Iran vs. North Korea [Post Match Discussion]

[Martin-Reza]

^ I totally agree. It's not easy to win against an ultra defensive side. There are many examples when homesides fail to deliver against such teams. This was North Korea's first defeat in the whole WCQ campaign. That many underrate them is not Daei's fault.

If we look at the results we had against them in recent years and consider they have improved since then, which their results indicate, I don't know where these expectations come from.

[Martin-Reza]

I think there has been lots of posts here, covering many issues.
But I've noticed one trend here that strengthen one of my beliefs which is Little knowledge is much worse than no knowledge at all.

I myself am an electrical engineer and have more than one higher degrees to prove it, but I will never tell an electrician who is working on a building or any other system how to do his job, no matter how many books I've read.

lol, repped.

[Doctor DOOM]

^ I totally agree. It's not easy to win against an ultra defensive side.

you're absolutely correct.
nobody's saying we shd have won by 5 goals margin or ... .
nobody's also disputing that it is difficult to score against ultra defensive sides.

but we're saying we didnt use all the elements and routes that were available to us. had we used them, then we may have seen a better result.

how hard is it for ppl to get this simple fact ?

[yashar_fasihnia]

but we're saying we didnt use all the elements and routes that were available to us. had we used them, then we may have seen a better result.

how hard is it for ppl to get this simple fact ?

dont u think this claim u have been making all along is a bit subjective and varies from person to person??

if yes, then every coach has his right to choose certain players who others may not agree with.

i know, ur gonna come up with zareh example and how closely u have watched his every move (which btw in my opinion isnt very good, because over focusing on one player is as misleading as not focusing at all. im sure if overfocus on any other player as well, u will be surprised to see he too has had many turnovers or bad passes, etc so if u wanna overfocus on one player and count his turnovers, bad passes, times he got passed by the opponent, etc, u need to do that for all the other players as well to get a reasonable comparison of his performance)

now u might say we had alenemeh and shiri and feshangchi as other LB options which is right, but wat if we had used shiri and then not seen a better performance by him or not seen a better result than a 2-1? then wat?
would u then say that this was the TM with the best potential or would u then come and say, shiri was crap as well, and we should have used alenemeh or feshangchi to see our best potential???

point is, there is no way everyone will agree on the same TM being the best TM with the highest potential

[zzgloo]

OUR " BEZAAT " is more !!

1-Still no one has more Asian championships than us.
2-4 of our clubs are qualified to go to international championship,as we have the strongest league.
3-we have the most history of legioners in Europe.
4- Our country in sport mecca.compaire to most asians.
5-our beach football qualifies for the world championship often .
6-Our futsal just kicked ass of all big guys in the world.
7- we have best fans in the world.(admited by Europeans !)
8-The " number one " goal scorer in the history of football, is from Iran.
9-We are exporter of football talents in Asia.
10-our u-16 just got the championship.
................

We do not need to be " FIFA official " , to notice our TM is performing, so elemenatry and predictable,...

We do deserve better,and it is our duty not to be content...as, through out the world, " FANS "set standards !, not governements,nor players !

..we do not expect TM to do miracles,nor are we unrealistic.....

We just ask to be consistant with our history and place in the footballworld, what ever that is .

[Doctor DOOM]

OUR " BEZAAT " is more !!
1-Still no one has more Asian championships than us.
2-4 of our clubs are qualified to go to international championship.
3-we have the best record in asia.
4- Our country in sport mecca.compaire to most asians.
5-our beach football qualifies for the world championship often time.
6-Our futsal just kicked ass of all big guys in the world.
7- we have best fans in the world.
8-The " number one " goal scorer in the history of football, is from Iran.
9-We played football in Iran, long before 90% of the continent.
10-our u-16 just got the championship.
................
We do not need to be " FIFA official " to notice our TM is performing, so elemenatry and predictable,...
We do deserve better.....we do not expect TM to do miracles...just consistant with our history and place in the footballworld.

I agree.
I think that says a lot about our beza'at.

================

If Yashar jan had gone through the posts , you'd have noticed I was emphasizing on the use of a taller striker and how we didnt make use of this option and denied a totally separate dimension and route from our team. therefore my statement on "not leaving any stone unturned".

as for zareh, I think I've made my point clear.
we know for a fact that he's not generally performing well in that post ( yes, even after his couple of crosses and the single shot in that half ) and we need to look more closely at our options for that post.
we also know shiri and alenemeh and ... have shown to be quite capable , within the standards of LB's in Iran ( the standards which arent much to begin with. I agree with martin here ).
some may even say these ppl have shown much better games than zareh, who doesnt even play in the post ... which brings up the question of "how on earth do our coaches think he's good for the post when he doesnt even play there?"

secondly, I did say using X for Y may not change things for the better drastically. but we DO know zareh is weak at LB, and unless we try, we wont know if X or Y can do better.

btw, havent shiri and alenemeh showed better form at waff anyway?

[Martin-Reza]

you're absolutely correct.
nobody's saying we shd have won by 5 goals margin or ... .
nobody's also disputing that it is difficult to score against ultra defensive sides.
but we're saying we didnt use all the elements and routes that were available to us. had we used them, then we may have seen a better result.

how hard is it for ppl to get this simple fact ?

That's not a fact, but a theory of yours.

[maij]

OUR " BEZAAT " is more !!


We do not need to be " FIFA official " , to notice our TM is performing, so elemenatry and predictable,...

We do deserve better,and it is our duty not to be content...as, through out the world, " FANS "set standards !, not governements,nor players !

..we do not expect TM to do miracles,nor are we unrealistic.....

We just ask to be consistant with our history and place in the footballworld, what ever that is .

1-Still no one has more Asian championships than us.

You need to look at your stats again.


2-4 of our clubs are qualified to go to international championship,as we have the strongest league.

No yet , but so have other countries. No Iranian club has won the ACL yet !

3-we have the most history of legioners in Europe.

Again , you need to look at your stats.

4- Our country in sport mecca.compaire to most asians.

Nice...... That was very clear in the last Olympic games !

5-our beach football qualifies for the world championship often .

So does UAE

6-Our futsal just kicked ass of all big guys in the world.

Nice....what has that to do with football

7- we have best fans in the world.(admited by Europeans !)

Hmmmmm........ I don't think so , which European idiot calimed that anyway ...Source?

8-The " number one " goal scorer in the history of football, is from Iran.

Very true...

9-We are exporter of football talents in Asia.
You mean to UAE , and then all those poor players get abused and ridiculed for playing with the Arabs!

10-our u-16 just got the championship.
After 30 odd years where teams like Oman has also won it.


Add to the list.

- Iran (Persia) used to rule half the civilized world at same stage in the history.

- We are Muslims and have the protection of the Allmighty.


You can have a much longer list of your own creative imagination to justify your "Hagamoon" (Our right) , but this works in Iran only for local consumption. In the rest of the World , it is the teams that excel on the day and reap the results by winning after hard work , proper organization , professional management , excellent facilities, good resources ..etc...those are the teams that win honors , trohies and accolades.

You can sit from now to eternity and take about what you deserves. IF this or if that......The real world is something else.

[maij]

I agree.
I think that says a lot about our beza'at.

Well , you have certainly lost the plot there , Doc.

As one of the most critical person of all things in Iran football , why don't you also mention the shortcomings and faults of the system so that we all have a balanced view to confirm if this is our real Bezaat or not.

Or don't you believe in the "Two side of the coin" ??

Bahram was talking about the we have the best fans in the world. I guess he was referring to those in Takhti Stadium yersterday swearing at karimi and throwing bottles at him , or is he refering to those who threw seats on the pitch in Azadi during the Derby or those who blinded a soldier in Esfahan or perhaps those who nearly blinded and maimed a Nort Korean player in Azadi a few years back !

I don't know how you and Bahram measure things , to me they are nothing but myths and knowing your intelligense , I suspect even a hardcore fan like you have difficult time beleiving in it.

[Ali Chicago]

I myself am an electrical engineer and have more than one higher degrees to prove it, but I will never tell an electrician who is working on a building or any other system how to do his job, no matter how many books I've read.

Not sure if your comment was aimed at me. But if it was, i have played soccer in many youth teams in Iran and no it wasn't goal kochich in the street only. Played against players like Fariba, Changize, Hajiloo, Bayani and Fardalinia brothers, panjali, Aboldali Changiz. Later played first division amature soccer in North America.

Since 1993 I have been coaching adults, youth, women teams in Canada and USA and currently I am a licensed coach from USSF. That doesn't mean I think I know better than a pro coach, but, this isn't just books.

[Ali Chicago]

Before the Uzbakistan team and Saipa, Peter Litbarski the GERMAN head coach of the Saipa, runs Saipa players 100 yard dash about 15 times with 45 seconds to recover in between. He plays a central defender as a defenisve mid (jalal Hosseini) and a midfielder (Omid Sharifi Nasab) as a defender. But hey he is a PRO, what do I know. HE MUST BE RIGHT!!!!!! (Source is Mr. Daie in his 90 program interview)
This Uzgal, initially didn't put 4 team Melli players who play for Saipa in the list according to Mr. Daie. Then Mr. Sajaid CEO of Saipa club met with him and told him the importance of this game for Saipa. Litbarski called the 4 players back. You know what was Litbarski excuse after the loss? "They Had Rivaldo".


There are people on PFDC that take the arguments of caoches are PRO and know better to the exterme and who is X or Y to even think they can criticizer them. Mind you, no one in his right mind, claims he knows more than a pro head coach, he is criticizing certain decisions. But there are people who blare the line between the criticizem and claim "that the critic think they know more than the head coach!!!!!!", usually to justify the decision of the head coach they support. Mind you same people when they see a similar action from another coach (the one they don't support) act and argue othewise.

After reading this, can you still come back and say because someone he is a pro coach he must know better and a non pro can't criticize his decisions.

Again I am using this example to show how few people in the PFDC take the exterme the argument of "coaches are PRO, they know better"!!!!! Now I personally never argued about why player X plays or got invited or not (except Karimi and to a lesser degree Kia). But I ciriticized when I see after say 4-5 months TM defense still acts letargic on the second ball. This is an issue TM coaching staff need to work on (specifically there are drills in the soccer coaching books for this) and address it. I don't see that while I watch the TM. I criticize that, but then comes the argument "COACHES ARE PRO, THEY KNOW BEST".

There are millions of doctors and engineers and lawyers. All of them are trained. Because they went through schooling, it doesn't mean they are a good doctor/engineer/lawyer and moreover, it doesn't mean every decision they make is the best.

BTW, I don't mean to use this argument to justify the fact that some fans are justified to think they know better than a coach, probably the truth lay somewhere in the middle, like any other issue.

[Ali Chicago]

نقشه بردن كره شمالىفرق ۲ كره
كره شمالى و جمهورى كره يا همان كره جنوبى، ۲ رقيب ما براى رسيدن به جام جهانى هستند. افاضلى بازى اين ۲ تيم را از نزديك لمس كرده و شباهت ها و تفاوت هاى آنها را اينگونه مطرح مى نمايد. ساختار بازى اين ۲ تيم فرق دارد. كره شالى كيفيت خود را از زمانى بروز مى دهد كه در ضد حملات قرار مى گيرد. كره جنوبى اما بازى اش را منظم انجام مى دهد و در حملات به دقت عمل مى كند نقاط مشترك فوتبال ۲ كره اما اين است:انضباط تيمى كه در فرهنگ آنهاست، تحرك زياد و سرعت تيمى و انفرادى توامان.درباره كره جنوبى بايد تصريح كنم كه با اضافه شدن لژيونرهايش تيم خطرناكى است و به همين خاطر امارات را شكست داد.
پيش بينى درباره امارات
در بدترين موقع به پست امارات خورده ايم. اين بازى براى اماراتى ها بسيار تعيين كننده است. آنها اگر اين بازى را ببرند، شانس صعودشان دوباره زنده مى شود و جهش خوبى در جدول خواهند داشت. بازى با ايران براى امارات عين فينال است.

[yashar_fasihnia]

If Yashar jan had gone through the posts , you'd have noticed I was emphasizing on the use of a taller striker and how we didnt make use of this option and denied a totally separate dimension and route from our team. therefore my statement on "not leaving any stone unturned".

as for zareh, I think I've made my point clear.
we know for a fact that he's not generally performing well in that post ( yes, even after his couple of crosses and the single shot in that half ) and we need to look more closely at our options for that post.
we also know shiri and alenemeh and ... have shown to be quite capable , within the standards of LB's in Iran ( the standards which arent much to begin with. I agree with martin here ).
some may even say these ppl have shown much better games than zareh, who doesnt even play in the post ... which brings up the question of "how on earth do our coaches think he's good for the post when he doesnt even play there?"

secondly, I did say using X for Y may not change things for the better drastically. but we DO know zareh is weak at LB, and unless we try, we wont know if X or Y can do better.

btw, havent shiri and alenemeh showed better form at waff anyway?

so when u dont know for sure if X or Y will perform better than zareh, how can u keep repeating this claim with so much certainity that TM is NOT working at its fullest potential??? or are u trying to say the only reason we werent at full potential was because we didnt have a target striker next to rezia upfront??
btw, u have been making this claim for a long time now, not just after this game!

shiri and alenemeh did ok in the WAFF games, but like u would say about zareh against weaker teams, the WAFF opponents werent that good anyways

not that i think zareh is a great LB or alenemeh and shiri arent good enough for TM...

[yashar_fasihnia]

There are people on PFDC that take the arguments of caoches are PRO and know better to the exterme and who is X or Y to even think they can criticizer them. Mind you, no one in his right mind, claims he knows more than a pro head coach, he is criticizing certain decisions. But there are people who blare the line between the criticizem and claim "that the critic think they know more than the head coach!!!!!!", usually to justify the decision of the head coach they support. Mind you same people when they see a similar action from another coach (the one they don't support) act and argue othewise.

After reading this, can you still come back and say because someone he is a pro coach he must know better and a non pro can't criticize his decisions.

im not sure who u r referring to since u havent used any names (which has become a trend in ur posts recently..i wonder why ) but im pretty sure noone here approved many of litbarski's decision like playing hosseini as DM to to mark rivaldo and playi sharifinasab as last defender.
if u really r interested to prove a point here, i suggest u visit the disccusion thread of saipa and kuruvchi for proof of this and see if anyone agreed about this decision there or not.

nor do i recall anyone signing a blank check for every decision a coach makes. ferguson threw a boot at beckham, misaghian slapped and kicked his own player, khodad azizi pulled out his own player after conceding an own goal and decided to play with 10 players voluntarily isntead of 11 but hey, all this means that some members here think the coach knows the best and blindly approve watever they do!

i guess, its not possible for a member to agree with a coach over certain decisions like choosing alizadeh over abbasfard and giving him benefit of the doubt cos otherwise, certain other membes who have read books on tactics and have coached university teams disagree with this decision and might bring up littbarski's example to show coach's are not always right..as if people dont know this themselves and only need to be reminded by examples

but its ok, i have noticed ur posts recently, i know wat ur upto, u can continue with ur indirect tane'es all u want towards certain people who u find hard to name or quote posts from which further more shows ur motives in ur posts.

meanwhile, just outta curiosity, did daei clarify on the show if TM played 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1?? or should the members here all read books on tactics and coach at youth levels and university levels to be able to have a discussion with some members on this board who have had that experience before??

[maij]

Very nice post Agha Yashar.

The way people approach professionalism is quite intriguing to say the least.

On one hand, we have Mr. Good who says:

"I myself am an electrical engineer and have more than one higher degrees to prove it, but I will never tell an electrician who is working on a building or any other system how to do his job, no matter how many books I've read."

Meaning he has the full respect for that person that is doing the job on hand
On the other side of the coin, Ali is saying that he is a coach, so he has the full knowledge of what is going on in Team Melli and can pick up the shortcomings by whatever tools he uses for his analysis.

One thing that I have learned from my own onset of professional career is NOT to pass judgment unless you have all the facts. This is a sacred rule in our profession, no ifs or buts, no remote analysis, no speculation , no I think this happened or that UNLESS you have all evidence in front of you and hear it directly from the people concerned.

One thing that has been stressed upon lately (from a decade or so ) is what we refer to as Human factor. How people fail under stress physical or psychological and perform below expectations, this is becoming a science on its own.

Sadly, in our environment, people tend to quickly pass judgment without going through the drills. In football, it seems such liberty to pass expertise seems to be even more evident, simply because it is a popular sport and the tools are available for such and most are under the misconception is that football is NOT a nuclear science! And finally, no one is going to take them to the task.

Post event, any seasoned fan, could to a certain degree pin point certain faults with a match, player or a coach but where they fail is looking beyond the obvious. It amazes me to notice that fans sometimes dissect a team line up based on very limited or partial knowledge and certainly no reference to human factor. An example is, if a player is psychologically ready to perform in a certain match, despite his fame and skills.

In my opinion, we do need to respect the professionals. It certainly does not mean that these people don't err or they are perfect. An obvious failure is quite evident, so is success. In our capacity as fans, we can and should express our views (positive or negative) but there is a fine line between being a critical fan and acting as the coach.