Iran vs. North Korea [Post Match Discussion]

[Doctor DOOM]

nokhodi jan, it is one thing to say "this is what we are capable of and no more" and another thing to "be able to play better but dont maintain it and under-perform".

in the case of the former, there is no reason to argue, coz that team has peaked and reached its potential and cant do better.

in the latter's case, the team CAN and sporadically DO show they can play better, but they either lose focus, lose momentum, lose stamina, lose motivation, .... generally lose the plot and become erratic and under-perform.

I think we all agree that this team CAN play better than this. it is well within their capacity and capability.

========================

a note on nekounam since bahram brought him up.
a while back after watching an osasuna game I noticed neku's consistent trend in failing to back-track and defend on an offense-to-defense transition.
he gets stuck up field, fails to retreat quickly and usually loses his mark , who more often than not finds free space on rebound balls just outside our 18 and has time to shoot or pass or create danger for us.

Neku has been consistently failing in this. be it at TM or osasuna.
I think someone needs to talk to him and tell him about a quick transition from offense to defense. he does the reverse quite well, but he's too slow to retreat and cover his man ! we've seen many dangerous chances created on our goal by this single mistake, in many games.

[Doctor DOOM]

back to counter-attacks.

I dont know why but our TM starts a counter well from our half, but once it enters the opponent's half, they either lose focus or dont know what to do with the ball, hence the useless lateral passes and worse, back passes, allowing the opponent to regroup.

it is the coach's responsibility to work on this matter. and in the past few years I have not seen this done by any of branko, GN, EZ or daei !
none of them !
in all these teams our counterattacks have been just far too ineffective and more than 90% of them end up the same way I described above.

one guy who at least on theory talked well on the matter was khoda-biamorz MK ( whose football is over now ). who believed we must reach the opponent's goal with least number of passes in quickest time.
I know MK has many faults in his coaching, but he has many valuable points also. one is this one above. the other is he stays true to the nature of our football which is an attacking football.

I think we have enough quick players to deliver good counterattacks, but they arent trained well or taught well to execute the move.

we have quick flanks in kaabi, hajsafi, madanchi, rezaei, kazemian, even gholamnejad and kia, who can initiate a good counter ( as we've seen on many occasions ). the problem starts when we get near the opponent's 18 and our lads get stuck.
so instead of continuing the move, they either get scared of "going in alone" or just panic!

so what does he do? passes laterally or behind. even at this stage, the counter can be salvaged with a good long diagonal pass to the opposite flank ( coz many opponents follow the ball first ). but we dont see that. the second player , again, passes laterall y or behind.
so much that we complete the misery by ending up passing back to hosseini or aghili eventually !!!

pathetic !
absolutely unforgivable.

our coaches shd work on the moves once the runner reaches near the opponent 18. there shd be clear strategies to make sure there are at least one or 2 more runners in the middle coming along with the fellow. and they shd continue the forward momentum.

worst of all is when some technical chap gets the ball and he suddenly tries to show what he can do with the ball and how he can do a "la'ee" or dribble , to the millions of audience!
hence my name for these idiots: "tormoz dasti"
karimi used to be this. but he isnt anymore.
today, shojaei has taken up the mantle !!!

[maij]

[Ali Chicago]

I am so not surprised to see that "Bezzat ma hamin hast" comment. For the love of god, we played agaisnt the team that is 107th in the FIFA ranking. At least Branko supporters had somewhat an argument to say we played against Mexico and Portugal not against 107th team of FIFA.

This was exactly the natural consequences of the attitude that its motto was "We are supporting TM, so everything is great in the TM". This was the same motto that Branko supporters after the weak performance in WC2006 argued.

Nobody in his sane mind can say if X or Y played we would have done better or worst, that is pure speculation. But that is the wrong question to ask in the first place.

Questions are :

• Look at how the team played the collective 11 players. The team can play well and loose. We didn't see that in our team yesterday.
  
• Our team didn't play well in KSA but good result kind of covered for that and on top of that many Daie critics were ready to give him slack (specially in the atmosphere that is created around TM).
  
• Question is against a team that isn't good in the air ( I heard Mr. Afazeli went to China DPR and S Korea game) why not a tall target forward was invited for this one bloody game at least. For example, Farid Abedi, even Tahmasebi oe even Enayati for this one game and we tell him to stay up there and we dont' want you to participate too much in defense).
  
• Question is, why our team is under pressure by North Korea and caoch changes Jabbari for Zandi (none of them are known for their defensive abilities).
  
• Question is why our bench is so ineffective (based on initial wrong player selection) that when Daie subs, he can't impact the game.

And many many more questions.

Of course with a comment like "this is our Bezzat" we can mast mali these issue and keep repeating like Hezbollahis adn their Hezb faghat Hezbollah slogan, Coach faghat Daie. If our team underperforms, it must be the same Bezzat of our football, or we don't have grass field and IFF is incompetent, moon was too close to Earth and N. Korea is the same dark horse it was in 1966 in London WC. We can say all of that, but we will field a team next game and we will see the same problems again and again (poor player selection, lack of quality subs on the bench, giving away second balls in front of our 18 yards, etc. etc.).

To be honest, it isn't Daie's fault. The total experience of the whole coaching staff of the TM (Daie, Afazeli, Gholampoor) overall is less than 2 years at a high level (IPL level), so what can one expect?

[Doctor DOOM]

majid jan, I seriously dont know why you are defending some issues that are quite clear to ppl.
it's as simple as saying if you put your hand into the fire, you'll get burnt. or if you drop a stone into the water, it will sink. it's simple logic.


1- first, no one said if X was in instead of Y we'd have scored 4 (lets stop this habit).
but there are many issues that are as simple as do do ta chahar ta.


let me refresh your memory:
A) in the run up, you, yourself said we'd benefit from having a tall striker ( the only one daei called, salehi ). I dont think you wanted salehi in becoz he's your cousin, or ghashang gher mideh.

B) this view is shared by many others.
why? becoz we have learnt from experience, also becoz it is the right thing to do when we compare the two peoples of Iran and north korea.

C) the third sign was during the game itself. when our short players like khatibi, rezaei and kia ( who scored early on ) were able to head the balls in the opponent's 18.

all these signs point to one thing that was APPARENT FROM THE BEGINNING & BEFORE THE MATCH: we can use the height advantage in their 18.

now if a coach dismisses such FUNDAMENTAL AND BASIC data for almost 80 minutes of the game .... all the while khatibi & rezaei missing cross after cross up front, then it becomes clear that something is not working right in the leadership & conduct of the game.

frankly somethings are quite clear and simple that when overlooked, it becomes indefensible.

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2- lets also not forget it was not against brazil or argentina. the game was against north korea.

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I believe the WORST thing we can do to this TM, ... even worse than fairly or unfairly criticizing it .... is to sweep the dirt under the rug .
and we do it game after game!
we get favorable result in ksa, and after a week we all forget how poorly we played.
we win this game against n korea, and we forget the difference between this narrow win and a possible 4-2 loss was 3-4 magnificent and beyond expectation svaes from our LAST LINE OF DEFENSE, THE KEEPER..... when the whole team in front of him had failed to do its job.

those saves are EXTRA ordinary. and as armin said, we shd not rely on our keepers to go on making such extra ordinary saves , game after game, to cover our failures. we shd NOT expect to see this kind of saves every game.

yes. we could have AS EASILY lost 4-2 ... at home, in azadi, against north korea.

the worst thing we can do is defend this performance based on the numbers on the scoreboard.

[Doctor DOOM]

to mention one more problematic issue that keeps getting swept under the rug:
zareh as LB.
I'm happy others have started to question this matter also.



with his repeated mistakes ( even if in this one game he had an ok first half in offense ) I'm afraid the day we finally meet with a good team ( which we have not , so far, except the ONE time , ksa ), we may be in for a very rude awakening !!

time to correct this today and now.

[maij]

majid jan, I seriously dont know why you are defending some issues that are quite clear to ppl.

1- first, no one said if X was in instead of Y we'd have scored 4 (lets stop this habit).
but there are many issues that are as simple as do do ta chahar ta.

let me refresh your memory:
A) in the run up, you, yourself said we'd benefit from having a tall striker ( the only one daei called, salehi ). I dont think you wanted salehi in becoz he's your cousin, or ghashang gher mideh.

B) this view is shared by many others.
why? becoz we have learnt from experience, also becoz it is the right thing to do when we compare the two peoples of Iran and north korea.

That is why I said it is the best line up ( Except for Khatibi) , I don't know how you missed that part of my post , Peyman Jan.

C) the third sign was during the game itself. when our short players like khatibi, rezaei and kia ( who scored early on ) were able to head the balls in the opponent's 18.

all these signs point to one thing that was APPARENT FROM THE BEGINNING & BEFORE THE MATCH: we can use the height advantage in their 18.

now if a coach dismisses such FUNDAMENTAL AND BASIC data for almost 80 minutes of the game .... all the while khatibi & rezaei missing cross after cross up front, then it becomes clear that something is not working right in the leadership & conduct of the game.

frankly somethings are quite clear and simple that when overlooked, it becomes indefensible.

Back to the same old argument, don't you think that Daei was there , been there and seen that ????

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2- lets also not forget it was not against brazil or argentina. the game was against north korea.

================

And your not exactly Argentina or Spain my friend , with a closet full of trophies and achievements.

I believe the WORST thing we can do to this TM, ... even worse than fairly or unfairly criticizing it .... is to sweep the dirt under the rug .
and we do it game after game!
we get favorable result in ksa, and after a week we all forget how poorly we played.
we win this game against n korea, and we forget the difference between this narrow win and a possible 4-2 loss was 3-4 magnificent and beyond expectation svaes from our LAST LINE OF DEFENSE, THE KEEPER..... when the whole team in front of him had failed to do its job.

those saves are EXTRA ordinary. and as armin said, we shd not rely on our keepers to go on making such extra ordinary saves , game after game, to cover our failures. we shd NOT expect to see this kind of saves every game.

yes. we could have AS EASILY lost 4-2 ... at home, in azadi, against north korea.

the worst thing we can do is defend this performance based on the numbers on the scoreboard.

I seriously doubt that the issues that you refer to as "sweep the dirt under the rug", has any credence as the shortcomings of the Iranian football are apparent in many different departments, and has been mentioned by everyone and everywhere. The fact that you change a player here and player there does not seem to have a major effect. Go to www.teammelli.com and see how many players Daei and other coaches have used in each championship with the same outcome.

Most of the faults in the playing styles have been discussed at various posts to the extent of saturation, yet we always have people who think they have the right answer , especially those ex-coaches who achieved zilch in their careers while at the helm , but suddenly they are the answer to Iran's football problems behind the scene.

The poor marking and defensive strategies is a grassroots problem. The complacency, consistency and loss of stamina are chronic problems. Erratic passing and loss of position / committing fouls at critical areas needs serious addressing, these are some of the things that even an amateur desktop coach like me is aware of, but the question remains how effective is the system to rectify these basic errors and shortcomings, but most importantly is this a Team Melli level problem or it starts way before a player in the international arena?

Doesn’t surprise you that no Iranian clubs has actually won the Asian Champion League and no youth level team won any championships since the pre-revolution years? Where is Team Melli getting its players from, isn’t it the clubs and the youth level teams? Or, you don’t see any relation in this?

So, to me such performances, which is perhaps not too ideal although the 3 points was quite satisfying, is a natural outcome of this football system. Your quote of “"sweep the dirt under the rug", applies when people ignore the major problem of football in Iran from infra-structure to facilities to management , and instead focus on Team Melli deficiencies to display their dissatisfaction or burden Team Melli the responsibilities of saving the face of such an inefficient system.

We all have aspiration of having a perfect team with excellent performance and results, but it is not as simple as one thinks. Selecting the best players at your disposal is not even a guarantee for success in football. Look at the centre of defense in Aghili and Hosseini , who is better that this pair in Iran now? Yet time after time I have seen Aghili kick air balls in Sepahan and Hosseini‘s club performance is less than satisfactory for a defender in his class.

It is surely not about changing a player or two. When our best asset Nekounam has an off day , the defense so exposed that we have to thank Rahmati for being the savior ( don’t depend too much on him either , because he has a history as long as your arm for goofing). The only thing that remains for us is to pray that our boys don’t commit errors and play their best, taking advantage of their scoring opportunities and don’t get cold feet.

[maij]

to mention one more problematic issue that keeps getting swept under the rug:
zareh as LB.
I'm happy others have started to question this matter also.



with his repeated mistakes ( even if in this one game he had an ok first half in offense ) I'm afraid the day we finally meet with a good team ( which we have not , so far, except the ONE time , ksa ), we may be in for a very rude awakening !!

time to correct this today and now.

That is one hell of an ill-timed argument , because Zare was one of the better players against North Korea and hardly put a foot wrong.

Don't you agree with me . Peyman jan?

[Martin-Reza]

oh, btw, I'd love to see MR describe how was shojaei's "speed in decision making" in this game

Well, actually he isn't the fastest decision maker. I also discussed that with my cousin during the game, comparing Shojaei, who was hesitating to make a decision, to Jabbari, who mostly knew what to do with the ball before he even received it. That's why I prefer Shojaei on the wing where one has more time to think usually. But due to his outstanding dribbling skills he can also be dangerous in center.

I am overall not that much of a Shojaei fan, you can ask Majeed who always said this guy has a very bright future and I used to say he is overrated .

Still Shojaei's decision making is way faster than Mobali's. And since Mobali can't really play as winger, that's why I think he has no chance to return to TM.

for the LB post, I'd pick shiri, alenemeh, shirzad, asadi , nouri ( and I may even add Feshangchi ) anyday over zareh , who plays right midfield at bargh ( I'm not gonna stop repeating this fact coz it makes using zareh at LB the most ridiculous and absurd decision ).
I hardly think those are the "blind" .
and I'm pretty sure Martin jan also will agree

No, I don't. Those exactly are the blind. None of them is a serious alternative to Zare except an in-form Nosrati or Mojtaba Shiri in my opinion. Both are much more defensive options than Zare though and not suitable against DPR or UAE.

[zzgloo]

As a Disbeliever in Daei's qualification, I like to Thank TM, and Ali Daei for the very valuable 3 points they earned....and want to compliment Mr.Daei on some positive points, and then critisize constructively !

Positive points :
.................................................. .......

1- Ali Daei ,despite some of unusual beliefes, did , invite some players, that showed his open mind, and desire to have the best at TM....players such as ( Ali Karimi, karim bagheri, Mahdavikia,sayed e Salehi,etc ).....I am convinced,even as a daei disbeliever, that he , now, ( NOW ) has undivided interest, of TM in mind when it comes to TM player selection.

2-Thanks to Daei and Human Afazeli, for very correctly assessing that TM had to start fast, and score early !!! , In my opinion, TM would have been in very bad situation other wise.

3-It was correct not to use KIA at the right back, and correct to team him up again with Kabei.

4-TM player selection in general , was the correct one, perhaps ,with the exception of Khatibi,..but, we should give our coach the benefit of the doubt with the selection, specialy when he was correct with the other 10 !!

.................................................. .......................

the Negatives ;

.................................................. .........................

1- Mr. Daei desperatly needs to ,get help at the assistant coaching,( perhaps two different assistants ) ........as TM coaching need help, in style, strategies, systems,cohesiveness,speed & Experince.

2-The combination of Hossaini & Aghili, although ,seemed well initialy,has been showing inexperice and inconsistancies. ( Loseing Golmohamadi & Rahman) at the same time, was not the right way to trasform the center defense.

3- Offensively, TM lacks: personel, system,speed,experince !

[Doctor DOOM]

to martin jan:

1- Lets just say when I evaluate a player I look at the PLAYER, not what daei’s opinion of him is.
Those players have been performing far better than any other left backs in the league and testament to that is observed & acknowledged by all fans and media.
And loll, they ARE left backs , unlike ppl who don’t even play in this post ….

LOL. I think you'd find it very hard to convince ppl zareh is the best LB in Iran, when in his own club, he isnt the best LB !!!!!

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2- this is very new to me. shojaei suddenly is not good for the offensive mid and is better on the side ???????

really?
till yesterday, he was the best for OM !!
why the change?
becoz daei put him there?
what did he do on the side , mind explaining to us ? how was shojaei's performance on the side ?

again, I must say we must evaluate the player by the player's actual performance, not what daei "thinks" or in "defense of daei's decisions".

=======================================

to majid jan:

1- zareh had 2 very nice crosses and 1 good shot . all 3 of them in one half, which the koreans did NOT put pressure on our defense and were content with defending more than anything else.

in second half he was the same old zareh with bad defending, wrong positioning, bad marking, ... . why the sudden change in performance?
becoz the koreans attacked more and started to put pressure on our team.

so forgive me if I dont change my view of 12-13 poor games with 2 good crosses and 1 shot in ONE HALF.

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2- even if defending is and has been our achille's heel, it does not mean we have to close our eyes to it and claim this game was a good game.
the alternative is we wont even try to correct the defensive strategies, coz we merely accept "this is our best"!

we have seen how closing our eyes to the team's PERFORMANCE and merely looking at the score-board has stunted us and prevented us from getting better.

[maij]

to majid jan:

1- zareh had 2 very nice crosses and 1 good shot . all 3 of them in one half, which the koreans did NOT put pressure on our defense and were content with defending more than anything else.

in second half he was the same old zareh with bad defending, wrong positioning, bad marking, ... . why the sudden change in performance?
becoz the koreans attacked more and started to put pressure on our team.

so forgive me if I dont change my view of 12-13 poor games with 2 good crosses and 1 shot in ONE HALF.

Although I am not a great fan of Sattar Zare , I don't share your opinion on his performance. I don't know what is your expectation from a defender , but whatever it is , you need to reduce your obsessions about Zare to have a objective opinion.

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2- even if defending is and has been our achille's heel, it does not mean we have to close our eyes to it and claim this game was a good game.
the alternative is we wont even try to correct the defensive strategies, coz we merely accept "this is our best"!

we have seen how closing our eyes to the team's PERFORMANCE and merely looking at the score-board has stunted us and prevented us from getting better.

Once again , I really don't think that you will be ever satisfied by any TM match regardless who is playing or who is coaching. This is very well documented throughout the years in these forums.

I don't blame you for wanting to see a prefect performance and a perfect result every time the team plays , but seriously , you are supporting the wrong team , because with the current status of Iranian football , seeking perfection or high standard is far fetched desire....Don't get me wrong , I also want perfection , but then again I know the limits of my expectation and lowered it a few decades back (since 1979 , that is)

Maybe you can tell me what is your ideal team in the last few years , so I can take a cue as well.

BTW: Show me in the record books where does it say :
Brazil (fantastic performance) vs Italy (average standard) rather than

Brazil 2 - 3 Italy

[Doctor DOOM]

majid jan, I am looking for the TM that plays to its maximum potential, using the best possible line ups.
that's all.

now, if we use the BEST players and still they fall short, then THAT cant be changed. but when we dont use the best we have , then it obviously opens the door to a lot of such arguments.

secondly, the above statement explains why I pick on certain players coz not only I believe, but a whole lot of others also believe that he isnt the best we have for the spot. not only that, I watch his games and see far too many individual mistakes that can easily be rectified by using others.

team mistakes in defense goes back to the general fundamentals of our football. and much harder to rectify. but individual mistakes can be corrected.

but the more you see the wrong player , after repeated failures, being used in the spot, it raises the level of scrutiny and sensitivity.

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2- that is merely looking at the numbers on the score-board.
we are not at the level of italy or brazil to discard or dismiss one or two performances , coz naturally they play good football.
we dont !
we HAVE to look closer at our performances.
havent we learnt from the mistake of watching the numbers on the board while dismissing the quality of performances ? hasnt it come back to haunt us?

there's only one way to trust the numbers and that is if they are CONSISTENT against GOOD TEAMS.

playing some minor league and piss poor teams and winning ... and then relying on these "wins", will never help us. we know this fact.
but if we repeatedly play GOOD teams and win, then we can be convinced there is something to it and we have the quality.
this is the only way "numbers" can be taken seriously.

otherwise, I'd rather not be lulled by the numbers and admit the facts and reality that , for example, in this game, koreans OUT-SHOT us, they had far more dangerous moments , especially when they attacked, and if it wasnt for the EXTRA-ordinary brilliance of our last man, we'd have lost the game by 1-2 goals difference !

why shd I ignore this dire and serious fact?
why shd I kid myself with the numbers?
till when ?

[Hajagha]

DD joon,

I second majid request that you forgot to answer. What is your ideal TM in the past?

Please keep it short and answer in one line which team you liked.

Cheers

[Doctor DOOM]

I did explain my idea of an ideal TM:

majid jan, I am looking for the TM that plays to its maximum potential, using the best possible line ups.
that's all.

it was the very first sentence. you must have missed it

meaning: we shd not have even ONE spot where we have a player of better quality sitting out than the one playing, at any moment in time.

meaning "names" shd not be the criteria, rather than the form of players.

meaning the team given the potential of its players, shd play to its maximum efficiency and make use of all that is available for it.

meaning if we have an opponent that is short is stature and weak in defense, we make use of this in all possible ways, which subsequently means we use our height advantage, our bulk and physique and use the wings and crosses to feed these, and use our shooting ability to reach our goal.

now, if we fail to shoot or use the height advantage or .... in this, we have NOT used our maximum potential.

if we have players who can elevate the team's performance and we dont use them, that is not using our best line up.

if we persist with a failed experiment , and we continue with this, while there are better players available, we are NOT using our best line up.

now, if you want an example, I must say in our recent game, if we had used a tall striker instead of khatibi we'd get maximum potential from our team's chances , since we'd be using BOTH aerial opportunities as well as ground. we wasted a lot of aerial crosses and opportunities solely becoz we didnt have a striker who could head the balls.
if that's not UNDER-utilizing our potential, then I dont know what is.

saying we shd have used a tall striker does not mean we would have scored sh*t load of goals. for all you know it may not have made any difference. but the matter is we did NOT leave any stone unturned. and this is the crux of the issue here.

hope this explained my views on the matter.