Qatar-Iran

[The-Red]

Aziz, I don't see why you feel I'd see you post as attack on Daei. I don't think it was. Such posts always appeared after such games under any coach in the past decade.

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ya I might have overracted bro in my statement. sorry agha.

[Martin-Reza]

@ DD: I'm afraid you're so biased in this regard already (and I know it's easy to blame someone for being so while surely being biased on lots of stuff oneself) that you can't trust your judgement on this player fully anymore.

If you come to a point where you think the selection of a professional coaching staff which is quite successfully so far is less worth than your urine I think it is time to ask yourself how objective you still are in this regard.

I mean I also thought chosing Guiza over Raul and Bojan Krkic is stupid, but in the end it again proved that coaches aren't as stupid as we like to believe sometimes. Or at least it was proved that there are more than one way to success, even if we (as amateurs) disagree with a chosen way.

But please don't forget the circumstances. If I chose players or formations, it can be those ideas aren't worth shit, but if a team with much more experience than we'll together ever have do so, they can't be as ridiculous as you claim. Knowing that, you must start to question your observations and analysis as well.

[Doctor DOOM]

ok.
and how many chances Guiza got? and how did he perform in those chances?
you see, I'm not questioning the matter of "choosing X over Y" here.
that is a very general statement and can be applied to great many instances, some correctly and some incorrectly.
here, I am pointing at a SPECIFIC instance & example.

here, we have quite a lot of data and info to reach a conclusion. all of which I have gone over in the thread on "left back". much in the vein of questioning where zareh plays his football, in what post has he shined in the league, and most importantly how he has performed in the LB post in the past 3-4 years?

I'm afraid the matter of LB looks like this, imo:
the coach comes and acknowledges we dont have great LB's in the league. ( this much I agree with )
but here is the divergence.
some may try to look for and extract the best possible options , even if they deliver 60-70% of the duties.
while some others just give up on finding the best option for the post and merely put in someone who's been tried before ( albeit the consistent failures). afterall there are plenty of ppl who say "a known devil better than an unknown angel" ! quite defeatist if you ask me.

and I see illogical persistence on this attitude when the conditions beg for a different one. we DO have players who play at that post and some actually deliver better performances in the league than zareh at TM.
BUT, we still keep our eyes closed and submit to the idea of accepting defeat ( in "search for a proper LB" ) coz we either dont want to make the effort or are lazy or are risk-averse or dont like to experiment with new ideas or dont like to admit to our mistakes, or .... or whatever it may be !

zareh is an old and tried experiment.
and despite its failure, it's much easier to simply give up and fall back on that, than make an effort and try to experiment with new material.

I repeat, it is rather CLEAR that zareh isnt worth that post.
we SEE it in every game he plays.

you know he isnt right for the job when his BEST EVER performance at LB is when he's had 2 crosses and 1 shot , all in 1 half of a single game. that's it !!!!

why shd we accept defeat and mediocrity? just becoz it's convenient to give up ?

[perspolees]

Why is Zare the undisputed first choice leftback in TM then currently? And not for the first time in his career?

Two explanations. Daei is wrong or you are - because your assessment of Zare and the one of Daei (as Zare's situation in TM proves) couldn't differ more so one of you two has got to be wrong. I wonder who it is...

it is exactly this kind of a thought process that puts us in trouble.
life is full of choices so is our left B!!
it does not have to be that black and white of wither daei or dd are wrong, or anything dramatic as such...

reasonable course of questioning and usage of players dictate that majority of time coaches choose the players based on their club performance. it is highly unusual for a coach to pick a defender to play forward, etc. or vice versa on the national side.


have you ever thought if world turned its back on the genius of many uneducated people inventing great things for the mankind, by just shutting the door on them and saying o well u are a fan and not an expert so go to hell!!

daei ke sahle, world greatest coach could be criticized by a fan and it just happens that a fan may have better ideas here and there

whatsup with this blind fold!!?
just cuz the coach has chosen someone it does not mean that he actually is the best for that spot...flexibility, adaptability and change are teh cornerstones of a logical man, be it fan or a coach!

[Hadi]

Whats there to discuss???

Iran will play a very unorganized game with many individual mistakes and no game flow.

IF we see anything otherwise, I will stop criticizing our current TM staff for like a year.

[shayan20]

Whats there to discuss???
Iran will play a very unorganized game with many individual mistakes and no game flow.
IF we see anything otherwise, I will stop criticizing our current TM staff for like a year.

I just quote this unless you change your mind

[Hadi]

nah I wont change my mind.

I believe, overnight miracles do not happen in football.
Our team Melli might get a result in UAE but they will certainly not play appealing football.Some might argue that the definition of appealing football is vague and subjective, but still, I think every fan can realize when his team is playing good football or not regardless of the result.

[shayan20]

^^
Expect UAE to attack us right from the start. We will have to defend well for most of the game and play smartly in counter-attacks. That's certainly good football if TM play it the right way!

[Hadi]

yeah well, defending nicely and counter attacking is good football in my books.
I think I would call the way we played Portugal in the world cup good football.
Or the way we played China in Asian cup 2004.

[Martin-Reza]

it is exactly this kind of a thought process that puts us in trouble.
life is full of choices so is our left B!!
it does not have to be that black and white of wither daei or dd are wrong, or anything dramatic as such...

reasonable course of questioning and usage of players dictate that majority of time coaches choose the players based on their club performance. it is highly unusual for a coach to pick a defender to play forward, etc. or vice versa on the national side.

have you ever thought if world turned its back on the genius of many uneducated people inventing great things for the mankind, by just shutting the door on them and saying o well u are a fan and not an expert so go to hell!!

daei ke sahle, world greatest coach could be criticized by a fan and it just happens that a fan may have better ideas here and there

whatsup with this blind fold!!?
just cuz the coach has chosen someone it does not mean that he actually is the best for that spot...flexibility, adaptability and change are teh cornerstones of a logical man, be it fan or a coach!

As I put in a later reply I already mentioned there is more than one way to success, so that someone is right doesn't mean someone with a different view must be wrong.

Then secondly there is no sense is discussing this matter by trying to assess Zare's strength and weaknesses with someone who believes his urine is worth more than the idea of fielding Zare, so I chose this thought process for a little reality check.

And finally I want to reply to the turning the back on the genius of uneducated people. That sometimes good ideas come by uneducated ppl or by random doesn't mean this should be the strategy. Accept that any of us lack data, information and knowledge compared to a coaching staff. Not only that we could never coach a team with our current knowledge, we also don't even know how fast the differen LBs can sprint 100m, how their different magnitudes (lactate etc.) and other important stuff. Most of us have never seen them in training or barely ever (if even once) live in a stadium. We've never talked to their coaches and never spoken to them about tactical issues.

But yet you come simply armed with the sentence that many people without proper education, experience, knowledge or information had some good ideas. Well guess what, far far more people failed without these things.

So if someone has different ideas, he is free to share them, but claiming a pro coaching staff's decisions, based on more information and competence, is the most ridiculous decision ever, is unacceptable.

[maij]

As I put in a later reply I already mentioned there is more than one way to success, so that someone is right doesn't mean someone with a different view must be wrong.

Then secondly there is no sense is discussing this matter by trying to assess Zare's strength and weaknesses with someone who believes his urine is worth more than the idea of fielding Zare, so I chose this thought process for a little reality check.

And finally I want to reply to the turning the back on the genius of uneducated people. That sometimes good ideas come by uneducated ppl or by random doesn't mean this should be the strategy. Accept that any of us lack data, information and knowledge compared to a coaching staff. Not only that we could never coach a team with our current knowledge, we also don't even know how fast the differen LBs can sprint 100m, how their different magnitudes (lactate etc.) and other important stuff. Most of us have never seen them in training or barely ever (if even once) live in a stadium. We've never talked to their coaches and never spoken to them about tactical issues.

But yet you come simply armed with the sentence that many people without proper education, experience, knowledge or information had some good ideas. Well guess what, far far more people failed without these things.

So if someone has different ideas, he is free to share them, but claiming a pro coaching staff's decisions, based on more information and competence, is the most ridiculous decision ever, is unacceptable.

Spoken like a true Wise Man , Benazam be Agha Martin Reza....Repped.

This issue with a minority of people claiming better knowledge than the coach will never end and it is not a specifically an Iranian problem.

let me share this interesting story with you.

In an American TV talkshow , the guest was a broker , or in fact a financial analyst who worked with a major investment company. This guy's main job was to analyze the performance of companies and advice investors whether to buy such stock , hold or sell depending on various complicated events. he has been doing this for over 20 years.

The presenter then asked him ".. with so much knowledge and insight of the financial situations of these companies , have you yourself invested in any?
He replied " Yes , reasonably but not large amount of sums." The presenter said " Why not ? you could become a millionaire with your knowledge alone?"
After a pause and a dry smile the man replied" It is a different ball game when you trade with your own money"

Indeed it is......

This is an identical situation with what we have here.

[Doctor DOOM]

.... we also don't even know how fast the differen LBs can sprint 100m, how their different magnitudes (lactate etc.) and other important stuff. Most of us have never seen them in training or barely ever (if even once) live in a stadium. We've never talked to their coaches and never spoken to them about tactical issues.

you are absolutely correct here.
we dont know what goes on in the training sessions or practice or .... .
therefore I dont judge this issue at all.

But as I said, whatever that goes on during those training sessions and practices is one thing. what ACTUALLY TRANSPIRES during the OFFICIAL GAMES is another.

That's why I said I dont care what zareh ( or any other player for that matter ) does during the closed door sessions. for all I care he could be doing what maradona & pele would dare imagine.
what concerns me and is important to me ( and so it shd be to everyone else ) is how he plays those official games.

what's the point of doing marvelously during practice but failing at the exam? do they give you a degree or certificate based on ur practice sessions or what ur score was at the actual exam?

================

and majid jan, lets not twist things out of proportion. nobody here is claiming to know more than a coach .
But there are some INSTANCES and scattered issues/matters that stand out as odd, once in a while. and with repeated exposure and occurrence ppl start to notice and talk about them.

that doesnt mean they start claiming they know more than the coach. but we also have to admit the coach is also a human being, as error prone as anyone else.


speaking of financial advisors, I remember 4-5 days before "Bear Stearns" became bankrupt, a famous financial advisor , by the name of Jim Cramer, came on his CNBC show ("Mad money" ) and "advised" ppl to ignore all the rumors of the company getting into deep trouble and in fact told ppl to hold off selling their stocks as he foresees a rise in them very soon.
4-5 days later "Bear Stearns" announced bankruptcy !


does that mean I shd say I know more than the fellow ?
NO.
But ppl could be wrong too. even the PROFESSIONALS .
as they say: "To err is human"
worth pondering on.

[Doctor DOOM]

And to properly explain the matter on Cramer, here he is the bungling buffoon

[Martin-Reza]

you are absolutely correct here.
we dont know what goes on in the training sessions or practice or .... .
therefore I dont judge this issue at all.

But as I said, whatever that goes on during those training sessions and practices is one thing. what ACTUALLY TRANSPIRES during the OFFICIAL GAMES is another.

That's why I said I dont care what zareh ( or any other player for that matter ) does during the closed door sessions. for all I care he could be doing what maradona & pele would dare imagine.
what concerns me and is important to me ( and so it shd be to everyone else ) is how he plays those official games.

what's the point of doing marvelously during practice but failing at the exam? do they give you a degree or certificate based on ur practice sessions or what ur score was at the actual exam?

I see your point but I personally also disagree with your view on what transpires in the official games. In addition to the already mentioned fact that your analysis doesn't correspond with the view of our coaching staff, it also does not with the results we obtain. So I strongly suggest you instead of getting more and more radical with your stance on Zare, you should see that those two facts require you to check your view.

If Zare was so bad as you put, how on earth could we draw Saudi Arabia in Riyadh?

And then of course comes the circumstance that a bunch of people more competent that us see those matches too. So obviously they judge the performances quite differently than you do. Doesn't that make you think? And does it only make you doubt the coaching staff and not yourself?

The presenter then asked him ".. with so much knowledge and insight of the financial situations of these companies , have you yourself invested in any?
He replied " Yes , reasonably but not large amount of sums." The presenter said " Why not ? you could become a millionaire with your knowledge alone?"
After a pause and a dry smile the man replied" It is a different ball game when you trade with your own money"

Indeed it is......

This is an identical situation with what we have here.

lol, a very very major point

[Ali Chicago]

Spoken like a true Wise Man , Benazam be Agha Martin Reza....Repped.

This issue with a minority of people claiming better knowledge than the coach will never end and it is not a specifically an Iranian problem.

let me share this interesting story with you.

In an American TV talkshow , the guest was a broker , or in fact a financial analyst who worked with a major investment company. This guy's main job was to analyze the performance of companies and advice investors whether to buy such stock , hold or sell depending on various complicated events. he has been doing this for over 20 years.

The presenter then asked him ".. with so much knowledge and insight of the financial situations of these companies , have you yourself invested in any?
He replied " Yes , reasonably but not large amount of sums." The presenter said " Why not ? you could become a millionaire with your knowledge alone?"
After a pause and a dry smile the man replied" It is a different ball game when you trade with your own money"

Indeed it is......

This is an identical situation with what we have here.

Since you talked about financial issues to support your argument which I summarize as "professionals know best and we shouldn't even dare to question them".
Alan GreenSpan as the chairman of the Feds in the US was considered one of the so called genios in the financial world. Goldman Sachs is like Mecca of the financial industries you can't imagine who tough it is to get a job with them even compared to Meryl lynch or Lehman brothers.

Green Span, Goldman Sachs, Lehman brothers,Morgan Stanly, JP Morgan, Bear Sterns (hope u don't want me to continue), were all wrong. They were experts, but they were wrong. Green span in the testimony to the Senate in the US confessed he was wrong. Here is the question to you. How come these "EXPERTS" were wrong? Anyone with a decent amount of brain could have seen the prices of houses won't increase forever. Even Goldman Sachs saw the sub prime but screwed up somewhere else. Do you see my point?

If still don't get it let me state it simply:

The Truth is bigger and more complex than anyone (no matter how expert ) can figure out. At best we can get partially close to the truth and facts. So I am sure Daie (for that matter Ferguson) will make mistake. If I as the Joe the football fan call him on that one mistake, it doesn't mean I am better coach than him or smarter than him. It is possible and it will happen, I promise you. So while in general no one can argue Daie is much much more knowledgeable in footballing coaching field than all of us combined, however he still makes mistake. Daie is making 100s of decision when the team plays, he can be right on like 99 but wrong on one. If somebody calls him on that 1 mistake, it will be unfair to say, who are u to even doubt Daie.

So please stop abusing this argument of because they are expert they know better and can't be wrong. They are expert and they are like more than 90% right but it is possible they are wrong in 10% or even .01% of their decision and one as a football fan can be intelligent and question certain decisions.

Another point with your example of "trading with your own money". Does Dr. Doom claims he is better than Daie in coaching and wants to be the next head coach "trading with their own money"!!! no. He is just an analytical football fan. If he questions on X or Y, I don't assume he claims he knows better than Daie. He is a critical guy (note i didn't say negative because there is a difference between being a critic and a negative person) and will remain a critic, even if we bring Capeloo to Iran. Trying to silence any criticism using this argument of "they are expert they know better" IMO is a fallacy.

By the above statement, I don't condone the behavior of 4000 PFDC members who think they can coach better than Daie (just for the records).