Iran vs. North Korea [Post Match Discussion]

[yashar_fasihnia]

I'm afraid we're going in circles here.

first of all I am amused to see how difficult it is for some of you to acknowledge the FACT that zareh isnt picked as the best player for LB post even in his own club, which says a lot.
I think it makes it indefensible if zareh is deemed unfit for LB position in a roster of 30 players, but we're supposed to digest in a pool of 100's of players, he suddenly is transformed into the best choice for it!
IT DEFIES ALL LOGIC AND SENSE.
at least shiri, alenemeh, asadi, shirzad, .... have all been tried ( and some still do play ) in that post and have shown good performances. not zareh!


secondly, if he's played N number of games at LB ( all at TM ) and has been exposed to int'l opponents does not answer the question of his performances.
yes, if daei had picked me for LB post or GK or ... at TM, I'd have had as many games under my belt and have been exposed to all those int'l opponents. but what does that answer about my performance?

here is the crux of the issue: we all have eyes. we all have seen the games.
we all have seen the CONSISTENT turn-overs, bad markings, falling behind, mistakes, mis-tackles, mis-timings, .... some games I even came up with the data to prove the point. I think we can believe our eyes rather than the rhetoric and "party-line" statements that have no basis behind them but the blind support for the .. well, "party-line"

I think for more answers on zareh, you can refer to a couple of older threads on left back position . I cant be repeating the same things . might as well just direct you to those threads.
your answers lie over there.

==============

let me remind you of a very recent incident and add it to the series of failures of this experiment.

if you remember near the end of the n korea game where the korean almost scored with a little chip over rahmati and we were all saved becoz it carried a few inches beyond the goal and landed on the net. that is the direct result of zareh failing ( as usual ) to mark his man, leaving him one-on-one with rahmati and allowing him such a dangerous moment.
I dont think many of you would even speak a word had that one gone in.
and that's just ONE example of many failings on part of zareh in that game , where suddenly 2 crosses and 1 shot has compelled ppl to close their eyes to series of (repeated) mistakes !!!

but then again, perhaps the "party-line" would have stayed the same with some other kinds of excuses.

indeed we are going in circles!

again, in 1 line, saying whether a TM is at its full potential or not is highly subjective and its almost impossible for every fan to accept a certain squad as the TM with full potential.

if u really wanna try it, give me IN UR OPINION the top 23 players of Iran for TM at the moment, and i will find u people who will disagree with ur squad and say ur TM isnt the TM at full potential, on this very forum itself!

[Doctor DOOM]

opinions are one thing. but facts cannot be disputed.
facts are the ones I gave you in the other post.
zareh's turn-overs are not my opinion, but facts.
zareh's mistackles are not my opinion, but facts.
zareh's missing in post are not my opinion, but facts.
zareh's bad markings are not my opinion, but facts.
zareh's club position is not my opinion, but facts.
Media's credit to zareh's good performances as right mid ( and never at LB ) are not my opinion, but facts.
zareh's .... .

tomorrow if we use rahmati ( the GK ) in forward position and someone says we're not using our potential are you going to say this is just his "opinion" too ?

===============

just a question:
I wonder how all of you who defend zareh so vehemently feel when he causes a turn-over, or gets dribbled easily, or gets left behind or gets out-run or is found out of position or loses his mark , .... ?

[yashar_fasihnia]

i dont defend zareh, like i said, he isnt my fav player and i would like to see guys like alenemeh get more play time but this isnt about zareh.
this is about why u think ur opinions are facts.

i said it before, and i said it again, overzooming on one player is not good.
why dont u overzoom on aghili and count every wrong pass he makes and every times he gets dribbled?
wat about kaabi?
or which ever player u want....

anyways, i dont care about zareh and u can post against him as much as u want.
i still say, this isnt about him, this is about the fact that claims like "TM is or is not at full potential" is highly subjective. who has to decide this?? us fans right?? so how do u think 70million people can agree on one team that this certain squad is the strongest TM can field??

like i said, instead of all this to and fro arguments, just tell me ur top 23 players which u think will give TM maximum potential and we shall carry on from there.

[Doctor DOOM]

It's there in this thread.

I did say "at the moment I'd say daei picked the best we have in the league for his line up against n korea except 2 slots: khatibi's and zareh's......... "

it must be somewhere in previous pages of this very thread. check it out for urself

==================

as for why I pick on zareh ( and sadeghi ), it's quite obvious.
it is the direct result of continuous and consistent poor displays at TM.

why not aghili or X or Y ?
well aghili may be erratic these days, but to his credit, he has plenty of good moments and good games in between to remove the tag of "consistent poor display" from him.

[zzgloo]

Agha Bahram gol , I dearly wish you to live your life anyway you enjoy..nooshiy joonat. These discussion is not about changing ones beliefs or ideas or convert one to another party. We all have different views and what we do here is engage in arguments that is nothing but that.


I don't think I am stubborn , I merely stick to the points that I believe in unless I have evidence from others to change it. Beleive me , I have no ego or a chip of my shoulder.....Never claimed that I know better than anyone either.


As for the stats that you have published, you said that " no one has won more Asian Championship than Iran" , but what you published was the stats about " the Asian Cup" . Asian championships include many competitions including Youth teams (U19 and U17) and Women football. Iran is ranked a distant fourth.

Majid e aziz....


We are a pole of football in Asia,and widely respected and feared..., while,unlike South Koreans and japaneas,Saudis, we have always been handicaped by our system, as our " Bezzat " is even more than what is on the record,because of bad systems.

So, since this discussion is not about changeing one's Idea or beliefs, and is not about converting one to the other party.....I am glad we are all in a same page, and encourage all to criitisize any one and anybody, how ever they want ( Provided they are within Ethics and decency ,&PFDC policies) !, and one realy does not have to be an expert to comment on issues !, nor is any one here has Authurity to prevent them other wise...and non of us are particularly any more civilized than others !
majid jaan, I thank your humility and being sport...and forgive me,if I have some times not been so !

[yashar_fasihnia]

It's there in this thread.

I did say "at the moment I'd say daei picked the best we have in the league for his line up against n korea except 2 slots: khatibi's and zareh's......... "

so,
please name 2 replacements for zareh and khatibi and i will assume ur other 21 players are the same as the ones daei picked.

[Mr.Good]

I don't understand this issue of Bezza'at,
Maybe my farsi is rusty, but does Beza'at means potential? if so, then its true that our potential is much more than this, we have the talent, and the resources to be the best in Asia.
But the way the whole administrative system is functioning in Iran, I'd say we have reached much more than we could ever imagine.

look at it this way,
- we don't have a functioning youth system, most of our players lack in fundamentals of football.

- we don't have pro administration, most of the people in charge won't be clerks in the top pro teams of the world

- our league and teams don't have a stable financial system

- and much more...

[Doctor DOOM]

so,
please name 2 replacements for zareh and khatibi and i will assume ur other 21 players are the same as the ones daei picked.

you can go through the page here and get ur answer from the 2, 3 posts I have written:
http://www.persianfootball.com/forum...t=64857&page=4

[Doctor DOOM]

I don't understand this issue of Bezza'at,
Maybe my farsi is rusty, but does Beza'at means potential? if so, then its true that our potential is much more than this, we have the talent, and the resources to be the best in Asia.
But the way the whole administrative system is functioning in Iran, I'd say we have reached much more than we could ever imagine.

look at it this way,
- we don't have a functioning youth system, most of our players lack in fundamentals of football.

- we don't have pro administration, most of the people in charge won't be clerks in the top pro teams of the world

- our league and teams don't have a stable financial system

- and much more...

absolutely.

btw, I am quite sure beza'at ( Dara'ee ) is roughly translated as one's potential or capacity to attain something.
so your farsi is pretty much correct. no need to hit the deh-khoda any time soon ( unless mine is as bad as urs, which means we both shd hit it asap )

you are correct in enumerating the many factors that hamper and impede a country from realizing its potential and progress.

given this many shortcomings and lacks, I'd say any other country would not have achieved quarter of what we have.
so there IS another ( set of ) factor(s) that compensate for much of these deficiencies and in turn elevates our capabilities to attain what we have so far.

I'd put our inherent technical skills and potential, right off the streets and schools of our youth as one such factor. I'd even add the ever enigmatic matter of "gheyrat" to the list.
certainly there are some matters and entities that provide for this compensation.

[Mr.Good]

Dr. Peyman
I truly think you are blinded by your obsession of Zareh, its true that Zareh is not the best for LB, everybody agrees on that, but some of us say (TM coaches included) that the alternatives are not better.
The problem is that you think the alternative is much better than him, and you overlook their shortcomings. I have not seen all of them play, but I can tell you what I saw of some of them

- Nouri: He is careless in tackling, gets dribbled easily and very slow. I remeber from last year when he was playing LB regularli, in games that PP lost big las season, the goals were coming from Nouri's side, go back and look at pp games against ES. Ahvaz and ZobAhan from Last season with Nouri at LB. little kids like Mosalman and (I forgot the guy's name from Est. Ah.) scored goals by running around Nouri. Even Ghotbi realized that mid-season last year and started using Nosrati instead. This year also Nouri is being played at DM.

-Ale Nemeh: he is big, and fast, and have a strong leg. I only watched his games at WAFF, but even in the game against Qatar where we scored 6 goals, he did not cover his position well in counter attacks in some instances. he needs time and more experience before he is sent into big games.

- Shiri: same as AleNemeh, I noticed him in WAFF and the MIGHTY Palestinian could go around him. But he has potential more than Nouri, he needs more playtime in his club against big teams first

[Ali Chicago]

I don't understand this issue of Bezza'at,
Maybe my farsi is rusty, but does Beza'at means potential? if so, then its true that our potential is much more than this, we have the talent, and the resources to be the best in Asia.
But the way the whole administrative system is functioning in Iran, I'd say we have reached much more than we could ever imagine.

look at it this way,
- we don't have a functioning youth system, most of our players lack in fundamentals of football.

- we don't have pro administration, most of the people in charge won't be clerks in the top pro teams of the world

- our league and teams don't have a stable financial system

- and much more...

I think Potential is the right word as well. I specailly agree with your point about professinal administration. Having said that, I am kind of becoming alergic to these reasons are used to justify certain on the field performance issue.

Don't mean to sound confrontational, but Iran does have a youth system. It isn't as great as Arsenal or Barcelona's youth system but it does. There are Youth programs in all levels from U13 (even U11) I think all the way under U20/21. Many of the teams have long term camps and travel internationally (Nenad Nikolitch is the U20 head coach) and they had a camp in Germany. Our U17 team just two days ago won the Asia's championship. Beating S. Korea in the final (mind you at U17) level Korea and Japan are super strong, even Oman won World championship at youth level several years ago). Now, this doesn't mean everything is ok in Iran in our football but anything else.

Many African countries who have much worst situation from infrastructure and manamgment, corruption, even civil war, are able to field good team, Angola made the WC, Ivory Coast, Togo, etc.

My point is while I can't deny the long term impact of problems that we all are familiar with (infrastructre, poor club management, lack fo professional club, federation administratives, etc.), yet these shortcomings shouldn't be used to justify poor perfromance on the field. In this very thread, one of the members after TM against N. Korea's performance, came and said this is our Bezzat. To me that isn't right. Again, this is my opinion and I dont' claim to be the TRUTH (just my opinion).

There are so many other elements at the Asian level at least that to some degree should make up for our shortcomings among them (youngest nation in the world (lots of potential athelets), Petro dollars that is being spent in our football (5 Milliard toman annual budget for SS and PP), Iranian physical size advantage compared to most other asian, strong fan base,etc.).

Compare Iran with 70 million and certian GDP size, pro league, 4-5 semi pro, amature division competing against UAE with few millions population (if that). Point is what we lack in certain areas (you listed few of them above) should to a large degree made up with other elments (at least in the Asia).

[Doctor DOOM]

no dont worry. it isnt obsession.
it's just a response to unnecessary and baseless defense of daei's picks , mixed with such comments like "he is the coach so he is right" and such stuff ( already gone through in previous pages ).

look. for the 100000000th time. I dont say the rest of those guys are maradona's grand-dadies and can single handedly turn games around and ... .
all I'm saying & repeat are facts that we see: zareh isnt doing his job correctly.
( for more read the threads and posts everywhere in F+ )
his negatives are waaaaay beyond forgivable and highly overshadow his positives.
we've been saved from more embarrassments on his side mainly becoz aghili usually covers him ( perhaps that's the reason he;s so stretched thin, so he's become more error-prone ). but just becoz we didnt concede goals does not mean our defense is great or the defenders are picked correctly ( see comments on how rahmati has saved us as the last line of defense, which means .... )
we also DO have some other options in the form of players who DO play that post in their clubs ( unlike zareh ).

shd we persist with a player who has TWICE the negative stats than his positives ( very important issue here ) ... for 12-13 games ... CONSISTENTLY ?

if we put khatibi or oladi in LB post and if we dont concede , will you guys come and say they is good enough for LB? coz from zareh's stats, I can bet almost ANY player from IPL can show such stats in the least .

which player will have 21 negatives against 12 positives in each game and claim it cant be emulated by any other player ( irrespective of his usual position in the club ?)


so it's quite logical to expect a coach to try other options there to see if they can deliver better stats.
you wont see anyone saying why not change nekunam and try X or Y.
why?
becoz neku's stats show his positives are more than his negatives.
you wont see ppl picking on rahmati or .... . becoz their stats are on the positive side.
zareh's arent. we've seen it. we've also seen some stats on a couple of games ( in the LB and WCQ game threads )
now if ppl continue to defy such logical inquiries, then one feels compelled to talk about it more.

===========

trust me. if one day we see any other player's stats show such consistent negative trend in a few continuous games, then whoever he is also deserves to be probed and questioned. whoever he may be.


================================

btw, as easily as we can write the term "obsession" , we can also write "blind defense & justification" or "giving carte blanche" just as easily.

[Doctor DOOM]

now my turn to ask yashar and others this question that was left un-answered:

tomorrow if we use rahmati ( the GK ) in forward position and someone says we're not using our potential are you going to say this is just his "opinion" too ?

... even if we end up winning a game through the usual neku goal or ... ?

[yashar_fasihnia]

now my turn to ask yashar and others this question that was left un-answered:


... even if we end up winning a game through the usual neku goal or ... ?

if rahmati starts performing at the same level as our other strikers, then yes because it wont really make a big difference if we play khatibi or rahmati as forward position then will it??

[Mr.Good]

so it's quite logical to expect a coach to try other options there to see if they can deliver better stats.

This is the whole point here, The Coach tried some players, he tried them at WAFF and they DID NOT satisfy him. you think they were perfect then and will do better in big games, but the coaches disagree.
anyways, AleNemeh was introduced to TM as backup, he was called up for the squad for the past two games. when he is ready and shows graet performances in practice and if TM needs him he will be used.

so why are you still persisting on this issue? should Daei put them in the starting lineup, just for the sake of saying I told you so when they screw up.
will you be satisfied then?

please respond in short. I don't want to read a book for that