Iran vs. North Korea [Post Match Discussion]

[Doctor DOOM]

I just finished watching bargh's game and what a surprise .... zareh was NOT playing at left back post ... once again! what a surprise.
in fact as far as I can remember he has never played at LB in his club.

so from today onwards, I'll make life easy for all of us in arguing zareh's use in TM's LB post. I'll just ask one simple question: is zareh playing at LB at his own club?
I believe that explains whole lot about how wrong it is to use him at LB in TM.

[Hajagha]

I take it as "you don't have any previous TM as your best team".

Otherwise, I can list zillions of my dream for future.

baba, jigar tala, give me a name of previous team. Like 1978, 1996, or 1998, or 1960, whatever, give me a name.

and again, donm't write too much if you want me to read it.

Jigareto

[Ali Chicago]

...

The poor marking and defensive strategies is a grassroots problem. The complacency, consistency and loss of stamina are chronic problems. Erratic passing and loss of position / committing fouls at critical areas needs serious addressing, these are some of the things that even an amateur desktop coach like me is aware of, but the question remains how effective is the system to rectify these basic errors and shortcomings, but most importantly is this a Team Melli level problem or it starts way before a player in the international arena?

.....

Agha Majid, even a novice youth coach like me know at least 5 different drills, to deal with the defense coordination, defending the corner or free kicks. Your point about this should be thought at the youth level is valid, however, as a coach the most important job you have is to OBSERVE YOUR TEAM DURING THE MATCH and take a list of the shortcomings, prioritize the list and focus on them short comings in order to address them (at least improve partially). Once again, I know our players should know these, but reality is they don't, so what is Daie, GN, Branko's job? To address these specific issues.

Go read the TM practices or for that matter SS or PP practices, all you see is they played one touch and then played football in half of the field. That is where the problem lies. Our coaching staff (95% of them not just Daie), instead of observing the team and making a list and addressing those issue during the practices, stand next to the field either scream at players and ref or sit and watch the game as if they are a spectators.

Why do you think, in foreign TVs they have a football reporter and a football analyst, because the football analyst needs 100% focus to analyze the game.

My point isn't specific to Daie, but in this case he is the TM head coach and what I am not seeing is a gradual improvement in weak points of the TM. In this TM the defensive duties specially around our 18 yards is really poor. I didn't see better defending around our box in this game compared to KSA game and I fault whoever is the coach (in this case Daie) for it.


We can repeat the word "this is our Bezzat" or lament the fact that our players are poor or this or that, but in reality if we want to do well, we need at least have a coach that is experienced or smart enough to understand a simple relation :

• OBSERVE DURING THE GAME
• MAKE A LIST OF SHORTCOMINGS
• PRIOROTIZE THE LIST
• WORK ON SHORTCOMINGS DURING THE PRACTICES

So far Mr. Daie hasn't done this it seems. Hope he changes.

[maij]

Peyman Jan , you are talking about the "Ideal World" . Yes , your thoughts and ideas on team line ups are sound , but you keep stressing on ideas that YOU think it will work. Give the coaches SOME credit , don't you think they have similar ideas and if they are not utilizing it , there are some reasons for it?

Talking about strikers , I also think that a tall striker in the class of Ali Daei is a definite plus , but if your football system is not producing such a striker , you need to use other options. It is not a MUST that you have a tall striker , I can name you at least 10 world class teams that do not have a tall striker but that does not prevent them from winning and winning handsomely. Just as a starter , England has Wayne Rooney and Theo Walcott in their forward line , put on top of each other and they won't reach my "Tokhm"


In today's football , things are much more complicated on the pitch than what is on paper. One very famous ex-Team Melli player has refused to take penalties , not because he can not score but because he simply does not have the guts!!

[Ali Chicago]

...
4-TM player selection in general , was the correct one, perhaps ,with the exception of Khatibi,..but, we should give our coach the benefit of the doubt with the selection, specialy when he was correct with the other 10 !!
.................................................. .......................
...!

I think he not inviting a tall target forward with Aerial abilities (Sayed Salehi isn't the one) was his biggest mistake, against Korea. TM in Azadi (at least )can afford to bring a classic target forward and don't ask for too much of defensive duties from him.

[maij]

Agha Majid, even a novice youth coach like me know at least 5 different drills, to deal with the defense coordination, defending the corner or free kicks. Your point about this should be thought at the youth level is valid, however, as a coach the most important job you have is to OBSERVE YOUR TEAM DURING THE MATCH and take a list of the shortcomings, prioritize the list and focus on them short comings in order to address them (at least improve partially). Once again, I know our players should know these, but reality is they don't, so what is Daie, GN, Branko's job? To address these specific issues.

If you , me and the Doc know all these basic facts , what makes you think that the professional coaches don't know about such deficiencies...Honestly now, do you think these people have come from" Posht 'e kooh" or they have been playing waterpolo instead of football.

Go read the TM practices or for that matter SS or PP practices, all you see is they played one touch and then played football in half of the field. That is where the problem lies. Our coaching staff (95% of them not just Daie), instead of observing the team and making a list and addressing those issue during the practices, stand next to the field either scream at players and ref or sit and watch the game as if they are a spectators.

Let me add to your information. Team Melli practice , and I suspect most other teams , also include theory lectures. Something that you do not see on the TV or media. Training is NOT only about 2 teams passing and playing 5 a side or whatever. In those lectures all the shortcomings are highlighted. Other team lectures include psychology , medical and diet plan lectures.

Why do you think, in foreign TVs they have a football reporter and a football analyst, because the football analyst needs 100% focus to analyze the game.

My point isn't specific to Daie, but in this case he is the TM head coach and what I am not seeing is a gradual improvement in weak points of the TM. In this TM the defensive duties specially around our 18 yards is really poor. I didn't see better defending around our box in this game compared to KSA game and I fault whoever is the coach (in this case Daie) for it.

There is a Gentleman called Human Afazeli , who is probably the best analyzer of the game in Iran that I have seen. I know Human as an intelligent highly educated and licensed coach who has sharp eyes for dissecting a game. Human assisted Branko and Daei has swiftly recruited him.

Again , these people are a few step ahead of us , they know what they are doing , it is their job , their profession , their bread and butter. However , no one has a magic wand to ensure that every lecture , every instruction and every plan are executed perfectly comes the match day. It is the human nature , sometimes the player forget the most basic skills and as a coach , you must surely have experienced that.

Can you imagine a team (any team) that executes every plan perfectly on the pitch makes all the right moves , defends and attacks like a text book, then they will be formidable and no one can beat them!!! ...It has not happened yet and never will.

We can repeat the word "this is our Bezzat" or lament the fact that our players are poor or this or that, but in reality if we want to do well, we need at least have a coach that is experienced or smart enough to understand a simple relation :

• OBSERVE DURING THE GAME
• MAKE A LIST OF SHORTCOMINGS
• PRIOROTIZE THE LIST
• WORK ON SHORTCOMINGS DURING THE PRACTICES

So far Mr. Daie hasn't done this it seems. Hope he changes.

That is what you think , but it is far from being accurate or true. As always, you over-estimate your own ability and knowledge , and under-estimate the professionals.

[Ali Chicago]

You claim they do it and I would like to beleive you. But what I see, over and over agian in the field (where it matters the most) I don't see a sign of the improvement. Football games in best teams even somebody makes a mistake and a goal is scored, but when one sits and watches (not as a mere emotional fan), but as someone who has a trained eyes, can see in like high 70% of situations team, acts certian way. That shows the coach has worked on that aspect of the game. Go and watch the Iran Norht Korean and see how many time Koreans win the second ball (ball that is returned by our defense) again and again. Rahmati had a great day (and that doesn't happen every day btw), or else we were talking about a tough 3-2 or 4-2 loss now.

Go look at the KSA goal against US, what happened? Zandi stood, two of our defenders got sucked in and third one missed his mark, while Nekoonam got distracted by the run of the KSA forward. Now look at our defending on Wed, same prinicpals in action again.


No one expects here that our defense all of a sudden becomes impenetratable, but I am simply looking for a bit of improvement from game to game. Even that is not obvious.

I really find your point about they are pro so they must know better amazing. If we go by your logic, how come some of these soccer coaches loose their job? They are PRO mind you. Coaching sport or military training is very different than a school teacher and a university prof. It is much more than knowing a bunch of tactical/technical stuff and telling them to the players. If they players can't execute what you teach them (assuming you are knowledgable in the first place and thought them in the first place, which I doubt), then something is wrong with your teaching method.

With no disrespect to Mr. Afzali, please go to www.amazon.com and do a search on soccer tactics and you will see how many books and DVD are on written. Point is there are many many many (did i say many enough) people who know about these theoretical stuff. The few are succesful who have an eye to see the short comings, are consistant in focusing the most important short comings and find a creative way (beside lecturing) to teach the stuff to the player. Based on what we see on the field (not your opinion vs. mine) it seems our players don't exhibit anything new. Now your reaction is come here and say "This is our Bezzat" and I point out this is in part lack of quality coaching.

I find it really amazing in the day and age of where Guam (or the other team TM socred 17 on) and Vietnam and Indoneasia progressed so much and challenge stronger team, how they have this "can do attituge". But when you see a poor performance in part due to poor coaching (who is involved in Karimi's saga for a week before the game in big part due to his past actions), then you come up with the magic comment:

"THIS IS OUR BEZZAT", and have no reservation to say it even against the 107th team in FIFA ranking.

You have made your decision and going to supposedly support!!!!! TM. More it is supporting Daie actually but present it under supporting !!!! TM. The way things going at best we have two options, either Daie ( I hope) realizes the shortcomings in staff and brings someone qualified to support him and listens to him really, or our team at best limps and barely makes it out of our group among the top two teams. Worst case will be really weak results and end up third in our group or not even there.

[maij]

You claim they do it and I would like to beleive you.

Well , the issue is not whether you want to believe me or not. All due respect , I am not spreading a sermon or want to convert you to my religion. I can't really help it if Team Melli does not play according to the personal tastes of many fans , suffice to say that they are achieving the result , as last time I checked , the team who qualifies is the one with most points.....

I really find your point about they are pro so they must know better amazing.

It seems everything that I say amazes you.....

If we go by your logic, how come some of these soccer coaches loose their job? They are PRO mind you. Coaching sport or military training is very different than a school teacher and a university prof. It is much more than knowing a bunch of tactical/technical stuff and telling them to the players. If they players can't execute what you teach them (assuming you are knowledgable in the first place and thought them in the first place, which I doubt), then something is wrong with your teaching method.

Why coaches lose their job is a long subject that is beyond the scope of the post. But then again , what is this has to do with the the knowledge of the professional coaches?

It is so easy for you some fans to feel , say or act as if they know better than the coach , because in reality no one seriously is going to take them to the task. It is not as if someone is going to recruit you as head on the national team to prove the real coach is wrong.

This is fuitle and unproductive argument.

With no disrespect to Mr. Afzali, please go to www.amazon.com and do a search on soccer tactics and you will see how many books and DVD are on written. Point is there are many many many (did i say many enough) people who know about these theoretical stuff. The few are succesful who have an eye to see the short comings, are consistant in focusing the most important short comings and find a creative way (beside lecturing) to teach the stuff to the player. Based on what we see on the field (not your opinion vs. mine) it seems our players don't exhibit anything new. Now your reaction is come here and say "This is our Bezzat" and I point out this is in part lack of quality coaching.

OK , so there are a million books about coaching , what is the point ?
I don't know what new things our players need to exhibit , care to elaborate briefly , please.

I find it really amazing in the day and age of where Guam (or the other team TM socred 17 on) and Vietnam and Indoneasia progressed so much and challenge stronger team, how they have this "can do attituge". But when you see a poor performance in part due to poor coaching (who is involved in Karimi's saga for a week before the game in big part due to his past actions), then you come up with the magic comment:

"THIS IS OUR BEZZAT", and have no reservation to say it even against the 107th team in FIFA ranking.

First of all , in which bible have you read that every football team has to progress and no team should deteriorate or lose form ?

second : Obviousely you know something about Guam and Indonesia , would you like to elaborate on their progress and its relation to Team Melli ?

Third : Since when a team in a higher FIFA ranking HAS to annahilate the others below them.

You have made your decision and going to supposedly support!!!!!
TM. More it is supporting Daie actually but present it under supporting !!!! TM.

That is one hell of a cynical statement which you have been trading on lately. When you have no answer , you start personal attack and veiled insults, questioning motives and personalities.

You know Ali Agha , I can be "Zaboon diraz" , contemptuous , sarcastic , scornful and evil if I want to be , but this is neither pleasing nor respectful.

[Doctor DOOM]

Since reza wants me to actually name a team , then at the top of my head I can come up with this one , and it is an ironic choice, some might say :

Branko's team for busan asian games.
that team had covered all areas that a team may need: technique, physicality, artistry, experience, speed, ... etc.

of course there have been other line ups if we think a bit more. but since you wanted me to name one , here it is.


although if we look a bit deeper, we may even come up with MK's AC1996 team. have to weigh in on this one though. later.
and as I said earlier. had daei put in a physical and tall striker in this team and maybe used shiri or alenemeh instead of zareh, I'd have said this would be the team that was comprised of the best possible line up available at the moment. given VH's and khalili's injuries, karimi's case, and zandi's lack of fitness.
no doubt about it.

==============

"ironic" since I really dont like branko. but at the same time, I have to be fair and I always say his first 2 , 2 and half years were pretty useful and productive years ( up until the end of AC04 ).
and I have to give credit when it's due. even if it is branko.

liver

[Hajagha]

Since reza wants me to actually name a team , then at the top of my head I can come up with this one , and it is an ironic choice, some might say :

Branko's team for busan asian games.
that team had covered all areas that a team may need: technique, physicality, artistry, experience, speed, ... etc.

of course there have been other line ups if we think a bit more. but since you wanted me to name one , here it is.


although if we look a bit deeper, we may even come up with MK's AC1996 team. have to weigh in on this one though. later.
and as I said earlier. had daei put in a physical and tall striker in this team and maybe used shiri or alenemeh instead of zareh, I'd have said this would be the team that was comprised of the best possible line up available at the moment. no doubt about it.

==============

"ironic" since I really dont like branko. but at the same time, I have to be fair and I always say his first 2 2 and half years were pretty useful and productive years ( up until the end of AC04 ).
and I have to give credit when it's due. even if it is branko.

... and you know there were Mirzapour and Ostadasadi in those teams, right?

Now, who's going to hang you up for such supports.

[Ali Chicago]

....

You know Ali Agha , I can be "Zaboon diraz" , contemptuous , sarcastic , scornful and evil if I want to be , but this is neither pleasing nor respectful.

Guess it is the case of the lost in translation. I read my post and tried to be really creative and by any stretch of imagination I couldn't find anything comtemptous (contrary to many I can point out in others), scornful, omg EVIL.



This is what I am saying and I repeat it here "you and few others in this forum are ready to take TM to the anywhere Mr. Daie is taking it to and under the motto of "SUPPORT TM", justify it." This is my judgement based on what I observe in F+ during the past 4 months. I can't ssee this is SCORNFUL, EVIL!!!!. I never use the Term Zaboon Deraz about you, so please return the favor.

Agha Majid, kheyley nazook Narenji nabash baradar, It was just a week or 10 days ago in one of your posts you said, you support TM and I support Karimi. Guess you must have the crystal ball after all. I didn't label it scornful, EVIL, did I? You simply expressed your opinion and I didn't see anything evil about it. Let's just don't make jav sazi dadash. Some external events needs to verify whose forecast is closer to the truth.

It can't get any simpler than this, TM doesn't play well, but you say TM coaching staff is PRO and knows more than you and I, so we have to come here and sing in the praise of the DAIE AND AFZALI? For what, for barely beating the 107th team of FIFA? when people come here and point that out, they are SCORNFUL and EVIL?
To be honest, I think it is better we take a break from each other for a while.
Ayneh choon naghshe too benmood rast
Khood Shekan ayeeneh shekastan khatast


Movafagh bashi agha.

[Ali Chicago]

I take it as "you don't have any previous TM as your best team".
Otherwise, I can list zillions of my dream for future.
baba, jigar tala, give me a name of previous team. Like 1978, 1996, or 1998, or 1960, whatever, give me a name.
and again, donm't write too much if you want me to read it.
Jigareto

Of course there is no Best team as such, but I take the WC98 team over this team any day. Remember Iran changed 3 coaches within few months. We didn't have an organized league to this level, heck of a lot less money as well. Watch Iran Germnay game (Iran lost 2-0), but still watch that and compare it to WC2006 performance or worst Iran KSA or IRAN Norht Korea Now. I don't want to bring up Iran Yougoslavia example in which we were much much better.

[Mr.Good]

I think there has been lots of posts here, covering many issues.
But I've noticed one trend here that strengthen one of my beliefs which is Little knowledge is much worse than no knowledge at all.

I myself am an electrical engineer and have more than one higher degrees to prove it, but I will never tell an electrician who is working on a building or any other system how to do his job, no matter how many books I've read.

[Doctor DOOM]

reza jan, I dont know where you got ostaad asadi in all that, but mirzapoor, at the time was more or less the best we had available.
so, yes, I know there was mirzapoor in those teams

the busan team had 3 seniors, golmohamadi, daei and mirzapoor.

[Mr.Good]

I read many post arguing that we are much stronger than Korea DPR and we should have won easily. well, today I was watching the rerun of Brazil vs. Columbia in their WCQ. Now we all can see the relative comparison here, Brazil in one of top teams in their continent just like Iran, and Columbia is one of the weakest teams in their continent just like Korea DPR.
anyways, historically Brazil used to score 9,6,5 goals against Columbia, but in their latest game in MARACANA in RIO (you see the comparison here ---> Azadi) Brazil struggled big time and the result was 0-0. Columbian were defending with nail and tooth in this game. Whenever Kaka (My favorite player) got the ball, he went airborne, the Columbians were kicking the Brazilians left and right and marking them like their life depended on it. they were also dangerous in counters and could have won the game.

I noticed something else also regarding strikers. Many big teams don't have a perfect center forward anymore, there are plenty of talented midfielders. look at Brazil for example, if you keep aside Adriano, you got Robinho, Pato, Love,... which have not been convincing so far.
same thing at Argentina, they also have a goal scoring problem. they did not have a decent striker since Batistuta.