Qatar-Iran

[Doctor DOOM]

If Zare was so bad as you put, how on earth could we draw Saudi Arabia in Riyadh?

And then of course comes the circumstance that a bunch of people more competent that us see those matches too.

1- LOL
plz tell me you are JOKING about that comment on ksa game.
this is what I expect from general forum fellows, not F+.

we have seen enough games to know a team/player can play horribly and still get away with it ... due to a variety of reasons such as incompetence of , bad luck for opposition or other players covering this player's mistakes and errors and ..... etc. etc. etc.

this black-n-white or "1 or 0" attitude gets us nowhere.

there are games we've played like high school kids, and have won. does that score-line on the board magically wipe away all the bad passes, lacks and failures in the game away and make the team look like barca?
so lets stay away from this peculiar reasoning, shall we?





2- that's why I wanted to know exactly WHAT do the coaching staff base their decisions on.
is it the player's league performances? zareh doesnt even play as LB
is it his training session performances? zareh isnt translating his magnificent form from training to official game.

and what criteria ?
do they not see his high number of turn-overs?
or repeated wrong passes?
or constant wrong/bad positioning?
or consistent losing his mark?
or falling behind the opposite number?
or getting passed, dribbled and tricked repeatedly?

so what is it that they base it on?
coz he's a "nice & friendly fellow" who doesnt talk back or say a word?
is that it ?

===============

3- now, why do I pick on zareh?
it's rather elementary my dear Watson. I see him ( based on his official performances ) as the weak link in our TM.
if we had another fellow, rest assured I'd have included that chap as well ( hint: sadeghi )
if he had played even a half of his games well, I'd have given him the benefit of the doubt. but he hasnt.
his bad passing, missing in action, bad marking, turn-overs, .... are constant in his games.
hence my argument.

[maij]

================

and majid jan, lets not twist things out of proportion. nobody here is claiming to know more than a coach .
But there are some INSTANCES and scattered issues/matters that stand out as odd, once in a while. and with repeated exposure and occurrence ppl start to notice and talk about them.

that doesnt mean they start claiming they know more than the coach. but we also have to admit the coach is also a human being, as error prone as anyone else.


speaking of financial advisors, I remember 4-5 days before "Bear Stearns" became bankrupt, a famous financial advisor , by the name of Jim Cramer, came on his CNBC show ("Mad money" ) and "advised" ppl to ignore all the rumors of the company getting into deep trouble and in fact told ppl to hold off selling their stocks as he foresees a rise in them very soon.
4-5 days later "Bear Stearns" announced bankruptcy !


does that mean I shd say I know more than the fellow ?
NO.
But ppl could be wrong too. even the PROFESSIONALS .
as they say: "To err is human"
worth pondering on.

Of course , no coach is perfect and throughout history I could never find a perfect one that has won every trophy continually. This is NOT the point.

Like you and me , the players , the referees and even football federations , the coach is prone to errors. But there is whole world of difference when a person is accountable for his acts and sets the team plan and his resources to face an opposition , and with a fan that has no such responsibility and accountability , hence he picks and chooses at random according to his liking and choice without the fear or retribution , accountability or being sacked.

I don't think Daei is perfect , far from it , he has a lot to learn and he is the first one to admit that fact. I also don't find anything wrong in discussing many issues regarding Team Melli , players selection or tactics in a reasonable constructive manner.

What is unreasonable though , is some of the many points repeatedly posted which expresses one person , or a group of persons, point of views and those views are suddenly turned into rulings and concrete facts. The best example is your saga with Zare.

Azizam , Joonam . Baradar ...this is your point of view , it is NOT one of the testaments. Beside , by your constant posting and reference to the same issue and player , you ARE practically saying that you know better than Daei , despite your statement " nobody here is claiming to know more than a coach ."

If Daei or any coach for that matter fails to see your views and that results in a disaster , then by all means , you have made your point and Kudos to you. But that has not happened.

Players are no robots , they have their ups and downs , football is dynamic , a team of an average age of 19 years old (Arsenal in the league cup) comprehensively beats a full strength Premier league team (Wigan) , while the Full team of Arsenal , arguably one of the best teams in Europe, fails at Stoke City by Alizadeh type of throw ins!!! ...... What does that mean to you ? Arsene Wenger is either a Genius or a fool...


I keep hearing some skeptical members here that even after Team Melli wins , they never stop moaning and groaning about the performance of the team and why the team did not play like Italy in the World Cup finals !!....Who are they fooling ???


As for the example that you have given about the Jim Cramer, it proves my point of story , that people are much more courage about other people's assets , simply because they don't lose anything (perhaps a bit of pride and credibility) but their pockets are still sound and safe.

[Doctor DOOM]

1-
Of course , no coach is perfect and throughout history I could never find a perfect one that has won every trophy continually. This is NOT the point.



2-
hence he picks and chooses at random according to his liking and choice without the fear or retribution , accountability or being sacked.



3-
...this is your point of view , it is NOT one of the testaments.



4-
As for the example that you have given about the Jim Cramer, it proves my point of story , that people are much more courage about other people's assets , simply because they don't lose anything

majid jan,
1- doing right does not always end up "winning trophies". nobody said that.
nobody judges coaches ONLY on the basis of how many trophies they won. neither are we here.
we just want our coaches to do their best and to do the correct thing. plz dont translate any criticism to ppl demanding trophies.


2 & 3 - My dear friend, it is gone way past "my liking". and it certainly is not only my "point of view"
zareh's repeated mistakes and errors and turnovers and bad passes and ... are NOT my "point of view".
they are the REALITY.

It's not that I see a wrong pass ending up with the opposition on my TV, but you see the same pass ending up with rezaei !!
it's not as if I see him failing to mark his player, but you see him covering the chap and winning the ball.
we all see the same thing.
you cant deny or ignore his countless mistakes that outnumber his positives by 2 to 1.
that is my "point of view" ?
that is the reality.

My "point of view" would be me saying "I dont like his face or his hair or the way he walks or ... "
a wrong pass is a wrong pass.
a turn-over is a turn-over.
etc etc etc.
the only matter is some acknowledge it, some dont.


4-
I think we all stand to lose a lot more than what you said , by TM losing.
remember the general depression among the ppl as well as the forward trend in our football coming to a halt after our loss to bahrain and elimination from the WCQ's ?


===========================

our martin here says we shd give credit to zareh becoz "TM hasnt conceded" or ... !!!
I wonder what he'd say if for example, the north korean who was zareh's mark that was left UN-marked ( becoz of zareh's bad positioning ) and had a very dangerous header that luckily went over a couple of inches above our horizontal bar, had actually been a couple of inches below and had scored.
or the countless times zareh got dribbled and passed in the uae games and aghili wasnt there to cover for him. and the uae player had gone in and scored.
would martin say that?
maybe he still would ( party line and all ), but I'm not too sure if he'd mean it though.

[Ali Chicago]

...
I keep hearing some skeptical members here that even after Team Melli wins , they never stop moaning and groaning about the performance of the team and why the team did not play like Italy in the World Cup finals !!....Who are they fooling ???


.

I really would like to know in your opinion, what an enlightened ( so called non-skeptical) members should do, after watching the Qatar game? Even you yourself didn't have a heck of a lot of positive things to say! Basically masst maalli the performance issue under the alibi of these were bunch of new players put together.

For the TM sake and not being accused of creating Hashiyeh, I personally despite deep reservations and worries didn't list about 7 things I saw (In my non professional eyes) in both N.Korea and Qatar game. But I am among skeptics, so can you tell us what should we do? Celebrate our great vicotory over Qatar? Praise the TM over their great Fatholfootooh?

The so called skeptics (at least I) are just keeping quiet, remain worried and praying for the Santa Clause to keep showing up for the next TM game and Mircale on the 34th street keep happening!!!!

I am not saying all of this is Daie's fault, but TM plays really poor lately. Under GN in AFC our defense was soolakh, but at least our team had the msucle to push back and score goals. With this team, our greatest chance in on free/corner kicks and magic of Nekoonam. I can't beleive you don't see how sad the situation is when Gholamreza Rezai who isn't a forward by any defenition is the greatest hope we have.

You have the archive of the TM in your website I assume. Go and look at the stats for UAEvs. TM game in the last round in UAE. Can you honestly watch that game and say TM played well? Actually Next Wed game is a great yard stick to compare TM's performance against the same team in 4 months apart.

[Doctor DOOM]

to demonstrate another side of this issue, I must bring up what daei said about "not calling up players who arent playing or are on the bench or dont have clubs" :

I can understand when a coach says that he means that player doesnt have regular "match practice" and therefore, his performance will be suspect.
absolutely valid reasoning.
even if the player trains all by himself and runs everyday and .... he still can not qualify for the criteria , simply becoz he isnt playing those official games.

but here's the kicker: does zareh play as LB in his regular football games ?
NO.

he plays as the right midfield.
so when it comes to the position "LEFT BACK", it's as good as NOT PLAYING.
yes, he's running and jogging and kicking the ball somewhere, but the issue is "he is not handling the tasks of a LB , not defending along the left sideline, not facing wingers, not crossing from the left flank, not coordinating with the CD, not .... . generally, none of the tasks/jobs of a LB"

so why shd he be picked and a player who doesnt have a club or is on the bench not ??

.... as convoluted a reasoning that may sound, it fits right

[maij]

I really would like to know in your opinion, what an enlightened ( so called non-skeptical) members should do, after watching the Qatar game? Even you yourself didn't have a heck of a lot of positive things to say! Basically masst maalli the performance issue under the alibi of these were bunch of new players put together.

For the TM sake and not being accused of creating Hashiyeh, I personally despite deep reservations and worries didn't list about 7 things I saw (In my non professional eyes) in both N.Korea and Qatar game. But I am among skeptics, so can you tell us what should we do? Celebrate our great vicotory over Qatar? Praise the TM over their great Fatholfootooh?

The so called skeptics (at least I) are just keeping quiet, remain worried and praying for the Santa Clause to keep showing up for the next TM game and Mircale on the 34th street keep happening!!!!

I am not saying all of this is Daie's fault, but TM plays really poor lately. Under GN in AFC our defense was soolakh, but at least our team had the msucle to push back and score goals. With this team, our greatest chance in on free/corner kicks and magic of Nekoonam. I can't beleive you don't see how sad the situation is when Gholamreza Rezai who isn't a forward by any defenition is the greatest hope we have.

You have the archive of the TM in your website I assume. Go and look at the stats for UAEvs. TM game in the last round in UAE. Can you honestly watch that game and say TM played well? Actually Next Wed game is a great yard stick to compare TM's performance against the same team in 4 months apart.

Sorry Ali Agha , I am not in the business of telling others what to like , dislike , what standard of performance should they be satisfied with , or what result they should aim for ......

I also don't have any exact measurement for my own criteria and level of satisfaction with Team Melii , let alone passing it to others.


Don't you think that every fan in the world wants his team to play brilliantly and win matches or championship?? Don't you think those 20,000 odd fans that support Leeds United in the third division of the English League , don't want the same success as enjoyed by the likes of Manchester United??

You said that you did not mention that 7 things you saw in both N. Korea and Qatar games ( I could have mentioned 70 myself)... So , what is the issue here ? Since when Team Melli was the perfect , formidable champion of Asia and the world so that I hope that Santa Clause keeps popping up to keep that glorious standard alive?

Team Melli is no better and no worse than many teams in the world. Hell, The England team did not even make the Euro 2008 , but that never prevented a capacity crowd filling Wembley to watch , as some dear members like to put it , a meaningless friendly. Team Melli will perhaps have one good day in 10 , it will never bother me , else I will be acting as a migrating bird looking for the perfect team to support. Well, Team melli is not perfect , and I doubt that it will be any time soon. Before Daei , with Daei and after Daei. However , as a fan , I will always support the boyz even when the chips are down. My support is unconditional , and I will never shy from defending them against those who repeatedly criticize the team.

Yes, for your information , I also get frustrated , I also get annoyed and I get disappointed as well.

[maij]

majid jan,
1- doing right does not always end up "winning trophies". nobody said that.
nobody judges coaches ONLY on the basis of how many trophies they won. neither are we here.
we just want our coaches to do their best and to do the correct thing. plz dont translate any criticism to ppl demanding trophies.

Every coach will do his best to get the desired result, there is simply no argument in that. Also , winning trophies is a simply the most obvious measurement of a coach susses.

2 & 3 - My dear friend, it is gone way past "my liking". and it certainly is not only my "point of view"
zareh's repeated mistakes and errors and turnovers and bad passes and ... are NOT my "point of view".
they are the REALITY.

REALITY the way you see it Peyman Jan, the same mistakes are also committed by all the other players including our Nekounam, but I don't see you complaining about him ( not that I am asking you to do so )

My "point of view" would be me saying "I dont like his face or his hair or the way he walks or ... "
a wrong pass is a wrong pass.
a turn-over is a turn-over.
etc etc etc.
the only matter is some acknowledge it, some dont.

OH...let me say that I have also noticed his weaknesses , but that is all relative in the grand scheme of things. We have alternatives for him , he will be replaced when the options are ready and can be better than Zare, don't worry about that. Just give the coaching staff SOME credit that they also have eyes , brains , ears like the rest of us.

Reality is 4+4 = 8
Thinking that Zare has played some bad balls and he should be shelved is certainly NOT a reality.

4-
I think we all stand to lose a lot more than what you said , by TM losing.
remember the general depression among the ppl as well as the forward trend in our football coming to a halt after our loss to bahrain and elimination from the WCQ's ?

Perhaps.... I can't vouch for this Team Melli to guarantee anything. I thought the Asian Cup 2007 squad was our best team for decades and that we will probably clinch it this time....but looked at what happened. Same thing in China 2004...... This is football , a ***** of a game, where sometimes the bettr teams end up losing.

[Ali Chicago]

Sorry Ali Agha , I am not in the business of telling others what to like , dislike , what standard of performance should they be satisfied with , or what result they should aim for ......

I also don't have any exact measurement for my own criteria and level of satisfaction with Team Melii , let alone passing it to others.


Don't you think that every fan in the world wants his team to play brilliantly and win matches or championship?? Don't you think those 20,000 odd fans that support Leeds United in the third division of the English League , don't want the same success as enjoyed by the likes of Manchester United??

You said that you did not mention that 7 things you saw in both N. Korea and Qatar games ( I could have mentioned 70 myself)... So , what is the issue here ? Since when Team Melli was the perfect , formidable champion of Asia and the world so that I hope that Santa Clause keeps popping up to keep that glorious standard alive?

Team Melli is no better and no worse than many teams in the world. Hell, The England team did not even make the Euro 2008 , but that never prevented a capacity crowd filling Wembley to watch , as some dear members like to put it , a meaningless friendly. Team Melli will perhaps have one good day in 10 , it will never bother me , else I will be acting as a migrating bird looking for the perfect team to support. Well, Team melli is not perfect , and I doubt that it will be any time soon. Before Daei , with Daei and after Daei. However , as a fan , I will always support the boyz even when the chips are down. My support is unconditional , and I will never shy from defending them against those who repeatedly criticize the team.

Yes, for your information , I also get frustrated , I also get annoyed and I get disappointed as well.

Thanks for your time, ok so you get frustrated and see as you put it and saw 70 things wrong. So can you tell me what a fan should do? Pretend it is all right and act as if "Enshallah gorbeh ast"? What do we acheive by that?

Do u really expect one to come and list 70 things that Mr. Daie did right or TM did right in order to be able to say "collapsing of the defenseive mids to our defense line" is wrong? Or offensive transition in our team is very weak?

I really would like to know. Because I would like to learn. Please teach me, what makes me a so-called "skeptical" and supposdely you or some others (i.e. Ala true TM supporter" or if u don't like that term non-skeptical")? Is it the fact that you see all those so called 70 shortcomnings in the TM and not even mentioning it, since you are "supporting" the team and the so called skeptics "don't support the team".

To me one can see X, Y, K is wrong or weak in the TM and be able to express it publicly and still shouldn't be labled as less sympathetic toward the TM.

This is beating the dead horse in a way I guess, but I just wanted to identify that saying there are weaknesses or huge problemes in the TM, doesn't make one "skeptic". Maybe the other camp have too much of a "Poliana" attitude, or maybe the real truth is somewhere in between.

As for the England example (not making to EUFA), I am sure fans and sport papers ripped the head coach and coaching staff, players, FA apart for a dismal performance. Criticizing the TM and later going and filling the stadium isn't contradictory. Your approach in this matter so much revived the attitude of Goerge Bush after September 11, when he declared "you are either with us or against us in the war against Terrorisem".

[Doctor DOOM]

REALITY the way you see it Peyman Jan, the same mistakes are also committed by all the other players including our Nekounam, but I don't see you complaining about him ( not that I am asking you to do so )





OH...let me say that I have also noticed his weaknesses , but that is all relative in the grand scheme of things. We have alternatives for him , he will be replaced when the options are ready and can be better than Zare, don't worry about that. Just give the coaching staff SOME credit that they also have eyes , brains , ears like the rest of us.

Reality is 4+4 = 8
Thinking that Zare has played some bad balls and he should be shelved is certainly NOT a reality.

1- yes, zareh makes mistakes. nekounam and kia and rahmati and ... also make mistakes. hell, even messi and ronaldinho and lampard and ... make mistakes. who said anything contrary to that ?
the issue is the frequency & number of these mistakes and how consistently they occur .
in nekounam's case, the number is rather low. and he is NOT consistently making bundles of it each and every game.
but zareh IS having a high number of errors ( that usually outnumber his positives by 2 to 1 ) in EACH & EVERY GAME.

that's why we arent talking about nekounam or kia or ... yet.

I am sure you know this yourself and didnt need me to repeat this matter of "number and consistency of errors".

I said it before. you know the player isnt working out when after great many games, his BEST 45 minutes shows 2 crosses and 1 shot ONLY !!!!!!!!
put in ANY LB from the league and I bet they CAN get as good and even better stats in a couple of games. they wouldnt need 3-4 years of playing there.

[maij]

1- yes, zareh makes mistakes. nekounam and kia and rahmati and ... also make mistakes. hell, even messi and ronaldinho and lampard and ... make mistakes. who said anything contrary to that ?
the issue is the frequency & number of these mistakes and how consistently they occur .in nekounam's case, the number is rather low. and he is NOT consistently making bundles of it each and every game.
but zareh IS having a high number of errors ( that usually outnumber his positives by 2 to 1 ) in EACH & EVERY GAME.

that's why we arent talking about nekounam or kia or ... yet.

I am sure you know this yourself and didnt need me to repeat this matter of "number and consistency of errors".

I said it before. you know the player isnt working out when after great many games, his BEST 45 minutes shows 2 crosses and 1 shot ONLY !!!!!!!!
put in ANY LB from the league and I bet they CAN get as good and even better stats in a couple of games. they wouldnt need 3-4 years of playing there.

Hehheeee... Damet garm , Peyman jan.... Mesle ke dari dandoonhatoo wase Javan va Medhi ham teez mi*****.......


Again , I take your observation that Zare average of commiting more errors is higher than others , although you have not provided any figures to confirm such.

BTW: The coaching staff analyze ever single move in Team Melli matches and they have these figures readily available for them.


Surely , with such information and data , the TM staff are actively looking for options. They don't suddenly pop up overnight as you know.

Players are normally selected on the basis of club performance. There is no doubt that Bargh Shiraz current form and position in the league has a lot to do with the standard of Sattar Zare and his other teammates.

[Doctor DOOM]

Hehheeee... Damet garm , Peyman jan.... Mesle ke dari dandoonhatoo wase Javan va Medhi ham teez mi*****.......


Again , I take your observation that Zare average of commiting more errors is higher than others , although you have not provided any figures to confirm such.

BTW: The coaching staff analyze ever single move in Team Melli matches and they have these figures readily available for them.


Surely , with such information and data , the TM staff are actively looking for options. They don't suddenly pop up overnight as you know.

Players are normally selected on the basis of club performance. There is no doubt that Bargh Shiraz current form and position in the league has a lot to do with the standard of Sattar Zare and his other teammates.

1- LOL.
that's me. no unfair criticism or partisanship when it comes to TM.
I try to be as fair as possible.

2- Indeed I have provided stats of zareh on a few games he's played , if you go to those games' threads and read them.
I divided his stats on two main divisions of positives and negatives, and then his negatives to sub-divisions of number of : turn-overs & bad passes , falling behind or being outpaced & out-smarted by his direct opponent , bad positioning , ...
and lo & behold, on all those stats his negatives were twice his positives.
btw I didnt count numerous inconsequential back passes to a player behind that serve absolutely nothing but waste time and even a baby could do.

the stats are there for you to see.


3- we know man can be biased and error-prone, as well as lajbaaz and .... ( already gone over in other posts )


4- again, this is the kind of remark I'd expect from general forum fellows , not F+.
sk1rting the issue or trying to deny the pink elephant in the room gets us nowhere.
I'm yet to see ONE person, ... anyone, to explain to me on what basis zareh is picked for the LB post. what league performance?
and in so many years, not a single person has been able to answer this.

that says a lot about the issue.

=======================================


to expound on your first point, I must add my patience is running thin with khatibi's repeated call ups also.
and I guess khatibi's next game ought to be his last chance. whenever it may come.
he hasnt been scoring at TM for a very long time. neither has he been playing that well to compensate for his lack of scoring. so when is enough's enough ?

I think daei shd seriously look at IPL's strikers and give them time to show themselves.
against n korea which suited the tall salehi ( who heads the ball very well ) daei acted illogically and started with khatibi .
based on what genius analysis ?
what manner of extraordinary intel dictated that we use two short forwards among the crowd of short defenders?
defied all manner of sense & logic !!!


does it have anything to do with both being azari and turk? hope not.
but what else could be the reason ? anyone ?

[yashar_fasihnia]

I am not saying all of this is Daie's fault, but TM plays really poor lately. Under GN in AFC our defense was soolakh, but at least our team had the msucle to push back and score goals. With this team, our greatest chance in on free/corner kicks and magic of Nekoonam. I can't beleive you don't see how sad the situation is when Gholamreza Rezai who isn't a forward by any defenition is the greatest hope we have.

funny enough, in asian cup under GN, in the 2 games we were behind (against uzbeistan we won 2-1 and china we drw 2-2), we scored 3 of the 4 goals through either setpieces (hosseini and zandi 1 goal each) or our magic nekounam (also on a setpiece).
and against malaysia we won 2-0, one of which again was on a setpiece (penalty) through our magic nekounam again!

against korea B team, we played 120 min and didnt score at all with one of the strongest squads of TM ever..

our TM strike force wasnt any stronger under GN.

[yashar_fasihnia]

to demonstrate another side of this issue, I must bring up what daei said about "not calling up players who arent playing or are on the bench or dont have clubs" :

I can understand when a coach says that he means that player doesnt have regular "match practice" and therefore, his performance will be suspect.
absolutely valid reasoning.
even if the player trains all by himself and runs everyday and .... he still can not qualify for the criteria , simply becoz he isnt playing those official games.

but here's the kicker: does zareh play as LB in his regular football games ?
NO.

he plays as the right midfield.
so when it comes to the position "LEFT BACK", it's as good as NOT PLAYING.
yes, he's running and jogging and kicking the ball somewhere, but the issue is "he is not handling the tasks of a LB , not defending along the left sideline, not facing wingers, not crossing from the left flank, not coordinating with the CD, not .... . generally, none of the tasks/jobs of a LB"

so why shd he be picked and a player who doesnt have a club or is on the bench not ??

.... as convoluted a reasoning that may sound, it fits right

just to let u know,
zareh plays LM in bargh....atleast his recent games, he has been playing LM

[yashar_fasihnia]

and for those interested, qatar played another friendly today against south korea and the game ended in a 1-1 draw.

[Doctor DOOM]

I watched 3-4 of bargh's games ( on & off . didnt watch the whole game ) and in each one he played as either the right mid or central .

I havent even seen a game where he plays the left mid.

his goals 2-3 months back also game off the right side.


so lets not bend reality.
the truth is the guy doesnt play LB in his regular football games.