Questions for Mansoor

[zzgloo]

Thanks Kamran jan.....These are truly words of wisdom.

As a person who has dedicated a lot of your time , money and even sacrificed his social life for Iranian football , and continue to do so unabated , you are the most qualified person to address such issue.

Many people fail to see , or at least appreciate , the hardship and efforts that goes on behind the scene to offer services to Iranian football community , be it in the form of difficult projects such as websites like PFDC or TMDC , journalism, reserach or news gathering. Not only this is done without any monetary return , but it all comes out of our own hard earned money , our own pockets and our own time , just for the love of Iranian football.

Instead of recognition of such effrorts , you will always find the odd ones with "I don't care for you.." attitude , underming a person to a degree of personal insult becuse he dislikes the facts , dislike the opposing opinion , dislikes the person or all the aforementioned. Now , if such person had more knowledge , regular dealing with stake holders , more contact with the real football in Iran , then it is digestable. Regretably , the less information they have the more powerful and opininated they become.

As for the Football + forum , I very much support the idea that we must keep the high standard going and be more selective. This forum should be based on quality rather than quantity posting. I have no problem whatsover discussing issues and engage in arguments , but what upsets me to a certain degree is when people mix opinions with facts. Those who consider their point of views as FACTS and give themselves the liberty to personally attack and discredit the other(s) who don't agree with them.

I , once again , express my admiration for Mansoor on his great work , and consider him as an asset to this website and Iranian football in general.

Majid E Aziz.........
You are so right, as so many do not appreciate , not even acknowledge, the amount of hard valenteer work......
I , also,express my admiration for Mansoor, and his work.......and I also admit, there is a certain ,psycologicaly anti-establishment motivations, that appeal to some members, and may like to critisize MODS, more than ordinary members !!! ( I know, it is stupid ).......,
But, There was no need for " kamran "'s interfierance !!, nor was there any reason for Mansoor to come back and explain his point of view, over and over.........nor, mansoor needed anybody's help ...
Majid jaan, ...they say " Reveloution feeds from its own supporters !!!! ".....that means, in reveloutions, those who sacrificed the most, will be killed first !!!
It is nice and fair for those hard workers to be appreciated.....but, they can not and should not expect that !.....that is not how the world works......, your reward will be , when your work is most successful........, and hampering legitimate concerns , ( even though wrong ), does not help the success of PFDC, nor would be a good reward for your, Mansoor,and Kamran's selfless contributions !
I hope, this , " Webmaster friendly warnings ", will not be a norm in future, as it solves nothing, ..I hope we are allowed to solve issues by ourseleves in a civilized manner.
I realy do not think, Hajagha,Ali-chicago,gol-kuchik,and me and some others , were any threat to the foudations of PFDC !.................may be ungreatful, ...but not a threat !!

[webmaster]

aghaye zz. please understand that PFDC is basically my home and all you guys are my dear guests here, some are more often here and some less. Some bring flowers with them now and then and some spread their troubles and sorrow. I have taken all that and respect all of you with the same token. Its in no ways a government nor an organization. I have offered this service for the love of the community and have not regretted it for a second. But I cannot just sit and see it is being abused in any ways when I see character assassination within the same home. what is discussed here is far above many other forums I have seen, but on the Ghotbi issue it doesn't need much intelligence to see its not being conducted well.

I have never interfered in anything in this forum and maybe if you count my posts here there are fewer than 5. But please don't ask me to sit, shut up and not interfere because its my right to do so. because I consider that rude.

understand that I don't want my friends to argue as much as I want them to discuss and spread their knowledge as I have let this forum be free of any moderation. But it is simple to see the aggravation in this thread.

So its not fair for you to see it any differently all of the sudden. Please understand if I wanted to interfere in anything, I could have done it long before by removing the posts so do not take this post as a threat rather than a call of authority of the host as someone has to calm down the things. this is standard practice amongst hosts isnt it?

[zzgloo]

aghaye zz. please understand that PFDC is basically my home and all you guys are my dear guests here, some are more often here and some less. Some bring flowers with them now and then and some spread their troubles and sorrow. I have taken all that and respect all of you with the same token. Its in no ways a government nor an organization. I have offered this service for the love of the community and have not regretted it for a second. But I cannot just sit and see it is being abused in any ways when I see character assassination within the same home. what is discussed here is far above many other forums I have seen, but on the Ghotbi issue it doesn't need much intelligence to see its not being conducted well.

I have never interfered in anything in this forum and maybe if you count my posts here there are fewer than 5. But please don't ask me to sit, shut up and not interfere because its my right to do so. because I consider that rude.

understand that I don't want my friends to argue as much as I want them to discuss and spread their knowledge as I have let this forum be free of any moderation. But it is simple to see the aggravation in this thread.

So its not fair for you to see it any differently all of the sudden. Please understand if I wanted to interfere in anything, I could have done it long before by removing the posts so do not take this post as a threat rather than a call of authority of the host as someone has to calm down the things. this is standard practice amongst hosts isnt it?

Thanks for careing to explain......................
I , for one, understand perfectly now.....and once again , thank you for inviteing us to your home !!,it is indeed best of its kinds !!

[maij]

Majid E Aziz.........
You are so right, as so many do not appreciate , not even acknowledge, the amount of hard valenteer work......
I , also,express my admiration for Mansoor, and his work.......and I also admit, there is a certain ,psycologicaly anti-establishment motivations, that appeal to some members, and may like to critisize MODS, more than ordinary members !!! ( I know, it is stupid ).......,
But, There was no need for " kamran "'s interfierance !!, nor was there any reason for Mansoor to come back and explain his point of view, over and over.........nor, mansoor needed anybody's help ...
Majid jaan, ...they say " Reveloution feeds from its own supporters !!!! ".....that means, in reveloutions, those who sacrificed the most, will be killed first !!!
It is nice and fair for those hard workers to be appreciated.....but, they can not and should not expect that !.....that is not how the world works......, your reward will be , when your work is most successful........, and hampering legitimate concerns , ( even though wrong ), does not help the success of PFDC, nor would be a good reward for your, Mansoor,and Kamran's selfless contributions !
I hope, this , " Webmaster friendly warnings ", will not be a norm in future, as it solves nothing, ..I hope we are allowed to solve issues by ourseleves in a civilized manner.
I realy do not think, Hajagha,Ali-chicago,gol-kuchik,and me and some others , were any threat to the foudations of PFDC !.................may be ungreatful, ...but not a threat !!

Bahram jan.
There is a local proverb that goes like this “ people always throws stones at fruit bearing tree” reflecting the more productive the person is , the more people like to rob him (or undermine him). No one bothers a guy who has no role in life and keeps himself to himself.

Well, this is a fact of life, I personally understand this and accept it from certain class of people, but after all we are all human and have certain pride and feelings and those feelings are put into severe tests with some of the attitudes observed here.

Like I said , we don’t expect anything for our work , in fact not even recognition (if I speak for myself here) , but the least that we expect in a forum which was established for certain class of members based on quality and excellence is to maintain integrity and refrain from accusations and questioning motives , characters and ethics. There is NOTHING in the rules to say that the members have to agree with the staff or support their sides.

Being anti-establishment, or on the opposition or negative is acceptable to a certain degree and in moderation. Exceeding these lines will just turn this forum into a chaotic shouting field which threatening the very objective of this forum. Agha Bahram , what would you be your feeling , if you invited a guest and he starts bad mouthing you and complain about your food ??

Thanks for your understanding and comments..

[RaginG Inferno]

If I am not mistaken you study law right? Can you honestly read the so called open letter and claim that is a piece of so called investigative journalsem? Or it is bunch of claims without any proof?

It is a valid point you raise! However, perhaps you didn't notice in that thread, that I stated:
"These accusations, if true, raise serious doubts about Ghotbi's credibility."
I didn't venture to accept any claims without proof. My personal belief is that any assertation is as true as the quality of the evidence corroborating it.

To be honest, my main concerns are with the following claims:

In particular, Is it true that you demanded $300k for your girlfriend/wife’s expenses to stay in UAE? Is it true that you complained about your girlfriend/wife’s gallery that was held last year in Tehran, and her failure to sell her paintings and therefore offending her? That she is heartbroken and needed to be compensated? Is it true that Hedayati was forced to purchase all of them for $50k so you could get her to agree for your return?
Is it true that you demanded $350k for the inclusion of your assistant (transfer agent?) in your contract?

Do you remember your claims for being part of US team as a staff in 1998 world cup? Did you ever respond properly to official publications exposing your exaggeration?

The problem with these claims are that, here, Ghotbi's personal life is apparently mixing with his professional role in Perspolis. Again, I do need to see some good evidence to support these claims.

[Ali Chicago]

Ali Jaan.....
I do not want to open a new thread, yet, I have to answer your question , atleast, in a short version.But, if you wanted, I can write a book !!
I have lived in USA, for 32 years now....and I used to critisize American culture for the first 15 years....then I started to critisize Iranian culture for the next 15 years......., and at the end, came up with your point of ,that there are goods and bads every where......But,in between, I noticed some charactoristics regarding both cultures, as well as many other cultures.....
, In general, American culture, is a " One generation culture "., and what we see today, is not how it was 100 years ago !!
any way, the long story short...................
Americans, aside from so many magnificent charactoristics they have, some of thier short comeings, is being " weak ", in one to one relations....and being weak in general, in societies that are not individualistic as themseleves !!!
These socities, require individuals to be " Round ", and versetile...and being able to accomedate, and being able to communicate, and tollerate,and survive !!!...............
American culture, is the culture of systems, and it is culture of " It is naive to talk ".....................very much what Majid believes !, .....they communicate by, never stateing opinions, and hence " never have any opinion ", totaly opposite to our culture !!....................
It is not that our opinionated culture is better....it is that ,in this particular charactoristic,American culture is a " weak " culture, as it can not stand the " heat " of Iranian multy-dimentional, challangeing, opinionated, interusive, argumentative,...and more importantly, deceptive..culture !!
In America.....You listen, and let the system do the walking.......in Iran, you talk your way to success !!

Thansk for your time and explanation. To be honest, I don't quite follow the logic of how the so called "weak American culture" in regards to Ghotbi. As a matter of fact Ghotbi wasn't born and rised in US. He is like you and I a transplant. He seemed to be a very emotional person like many other Iranians, note his reactions when PP scored for example or even his reaction when Korea eliminated Iran. Point is Ghotbi is a person in the first place secondly even we somehow extrapolate from Ghotbi to come to the American culture, he is mixed bag of Iranian (emotional) and American. So still can't see the "American Weak Character".

Iran is a less developed country. Development isn't just highrise and fancy airport or bringing foriegn technology workers to teh country. Our culture has the scars of that lesser degree of development (as it is quite obvious even following the F+ discussion). If one wants to ciriticize the western culture, he IMO better be very cautious about the startign point. Akhoonds in Iran for example criticized many problems of the western society in order to gain legitimacy (widening of gap between haves and don't haves, high divorce and crime rate, destruction of family values). But they and many other critics of Western culture (unknowingly probably) don't realize they are criticizing west without really being in a place to offer any solutions, since their own society and its culture hasn't even evolved to the maturity level to be able to discourse and dialogue with the West. It is as if, I as a first year university student haven't taken Dynamics and don't know Newton laws of dynamics and then all of a sudden go and try to learn uncertainlty principal of Heisenberg and Quantum Mechanics. We in Iran and middle East haven't even learned the ABC of a civil society yet are gun ho to criticize west (which is ok, but better be very careful). So, I humbly request you think twice before using terms like that.

We Iranian Americans who live in US are kind of gun ho when it comes to list the short coming of the American society. But don't forget on the first day of invasion of Iraq, people even high school students marched in down town Chicago against invasion of Iraq. Cyrus Vense takes US government to Court for the prisoners in Guatanamo. In Iran when Khomeini continued the war in Iraq in 1983 even up to 1988 not a peep from people of Iran against continuation of war with Iraq. Cyrus vanse takes US government to court of the violation of Human right of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. In Iran IRI executed 150 prisoners in 1982 daily and in 1987 executed political prisoners inside Iranian jails and not a word from masses in Iran. I really found your very last line of your post about system in US does the thing, somewhat hard to accept. System in US is very complex and powerful but people who are raised in this system, challenge (granted relatively) the same complex system without payign a heavy price for it.


This is a very complex issue and needs Masnavi to be written about it, these few lines won't do the justice. I hope you see what I am trying to convey, doesn't mean you need to agree with it, but see where I am coming from.

[Ali Chicago]

aghaye zz. please understand that PFDC is basically my home and all you guys are my dear guests here, some are more often here and some less. Some bring flowers with them now and then and some spread their troubles and sorrow. I have taken all that and respect all of you with the same token. Its in no ways a government nor an organization. I have offered this service for the love of the community and have not regretted it for a second. But I cannot just sit and see it is being abused in any ways when I see character assassination within the same home. what is discussed here is far above many other forums I have seen, but on the Ghotbi issue it doesn't need much intelligence to see its not being conducted well.

I have never interfered in anything in this forum and maybe if you count my posts here there are fewer than 5. But please don't ask me to sit, shut up and not interfere because its my right to do so. because I consider that rude.

understand that I don't want my friends to argue as much as I want them to discuss and spread their knowledge as I have let this forum be free of any moderation. But it is simple to see the aggravation in this thread.

So its not fair for you to see it any differently all of the sudden. Please understand if I wanted to interfere in anything, I could have done it long before by removing the posts so do not take this post as a threat rather than a call of authority of the host as someone has to calm down the things. this is standard practice amongst hosts isnt it?

Web Master Jaan;

I hope I personally haven't overstayed my invetation. The point isn't about accusing Mansoor or attacking him. It is merely asked for a higher level of quality (considering Mansoor's impressive resume). I am not speaking for anyone by myself of course, but reading through the thread, that was my impression.

Going through two related threads, IMO only 1 post maybe a little bit pushed the envelope of civility. Despite opposing points of view, I think overall exchanges has been civil criticis.

One can't appreciate of the role of volunteer staff and thank them enough. Having said that, I beleive criticizing certain point of veiw expressed by a volunteer staff isn't a sign of disrespect toward him.

[Ali Chicago]

.....

Those who consider their point of views as FACTS and give themselves the liberty to personally attack and discredit the other(s) who don't agree with them.

I , once again , express my admiration for Mansoor on his great work , and consider him as an asset to this website and Iranian football in general.

Majid Agha;

Going through both threads about Ghotbi, I couldn't see one single post that anyone claimed his opinion is FACT.

A few questioned certain methods (specifically bringing his personal life) in the open letter.

One can criticize or disagree with certain point of view and still appreciate the effort of the people who subscribe to that point of view. Bottom line, questioning certain method in Mansoor's open letter isn't disrespecting Mansoor or the work of volunteer staff I think. Honestly do you expect becasue someone is a volunteer, his point of view has to be accepted or not criticized? Criticisem and disagreement is the starting point and engine of the so called "dialectic" of progress. When all of us try to subscribe to a single point of view "Khate Imam as it was advertised in Iran after revolution", there is a the real danger.

If I have to choose between the two, I rather give the benefit of doubt to those who criticize rather than those to easily line up and accept the pervailing point of view.

[zzgloo]

Thansk for your time and explanation. To be honest, I don't quite follow the logic of how the so called "weak American culture" in regards to Ghotbi. As a matter of fact Ghotbi wasn't born and rised in US. He is like you and I a transplant. He seemed to be a very emotional person like many other Iranians, note his reactions when PP scored for example or even his reaction when Korea eliminated Iran. Point is Ghotbi is a person in the first place secondly even we somehow extrapolate from Ghotbi to come to the American culture, he is mixed bag of Iranian (emotional) and American. So still can't see the "American Weak Character".
Iran is a less developed country. Development isn't just highrise and fancy airport or bringing foriegn technology workers to teh country. Our culture has the scars of that lesser degree of development (as it is quite obvious even following the F+ discussion). If one wants to ciriticize the western culture, he IMO better be very cautious about the startign point. Akhoonds in Iran for example criticized many problems of the western society in order to gain legitimacy (widening of gap between haves and don't haves, high divorce and crime rate, destruction of family values). But they and many other critics of Western culture (unknowingly probably) don't realize they are criticizing west without really being in a place to offer any solutions, since their own society and its culture hasn't even evolved to the maturity level to be able to discourse and dialogue with the West. So, I humbly request you think twice before using terms like that.
This is a very complex issue and needs Masnavi to be written about it, these few lines won't do the justice. I hope you see what I am trying to convey, doesn't mean you need to agree with it, but see where I am coming from.

You are right Ali jaan, as this is a big issue..and needs conferences,and not just threads...........and as I said, all cultures have good and bads in them....,but I did explain in what terms it relates to Ghotbi......,

[maij]

Majid Agha;

Going through both threads about Ghotbi, I couldn't see one single post that anyone claimed his opinion is FACT.

A few questioned certain methods (specifically bringing his personal life) in the open letter.

One can criticize or disagree with certain point of view and still appreciate the effort of the people who subscribe to that point of view. Bottom line, questioning certain method in Mansoor's open letter isn't disrespecting Mansoor or the work of volunteer staff I think. Honestly do you expect becasue someone is a volunteer, his point of view has to be accepted or not criticized? Criticisem and disagreement is the starting point and engine of the so called "dialectic" of progress. When all of us try to subscribe to a single point of view "Khate Imam as it was advertised in Iran after revolution", there is a the real danger.

If I have to choose between the two, I rather give the benefit of doubt to those who criticize rather than those to easily line up and accept the pervailing point of view.

Ali Jan.


I was speaking in general rather than specifically at this thread.

[zzgloo]

Bahram jan.
There is a local proverb that goes like this “ people always throws stones at fruit bearing tree” reflecting the more productive the person is , the more people like to rob him (or undermine him). No one bothers a guy who has no role in life and keeps himself to himself.

Well, this is a fact of life, I personally understand this and accept it from certain class of people, but after all we are all human and have certain pride and feelings and those feelings are put into severe tests with some of the attitudes observed here.

Like I said , we don’t expect anything for our work , in fact not even recognition (if I speak for myself here) , but the least that we expect in a forum which was established for certain class of members based on quality and excellence is to maintain integrity and refrain from accusations and questioning motives , characters and ethics. There is NOTHING in the rules to say that the members have to agree with the staff or support their sides.

Being anti-establishment, or on the opposition or negative is acceptable to a certain degree and in moderation. Exceeding these lines will just turn this forum into a chaotic shouting field which threatening the very objective of this forum. Agha Bahram , what would you be your feeling , if you invited a guest and he starts bad mouthing you and complain about your food ??

Thanks for your understanding and comments..

Majid e aziz;

1-I appreciate your humility, for not expecting ,even recognition for your hard work, and giveing lot of time of yours for Iranian football community.....

2-I also,understand,those two threads, were going to " Naakoja-abad " !!, and can not see why, so many kept pushing !!?.....,We understood what they had in mind, as there should not be charactor assasinations,....but, I do not know why, they kept pushing !!!?to what end ?

3-I also , understand well, what the webmaster says, that,while it has been tried to let F+ be run the most democratic way !,yet, there may need , sometimes, for some one to set " Order " in place !
.................................................. ...........................................

There are some final small questions, that come to mind....as

Do members realy have no value ?, and it is all kamran's House ?

what exactly members did wrong ,here, any way ? I cann'y put my fingure on it !

Are we going to lose any members here because of this " Clash " ?....after all, there were some high quality members involved !...and do kamran or Mansoor or you , care ?

.................................................. ...............................................

My conclusion is :
........

We all failed !,

our mature,more intelegent members failed to up hold the freedom and self-controled enviroment they were given .
and " since,management could not quantify what members did against the policy " ,The manegement also failed, because, it was a fake freedom !..You can not give freedom,and have total control at the same time !...Freedom costs !, and the manegment was not prepared to pay for it !

in USA,if you call FBI,in advance, and if you do not disturb peace,and do not burn anything down, you can have signs,and you can have demostration on the street, all you want !!
Our members did not burn any buildings down, nor did they set any bombs, nor did they go to other forums,nor did they say anything contrary to PFDC policy !,,,,,,,,,,They just had a demostration !!! .........and kamran ,you,and mansoor saw that as an attack to the House !

[maij]

My conclusion is :

We all failed !,
our mature,more intelegent members failed to up hold the freedom and self-controled enviroment they were given .
and " since,management could not quantify what members did against the policy " ,The manegement also failed, because, it was a fake freedom !..You can not give freedom,and have total control at the same time !...Freedom costs !, the manegment was not prepared to pay for it !

Bahram Agha ...show me one system , organization , country that has given the freedom for people to act without any control whatsoever, then I am prepared to accept that We, the management , Failed.


PFDC is , by far , the most visited Iranian sport website and one of the highest quality news and information source. In fact it is so popular that sometimes the server cannot handle all the traffic. I think the word success is way more appropriate in such case.

Now, Azizm...we both come from the same cultural background. I want you to faithfully answer me; What would YOU do in case you invite a person to your house and that person starts criticizing your house decor , your attire , your wife's cooking and then wants to consume alchohol when you do not approve of such??

I am pretty sure that you are wise and mature enough to see where we stand in the context of what I have mentioned about guest and host.

[zzgloo]

" since,management could not quantify what members did against the policy " ,The manegement also failed,

..........

in USA,if you call FBI,in advance, and if you do not disturb peace,and do not burn anything down, you can have signs,and you can have demostration on the street, all you want !!
Our members did not burn any buildings down, nor did they set any bombs, nor did they go to other forums,nor did they say anything contrary to PFDC policy !,,,,,,,,,,They just had a demostration !!! .........and kamran ,you,and mansoor saw that as an attack to the House !

Majid e Aziz....
your answers are in my original posts !

majid jaan, while I realy am appreciative to be allowed to be here, and will not be surprized if I am banned,......but calling PFDC totaly , 100% ,your home, and give no credit, not even one percent, to the members who make up the community,and the make up that " Success " you talked about....and call it all you House , and your kitchen, is not consistant with your humble persona you presented yourself with.

A more mature manegement, would be calling it , The Fan's House !

[maij]

Majid e Aziz....
your answers are in my original posts !

majid jaan, while I realy am appreciative to be allowed to be here, and will not be surprized if I am banned,......but calling PFDC totaly , 100% ,your home, and give no credit, not even one percent, to the members who make up the community,and the make up that " Success " you talked about....and call it all you House , and your kitchen, is not consistant with your humble persona you presented yourself with.

A more mature manegement, would be calling it , The Fan's House !

I made NO such claim at all , Bahram.

I don't know how and why you come up with such ideas. What is wrong with asking , to make sure of what you claim , before you write such thing ?

I never claimed or said anything like what you are suggesting. Period.

[webmaster]

Majid e Aziz....
your answers are in my original posts !

majid jaan, while I realy am appreciative to be allowed to be here, and will not be surprized if I am banned,......but calling PFDC totaly , 100% ,your home, and give no credit, not even one percent, to the members who make up the community,and the make up that " Success " you talked about....and call it all you House , and your kitchen, is not consistant with your humble persona you presented yourself with.

A more mature manegement, would be calling it , The Fan's House !

Yes its the fans house.. its their house but I pay the mortgage and clean the mess and cook for everyone so I am the servant of the fans and not Iranian football you say!!! bebin aghaye zz, you are unfortunately acting distracted here for what reason I don't wanna know. if you want to get the concept, invite everyone to your home, then I show you what I mean. because it doesn't matter what I, Mansoor or Majeed say, I see you go on with your own thing. So no more explanation here. because a mature person should be more intolerant to abuse. and who said I am humble or any management has to be humble? we are not running a church here and we don't want to be elected for any governmental job.

I tell u if this site is down for a week due to any reason, the same fans will leave this site and go to our competition so what loyalty and what love? and since when any Iranian really cared about anything but themselves?? the fans that you do all this for, will not hesitate to leave you and go with a new one in a flash.that's very standard amongst Iranians. I have been running this site for more than 10 years and if I total the donation and help from the same members it does not become 200 dollars total which is only good for one month of the costs of this site? so how could they own something they don't even care about??