just that. See PP and SS game and role that Karimi played. So please stop this twisting the words that supposedly "I am only concerned about the ego of a superstar". What makes you think you have the monopoly of caring the most about the TM?

In all our discussions I never allowed to myself to question your sense of patriotisem and love for Iran, despite I beleive the decision that you support will have dire consequences for the Iranian football. We aren't 18 year old emotional boys. Let's keep things in perspective, please no more of this.

The same supposedly egotestical guy that I supposedly care so much about is the main reason Iran beat South Korea 4-3 in the Asian cup of 2004 in China. And had a huge role in our third place finish that year. Why are we so ghadr nashnas?


Yes Agha Majid, you are the SAINT from seventh heaven that only care about the TM!!!! I am just whatever you say. Who is protecting the ultimate interest of the TM? Those who drove Karimi to here? Those who didn't stand against the unreasonable treatment of a superstar by the stupid IFF (for a simple interview) and after that they chose to not stand against our honorable head coach "Farmayeshat and Efazat" " like Karimi has no clubs, I haven't seen him play". Boy did Karimi respond or did he?

If god forbid TM doesn't do well, then we will see who had the ultimate interest of the TM. Those who bet all their money on the purly arbitrary actions of an IFF and a single man, or those who times and times said, a super start needs to be treated like a superstar. Football is the game of 1/10 of a seconds and doogh va dooshab aren't the same. I have experienced this personally, there are certain players who are "IMPACT" players. Certain players like Ebi Sadeghi, Ando and many others in the TM while talented are replaceable easily. Someone like Karimi isn't. Even on the days that Karimi doesn't have a good day, he pulls one or two players from the other team and that will create time and space for other TM players. Karimi is an IMPACT player, same way that in 1 second, Azizi scored that goal and Iran went to the France98 and Australia didnt' although they clearly were the better team.

You are right, you are 100 times more Iranian than me and always know what is best for the TM. Support the arbitrary actions of the head coach, wish you and Mr. Daie all the success.

[Martin-Reza]

^ No offense Ali jan, but I also have the feeling you are putting a player above the team. And due to your love for this player you ignore that he has been on a heavy downfall and it was very legitimate not to nominate him for a crucial qualifier in Saudi Arabia when he was struggling to find a club and great alternatives were available.

That is no personal insult to Karimi but absolutely legitimate and necessary. What you also seem to forget when you talk about failures from both Daei and Karimi is that Daei is Karimi's boss and therefore they are not equal "counterparts" who have to agree. Daei decides and Karimi has to follow, unless Daei does something personal to Karimi which he surely didn't when excluding him when he was out of club action.

Just like with Azizi, former achievements do not mean a player always has to be selected years later. That is why I think Karimi's decision was good for Iranian football. Although he could still be useful currently, I think this will change soon but for years to come the Karimi issue would have created hashiyeh around TM and it's good that he put an end to it before it really started.

[Mr.Good]

I feel that some fellows here still insist that the reason Karimi was not invited for Saudi game was due to personal issues from Daei's prespective rather than Karimi's fitness and clublessness.

we all saw Karimi's first game with pp. IMO he was out of touch and lacked fitness and that was two weeks after joining PP practice (remember he did not play in the first week after he joined pp), its true that Karimi has regained some of his fitness for the Derby game and the last game, and that is the reason he is called back to TM.
TM does not practice for two or three weeks before a game.
I don't see any problem in this logic;
No club + No fitness --> no TM
Club + good performance --> TM

Mind you that Karimi is still not his old self and id not reach his optimal form and still was invited because of his potential and match changing capabilities.


Should Karimi be any different than other player??
Please tell me where is the problem with this logic, and why Karimi should expect to be treated differently??

[zzgloo]

Ali Jaan....
I am 50% in agreement with you.....
In one hand, Daie's arrogance and disrepect for players...was bound to back fire !!!
And In another hand, karimi should have played with TM, and shown Daei,that TM is More important to him than the head coach.!!

Daei has made the situation some how, that If players play well, it will be to Daei's credit..............and if they play bad....Daei can say: " I told you so "!, and I did n't want that player to begin with....
This is absolutly the most disrepectful way to coach..............
Through out the world, the top coaches are known to be , while firm with players in the camp and in the locker room....very supportive of the players in public.............
Daei Is wrong.,as the inviroment he has created is not player freindly, nor any player feel like to want to do the best for him...
he will pay for his, player non-freindly attitude, even more,than just Karimi's case !

[Ali Chicago]

^ No offense Ali jan, but I also have the feeling you are putting a player above the team. And due to your love for this player you ignore that he has been on a heavy downfall and it was very legitimate not to nominate him for a crucial qualifier in Saudi Arabia when he was struggling to find a club and great alternatives were available.

That is no personal insult to Karimi but absolutely legitimate and necessary. What you also seem to forget when you talk about failures from both Daei and Karimi is that Daei is Karimi's boss and therefore they are not equal "counterparts" who have to agree. Daei decides and Karimi has to follow, unless Daei does something personal to Karimi which he surely didn't when excluding him when he was out of club action.

Just like with Azizi, former achievements do not mean a player always has to be selected years later. That is why I think Karimi's decision was good for Iranian football. Although he could still be useful currently, I think this will change soon but for years to come the Karimi issue would have created hashiyeh around TM and it's good that he put an end to it before it really started.

I feel that some fellows here still insist that the reason Karimi was not invited for Saudi game was due to personal issues from Daei's prespective rather than Karimi's fitness and clublessness.

we all saw Karimi's first game with pp. IMO he was out of touch and lacked fitness and that was two weeks after joining PP practice (remember he did not play in the first week after he joined pp), its true that Karimi has regained some of his fitness for the Derby game and the last game, and that is the reason he is called back to TM.
TM does not practice for two or three weeks before a game.
I don't see any problem in this logic;
No club + No fitness --> no TM
Club + good performance --> TM

Mind you that Karimi is still not his old self and id not reach his optimal form and still was invited because of his potential and match changing capabilities.


Should Karimi be any different than other player??
Please tell me where is the problem with this logic, and why Karimi should expect to be treated differently??

The following is the answer to your question I bolded above.
Karimi is a very different player than others and yes he needs to be treated accordingly.

This isn't about social justice and fairness, this is about reality. You can put Ando Sadeghi, Zare and many others to play hours and I mean literally hours and they won't impact the game. Players in the claiber of Karimi need seconds here and there to IMPACT the game. At the end it is our team Melli who wills suffer for not having him.

Guys look at Karimi's impact in the past two games. I really can't understand how was he invited by Daie in the first place if his peroformance wasn't stellar. So please no more comments about performance. Many rescued the PP's arse in one of the most important games. I repeated over and over about the role of an IMPACT player. Sounds like it is just going no where. AS Paul Simon sings in his song called boxer
"
All lies and jest.
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
Now I feel I keep saying IMPACT player but doesn't get through to anyone.


Anyways, I won't pursue this anymore, maybe it is my bias and right now I can't see it, but just for a second consider the fact that maybe emperror has no cloths on.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Jaan....
I am 50% in agreement with you.....
In one hand, Daie's arrogance and disrepect for players...was bound to back fire !!!
And In another hand, karimi should have played with TM, and shown Daei,that TM is More important to him than head coach.!!
Daei has made the situation some how, that If players play well, it will be to Daei's credit..............and if they play bad....Daei can say: " I told you so "!, and I did not that player to begin with....
This is absolutly the most disrepectful way to coach..............
Through out the world, the top coaches are known to be , while firm with players in the camp and in the locker room....very supportive of the players in public.............
Daei Is wrong...and he will pay for it even more,than just Karimi's case !

you see Bahram Jaan, no disrespect but the difference is you don't realize the impact of the emotional state of the player when he plays. Why Karimi in Bayern was like that or wasn't successful in Qatar, but was successful in AlAhli? Why he is doing so good in PP now? Cause he is being treated and acknowledged as a super star that he truly is.

Did you notice when Pezhman Noori gave him the capitan's arm band in Pegah game? Did you see when 90K people went to PP game when he played? That is the difference that revived Karimi.

Why do you think Home game advantage is so important. They are the same players same field same everything? The difference is emotional support. Football at high level isn't just about passing and dribbling, it is about player's motivation and feedback he gets from the surronding environment. IFF and Daie's comments hurt Ali and at the end it is the TM who will suffer.

This guy is a superstar, he needs self confidence to the border line ****yness in order to go and beat the player against him. This isn't about Oprah show or Dr. Phil Bahram Jaan. This is about man's will to go and fight and beat the other guy, when a superstar like him in being casterated the way he was by IFF and disrespected by Mr. Daie, I am no surprise to seee the reaction and one more time, TM will suffer at the end. It is a shame to see a player like Zandi or Ando play in the TM where we don't have someone like him.

[Martin-Reza]

Karimi is a very different player than others and yes he needs to be treated accordingly.

I must say it's good that you really nailed down the core of the disagreement with that but I couldn't agree less on this matter.

First of all I don't think he is outstanding anylonger nor do I think Karimi or generally any starplayer deserves special treatment, although this is a very complex matter which can't be dealt with in one sentence.

[Mr.Good]

Karimi is a very different player than others and yes he needs to be treated accordingly.

That is absolutely true and it is the reason he was invited even though he is not 100%, playing only three games after a very very long summer.
I agree with you that Karimi is an Impact player, and I would take a 70% Karimi over a 100% of another players any day. Karimi was not 100% in the WCQ2006, but he was playing also.

But you should accept that two month ago Karimi was not even 70%, he had no club and no Match practice. TM is no place for players to get in shape. they should have a club first and foremost.

you see two month ago Karimi had No Club and he was Not Fit , therefore he was Not Invited
Now he has club and he is somehow Match fit therefore he was invited

[zzgloo]

you see Bahram Jaan, no disrespect but the difference is you don't realize the impact of the emotional state of the player when he plays. Why Karimi in Bayern was like that or wasn't successful in Qatar, but was successful in AlAhli? Why he is doing so good in PP now? Cause he is being treated and acknowledged as a super star that he truly is.
Did you notice when Pezhman Noori gave him the capitan's arm band in Pegah game? Did you see when 90K people went to PP game when he played? That is the difference that revived Karimi.
Why do you think Home game advantage is so important. They are the same players same field same everything? The difference is emotional support. Football at high level isn't just about passing and dribbling, it is about player's motivation and feedback he gets from the surronding environment. IFF and Daie's comments hurt Ali and at the end it is the TM who will suffer.
This guy is a superstar, he needs self confidence to the border line ****yness in order to go and beat the player against him. This isn't about Oprah show or Dr. Phil Bahram Jaan. This is about man's will to go and fight and beat the other guy, when a superstar like him in being casterated the way he was by IFF and disrespected by Mr. Daie, I am no surprise to seee the reaction and one more time, TM will suffer at the end. It is a shame to see a player like Zandi or Ando play in the TM where we don't have someone like him.

You have said it so well..........I totaly agree with the state of emotions and its relation with performance......and I do not know why you disagreed with my previouse post....as I also said that in another way....
I say it again.......A coach needs to support and encourage his players, and create an atmospher in which player wants to do his best........and not the atmospher daei has created, in which,if player plays well is to Dae's credit..and if not is what Daei had known to begin with !
I am very sure, this is how Kia, hashemian,and all our legioners feel now......
They see a coach, who wants to be the single point of credit..and does not admit he needs any player !!!
I would never want to do my best , when I know I will never be credited for any success !

This is just a begining, as Daei will pay more for his , dominating Ego, and " I do not need any body " policies !!

[Doctor DOOM]

since everyone's commenting on this statement, let me do so as well

Karimi is a very different player than others and yes he needs to be treated accordingly.

I agree with ali. this is an absolute truth. especially in our Iranian culture where emotions & sentiments play a more significant role in everything. stars need to be pampered ... let alone super stars.

But, while the statement holds true, I say when we become a professional ( judging by the fees we demand and everything else ), as a professional , albeit the superstar status, we must adjust our mentality also.

in an amateur atmosphere, whether we like it or not, we MUST include a star player's expectations and need for pampering. but we're trying to become professionals. and I'm afraid we shd check such baggage outside the door

I expect from someone who's been playing pro football for many years , some in europe, to adjust his mentality. so what if many havent done so? YOU must do it, and hope for others to follow.
that's why I say KIA is the role model for this argument. he is also a superstar. but a pro first.

================

But, bahram mentioned something even more emphatic than the contrast of a pro's mentality with that of an amateur.

I would never want to do my best , when I know I will never be credited for any success !

This is about the nature of man, irrespective of a pro or amateur, poor or rich or ... . this is more fundamental to a human being than just his level of professionalism.
THIS is absolutely true and THIS has far-reaching implications in our affairs. It could be very damaging. and I hope this doesnt get set.
we have seen such things happen , but they are sporadic. But still, a very dangerous issue.

[Doctor DOOM]

anyway, guys ... I doubt karimi would join the team, at least not for the upcoming one.
hopefully he will learn from kia, and put aside the personal matters for the good of TM. with his brilliant performances in IPL, he has given the right response to all those who, in their zeal to defend anything and everything... no matter how far-fetched, wrongly said "he isnt in form. he isnt good anymore. he isnt this or that".
his goals and displays have been the absolute BEST response and marvelous way to make his case.

================

meanwhile, we have a game at hand and as I go through the line up I see we have a pretty efficient squad ready.

against the koreans, we'd need:
- a speedy and alert defense
- a creative midfield
- a tall and tough forward line

we have all the ingredients in the squad. the issue is using the right ppl in the right posts... irrespective of personal likes/dislikes.
will we see this?

somehow I think the heading ability of our players like nekounam, aghili, hosseini, salehi, ... will get the result for us. especially since NOW, we have guys on BOTH flanks who can cross well and constantly serve our headers, with return of kia, kaabi, hajsafi and zandi.
I think we will see the goals come off such attempts.

[Ali Chicago]

I must say it's good that you really nailed down the core of the disagreement with that but I couldn't agree less on this matter.

First of all I don't think he is outstanding anylonger nor do I think Karimi or generally any starplayer deserves special treatment, although this is a very complex matter which can't be dealt with in one sentence.

With all the respect, his current performance in the PP indicated otherwise. Plus, many well known coaches in football disagreed with your assesment of him. Blaz, Branko, Fleix Magath, Ottmar Hattsfield and even now, Mr. Daie himself with his invitation admitted he is an IMPACT player and a superstar considering the past events (which you still don't admit to). But like I said, there is no point to go back and forth about this.

With all the respect, only a catastrophic event may make you to revise your blind faith in Mr. Daie. Sad part is that Mr. Daie and Branko impacted in a negative way the TM performance in WC2006 and now potentially Mr. Daie again in WC2010. Time will show.

[Martin-Reza]

With all the respect, only a catastrophic event may make you to revise your blind faith in Mr. Daie. Sad part is that Mr. Daie and Branko impacted in a negative way the TM performance in WC2006 and now potentially Mr. Daie again in WC2010. Time will show.

I could claim the same about you and your faith in Karimi. My faith in Daei is no different than your faith in Karimi. So are we both blind or both not? Your call.

And I can't stand this traditional coach bashing. Name me one national team coach who didn't negatively impact TM performance in any major tournament in your opinion.

MK was bad, Talebi was bad, Pourheydari was bad, Blazevic was bad, Ivankovic was bad, Shahrokhi was bad, Ghalenoei was bad and now Daei is or will be bad. Always the same. The only coach usually praised by Iranian fans was Tomislav Ivic, no co-incident that he had no single competitive game.

And we don't want to talk about Karimi's impact on the WC campaign, do we?

[maij]

I am quite curious on who will fill the forward role.

Rezaei will definitely be starting in my opinion, I don't know if Daei will introduce Sayed Salehi or Khalatbary , OR will leave Rezaei as the sole forward without an all out striker.

Any thoughts ?

[Martin-Reza]

^ I don't think Rezaei fits the sole forward role. He is not physically "present" and strong. He is a typical second or supporting striker. So I am sure he will be paired up with either Khatibi or Salehi upfront. Salehi fits the role better than Khatibi who is more similar to Rezaei. But Khatibi has more experience.

The test match against Paykan showed Daei is probably planning with Rezaei-Salehi upfront.