What Exactly , denies full potential in Iranian football !??

[zzgloo]

We all have heard it all....
Lack of budget,facilities,Chances,motivation,management,et c,etc.....!!!

But why , we have far too many potentials who failed to reach the expectation of many...or were we all a little too enthusiastic ?

What ever happened to Borhani ,and our expectations...?
What happened to Ali Karimi, and what we saw as his potentials....?
what happened to Vahedi Nikbakht .....?
Oladi.........
Mirzapour......
etc,etc,etc................

Did these guys reached thier full potentials ? did they get close...?..Was there too much expecations, or were those ligitimate ?
How could this be helped ?

[Ali Chicago]

We all have heard it all....
Lack of budget,facilities,Chances,motivation,management,et c,etc.....!!!
But why , we have far too many potentials who failed to reach the expectation of many...or were we all a little too enthusiastic ?
What ever happened to Borhani ,and our expectations...?
What happened to Ali Karimi, and what we saw as his potentials....?
what happened to Vahedi Nikbakht .....?
Oladi.........
Mirzapour......
etc,etc,etc................
Did these guys reached thier full potentials ? did they get close...?..Was there too much expecations, or were those ligitimate ?
How could this be helped ?

well, I guess you listed them all, the only thing I add is the over expectation that some of us have. Everyone is the world is working hard and are working in a better environment and have better work ethics, so footballing world is much more competetive, compared to late 70's when our football was ruling Asia.
Somehow, majority of us think, we are the so called Sons of Cyrus (Koroush) and hence we are the best of the world. While we have a lot of history, football crazy fans, we lack in other areas (organization, work ethic, professionalisem, political problems) and we just need to accept it.

[zzgloo]

we lack in other areas (organization, work ethic, professionalisem, political problems) and we just need to accept it.

So,Ali jaan.....you agree with majid about our " Bezzaat " ?
There is some type of content attitude,that people appear to have and are not interested in advancing themselves.....just as the case with Nikbakht..but, why do many want to go to UAE, and play for more money ?
Some are content...but some are not !
While, this attitude may exist, among our legioners.....as Kia and hashemian,etc, never push thier employers for more money,or try to go other teams for more money...as they seem to want to stay put,till they are fired !
This all may be a result of growing up in families whom one ( Hoghoogh Begeer )father was the " bread bringer " ( NAAN AAVAR ) of a whole family, and family members never realy were concerened about survival !

[Mr.Good]

I would say MANAGEMENT

a good management can keep checks and balances,
they can bring money in,
they can build facilities,
the can hire the right people to do the right things,
...

[zzgloo]

If we take Nikbakht as an example......and if we look at his face these days..which is a little " Puffed up ", which is a sign of age..as well as him being over-wiegth.....and , him always missing the TM , for one reason or another...and always remaining a kid......
With, proper advices, and haveing a mature agent..he could have had a much better Football life !,for himself, and for Iran.

may be, if Domestic players had personal agents, a kind whose job was to advance the interest of his player, and got paid for his job....would have solved some problems.....
may be if IFF requires players to have agnets...for all players whom are normaly too young & immature....things would be better !
may be, the right answer..is to have " the player Union ".

[Ali Chicago]

So,Ali jaan.....you agree with majid about our " Bezzaat " ?
There is some type of content attitude,that people appear to have and are not interested in advancing themselves.....just as the case with Nikbakht..but, why do many want to go to UAE, and play for more money ?
Some are content...but some are not !
While, this attitude may exist, among our legioners.....as Kia and hashemian,etc, never push thier employers for more money,or try to go other teams for more money...as they seem to want to stay put,till they are fired !
This all may be a result of growing up in families whom one ( Hoghoogh Begeer )father was the " bread bringer " ( NAAN AAVAR ) of a whole family, and family members never realy were concerened about survival !

In short, I beleive Iran's football due to the inherent issues that u listed and we all know, can't maintain a sustained dominance of Asian football. They way we had in the 70s, or currently Japan and South Korea enjoy. This won't happen until those issues are addressed. In the mean time though, I expect due to our strenghts (sheer number of players and young people, fans, etc.) we do well in this or that tournament. Or be able to dominate North Korea in Tehran for example. Let me explain more.

Well like anything else devil is in details. I to some degree accept Majid's assertion about our Bezzat (organization, lack of professionalisem, etc.). Where i differ is when he extends that to the performance of coaches and players in the field. There are numerous examples, when African countries Togo in the last WC for example, when they lost their coach and there was literally a strike during the WC in Germany, still Togo played decent (much better than us for example).
Following Togo's example, observing Togo in the WC 2006, knowing lack of professionalisem, strucutre, etc, etc. I won't expecet Togo to progress bound and leaps (within next 10 years). However, I don't micro manage and say, oh well, since federation is corrupt or unprofessional, no field, clubs are amature, etc., then weak performance of their TM in game against X or Y team is ok.

Hope you could follow my logic somehow.
Don't know if you do stock trade or not, I play a bit. I am by no means even 1 millionth of qualified compared to these analysts that play in the stock, option, forex markets (they all have army of acturial and quantative analysis math majors), however at times I still can perform better than them, because I dont' have certain restrictions they have. From this I conclude the followings:
Does this make me better than those guys (in the long term no). I admit my shortcomings to them and know they in the long term will do better than me (long term being the operative word here).
Does this mean, I accept a worst performance from myself compared to them? Hell no, I know their bounds, which I don't have and I here and there usign that advantage (as an example of their bounds certian mutual funds or ETF needs to have 10% of semi conudctor market regardless of how the semi-conducotr business doing), I don't accept that I have to always do worst than them in stock picking.

Hope it clarifies.

[Ali Chicago]

So,Ali jaan.....you agree with majid about our " Bezzaat " ?
There is some type of content attitude,that people appear to have and are not interested in advancing themselves.....just as the case with Nikbakht..but, why do many want to go to UAE, and play for more money ?
Some are content...but some are not !
While, this attitude may exist, among our legioners.....as Kia and hashemian,etc, never push thier employers for more money,or try to go other teams for more money...as they seem to want to stay put,till they are fired !
This all may be a result of growing up in families whom one ( Hoghoogh Begeer )father was the " bread bringer " ( NAAN AAVAR ) of a whole family, and family members never realy were concerened about survival !

If we take Nikbakht as an example......and if we look at his face these days..which is a little " Puffed up ", which is a sign of age..as well as him being over-wiegth.....and , him always missing the TM , for one reason or another...and always remaining a kid......
With, proper advices, and haveing a mature agent..he could have had a much better Football life !,for himself, and for Iran.
may be, if Domestic players had personal agents, a kind whose job was to advance the interest of his player, and got paid for his job....would have solved some problems.....
may be if IFF requires players to have agnets...for all players whom are normaly too young & immature....things would be better !
may be, the right answer..is to have " the player Union ".

As with Kia or Hashemian, we don't know the details. Pro fooball is a tough place. So many issues and side issues. I am sure you remember Kia's GF issue for example and rumor (at least of ) him having two wives. In pro football, when u are at that level, keeping focus is so hard. Girls throw themselvs at you, money, fame, ego. Bahram Jaan, I was never that good, to hear 50K people scream my name, but when that happens you are acting out of a different paradigm. Point is judging Kia or Hashemian short of knowing details I think is a dangrous thing, and might lead us to wrong cocnlusions (were they aggressive or not,?). If they weren't is it due to their personality? Look how Kia dealt with Daie not inviting him vs. how Karimi did? Kia is a a different type?

As for Nikbakht, again the same issue, did you hear about the issues that happened in the Farzad Majidi's wedding or party and how certain pictures were leaked out? That is just a small part of what Nikbakht has to deal with. Plus, based on Nikbakht's personality, I dont' blame Nikbakht going after Money (going to UAE short term), compared to a potential playing chance in a Athlethico Madrid for example.

Some guy like Nekoonam is of a different caliber, has the work ethic, etc. to aim for higher. Someone explosive, attention seeking like Nikbakht works within a different paradigm, we just can't compare apples and oranges. Why do you think Sir Alex Fergusen or Arsen Wenger getting paid so much, because beside footballing tactics they have that vision to see these type of attitudes and potential in players and choose X for Man U or Arsenal vs. Y.

Do you know how many languages Wenger speak? At least 6, French, Spanish, German, English, some Japaneese and portugeese. Sorry for the segway, point is these type of coaches are good in seeing true characteristics of people and are intuitive to seprate someone like Nekoonam from someone like Nikbakht.

[zzgloo]

As with Kia or Hashemian, we don't know the details. Pro fooball is a tough place. So many issues and side issues. I am sure you remember Kia's GF issue for example and rumor (at least of ) him having two wives. In pro football, when u are at that level, keeping focus is so hard. Girls throw themselvs at you, money, fame, ego. Bahram Jaan, I was never that good, to hear 50K people scream my name, but when that happens you are acting out of a different paradigm. Point is judging Kia or Hashemian short of knowing details I think is a dangrous thing, and might lead us to wrong cocnlusions (were they aggressive or not,?). If they weren't is it due to their personality? Look how Kia dealt with Daie not inviting him vs. how Karimi did? Kia is a a different type?
As for Nikbakht, again the same issue, did you hear about the issues that happened in the Farzad Majidi's wedding or party and how certain pictures were leaked out? That is just a small part of what Nikbakht has to deal with. Plus, based on Nikbakht's personality, I dont' blame Nikbakht going after Money (going to UAE short term), compared to a potential playing chance in a Athlethico Madrid for example.
Some guy like Nekoonam is of a different caliber, has the work ethic, etc. to aim for higher. Someone explosive, attention seeking like Nikbakht works within a different paradigm, we just can't compare apples and oranges. Why do you think Sir Alex Fergusen or Arsen Wenger getting paid so much, because beside footballing tactics they have that vision to see these type of attitudes and potential in players and choose X for Man U or Arsenal vs. Y.
Do you know how many languages Wenger speak? At least 6, French, Spanish, German, English, some Japaneese and portugeese. Sorry for the segway, point is these type of coaches are good in seeing true characteristics of people and are intuitive to seprate someone like Nekoonam from someone like Nikbakht.

Ali jaan.....I do understand you well.....yet your points still do not negate ,the importance of an " Agent "....!!
Do you want to know what had been the difference between Kia,& karimi's responds to Daei ?........the answer is, The agent !!!
Kia does not talk before consulting his agent !, but Karimi does not have such agents !..may be only when he wants to sign !
Just like, NFL,and these Black players comeing out of draft...as all are naive and immature...yet, they know what to say to the media..and how to talk in interviews !!...........even know how and when to lose wiegth, etc,etc,etc....
I firmly believe, in

1- Mandetory Player agents.
2- Player Union.

Whci will result in :

A=Our cultural shortcomeings will be minimized !
B=The salary structure will be fairer !
C=There will be less " hasheih "!
D=There will be less waist of talents.
E=We get closer to professionalism.
F=We will have better " Bezzaat " !

In short Ali jaan.........
Our culture and civilization, as strange as it may be, by no means is a problem !!!...everybody has a different culture, and everybody has shortcomeings, etc,etc.....and system, and organization, """CAN "" be applied every where !!!, And "" CAN "" help any situation !, including " ,OUR'S " !!, Including " Nikbakhts " !!

[Ali Chicago]

Ali jaan.....I do understand you well.....yet your points still do not negate ,the importance of an " Agent "....!!
Do you want to know what had been the difference between Kia,& karimi's responds to Daei ?........the answer is, The agent !!!
Kia does not talk before consulting his agent !, but Karimi does not have such agents !..may be only when he wants to sign !
Just like, NFL,and these Black players comeing out of draft...as all are naive and immature...yet, they know what to say to the media..and how to talk in interviews !!...........even know how and when to lose wiegth, etc,etc,etc....
I firmly believe, in
1- Mandetory Player agents.
2- Player Union.
Whci will result in :
A=Our cultural shortcomeings will be minimized !
B=The salary structure will be fairer !
C=There will be less " hasheih "!
D=There will be less waist of talents.
E=We get closer to professionalism.
F=We will have better " Bezzaat " !
In short Ali jaan.........
Our culture and civilization, as strange as it may be, by no means is a problem !!!...everybody has a different culture, and everybody has shortcomeings, etc,etc.....and system, and organization, """CAN "" be applied every where !!!, And "" CAN "" help any situation !, including " ,OUR'S " !!, Including " Nikbakhts " !!

I never said it is our culture. How do you explain bad boys in the NFL or NHL then? I forgot the names of the guys (two wide receivers) one used to play for MN (really tall guy, play with Caulpaper as QB) and other one last year played for Texas Terrel or something and before that in Philadelphia. It all goes to the player's personality. Even the same persoanality is an important factore even in choosing the so called agent.

Iran and middle East due to its strategic location, oil discovery in 19th century, later being a neighbor of former USSR and other elements like Greeks, Arabs, Gingiz, Truks, Afghans, and later Russians and Brits and other elements fall behind. We can kick and scream as much as we want, reality is reality. There is no kaleh khar gene that we have and others don't. We are like any others. Go to Pakistan, gulf countries and even Turkey and you will see among neighboring countries we are even in better shape.

[zzgloo]

There is no kaleh khar gene that we have and others don't. We are like any others. Go to Pakistan, gulf countries and even Turkey and you will see among neighboring countries we are even in better shape.

This is exactly the point...ali jaan,,you are right on the money !!
Therefore Our Bezzaat,is not particularly any less than others....hence, all we need ,is to apply things that have worked for the others , and be assure it will work for us too ! and as you said, it may even work better at times !

[gol_kuchik]

I have been thinking about your thread for a while Bahram Jan.

One thing that got lost in Ali Karimi soap opera was the last statement
he made when asked about his return to TM at the end the gist of it was:

-- I simply don't have the stamina to play regular season, play Asian Championship and TM--

This most important and honest example somehow got lost in the media and the fans both pro and anti daei and karimi.

I think many of our players simply have not had the development program
from the age 12-14 where they go through training that gradually but slowly
builds up their endurance and stamina. This has to be done carefully and
over many years to insure the player is not burned out.

Please look at our players like Vaheed, Mehdi, Ando ..... they are very injury
prone and this has to do with improper development and growth.

We saw same type of inexplicable situation with Borhani and to some degree
with Kaabi. We may call this inconsistency, but our training used to have
been more Ghayrat based and less systematic.

Players will eventually pay the price as they expect to go through very
tough schedule and an injury prone player will simply not be consistent.

[zzgloo]

I have been thinking about your thread for a while Bahram Jan.
One thing that got lost in Ali Karimi soap opera was the last statement
he made when asked about his return to TM at the end the gist of it was:
-- I simply don't have the stamina to play regular season, play Asian Championship and TM--
This most important and honest example somehow got lost in the media and the fans both pro and anti daei and karimi.
I think many of our players simply have not had the development program
from the age 12-14 where they go through training that gradually but slowly
builds up their endurance and stamina. This has to be done carefully and
over many years to insure the player is not burned out.
Please look at our players like Vaheed, Mehdi, Ando ..... they are very injury
prone and this has to do with improper development and growth.
We saw same type of inexplicable situation with Borhani and to some degree
with Kaabi. We may call this inconsistency, but our training used to have
been more Ghayrat based and less systematic.
Players will eventually pay the price as they expect to go through very
tough schedule and an injury prone player will simply not be consistent.

gol-kuchik aziz.....another profound post by you....thanks ...
I also had noticed the points you brought up.....and also have this observation
When I normaly go to Iran, ( twice a year ), there is something I notice, which although not true all the time, but it is valid most of the time...and that is how " SLOW " things are, and how " SLOW " life is....including people's attitude, and efforts in life.....
We in the west, have been liveing a different speed life, and different understanding of what it takes to succeed !!....as our fellow country men inside of Iran, live a life of lower effort,lower trying, lower expectations of themseleves, and in general much less ambitiouse.
Now, if we look at , lost potentials in Iran, with such understanding...then:
Some times..Ghayrat in Iran has a different meaning...in which, it comes from the fact,that individual tells himself ," enough is enough " of laziness ....he tells himself...I have been too soft !....
what is ghayrat,in Iran, is just may be the admitance of not liveing a life with more Ghayrat !

[gol_kuchik]

Well hate to say this, but just found out Jabbari will be out for the rest of
the year. Considering Nekou has been unfortunately exhibiting same type of
tiredness and fatigue we saw in Karimi .... Once again it comes back to
physical preparedness. Nekou is probably the sturdiest among our players,
yet he seems to be falling apart too

[Doctor DOOM]

.... and somehow most of these occur at the most inopportune times !
like nearing or during a crucial campaign like the WC or WCQ's or AC, ... !!!
navidkia, khalili, kia, VH, karimi, ... etc.
uncanny .

[gol_kuchik]

.... and somehow most of these occur at the most inopportune times !
like nearing or during a crucial campaign like the WC or WCQ's or AC, ... !!!
navidkia, khalili, kia, VH, karimi, ... etc.
uncanny .

Uncanny? what are you implying Doctor?