Borhani or Salehi?

[Doctor DOOM]

If you have a striker helping create loads of chances but wasting most of them (or rather all of them like Borhani last game), what should count more, the fact that he is wasting the opportunities or the fact that he is dangerous - because the chances don't all just "fall" to a striker, it's also a question of quality if you can get rid of your markers, are at the right place at the right time etc - but is this even worth anything if he barely converts?

there is another way to solve the puzzle.

lets remember azizi who was one half of the dream-pair of azizi-daei didnt score many goals either.
he created and assisted a lot of them though.

perhaps borhani shd learn to PASS THE BALL instead of taking the final shot himself.
if we pair him up with a "finisher" ( good luck finding one in Iran ), then all his dangerous moves and chances can come to fruition if he passes the final ball.


no. salehi didnt get much service up front!

[Ali Chicago]

ali jan, those guys ( motevaselzadeh, abedi, abasfard, ... ) are in pretty much the same league as salehi. none of them have anything above him.
even rezaei isnt such great shakes. he has pace which distinguishes him from the rest .... except borhani perhaps.
but he hasnt been very successful against top asian sides. 90% of his goals have come against asian B and C sides. his shots are weak as we saw in these few games.

the issue is at the moment, there are no brilliant strikers in Iran !
all we have to do is sift through the average bunch and hope we pick the right few and hope they manage to get something done.

take any player from the top scorers list in the past 2 seasons. except khalili, who's injured now, everyone else is just ur run of the mill, average striker.


perhaps we ought to look at the U-19 team's strikers.

Payman Jaan;

Motevassal zadeh from few games I have seen from him against PP and SS on live TV has good ball handling and ball carrying, good shots, good aerial which Sayed Salehi ( seen him a lot with Sepahan in AFC and IPL) doesn't.

Sayed Salehi isn't even a threat in the air, Abbasfard is. GN isn't using Abbasfard properly IMO, the same way GN didn't use Enayati in the AFC. He changed Enayati from a target man to a work horse and poor Enayati in order to please GN and all silence all the critics did whatever GN wanted from him (basically he became a offnsive midfielder on the left and got involved in pressuring and defense). Same thing Alizadeh does in SS now. GN likes both ways players and a physical players who has pace and hustles which is good for every position except a shart shooter upfront.

Abedi, Motevassel zadeh and Abbasfard maynot have the spirtiual and emotiaonal strenght to get the job done in the TM(same way Khatibi doesn't or Enayati in TM didn't), but at least there is a chance they make it. Specially Motevasel Zadeh. Sayed Salehi is a known quantity, a burnt one as far as I am concerned for that matter. It is just wasting time to work on him.

Despite what everyone says, I never thought Khalili even on his hay days is soemone who can contribute much as far as goal scoring in the TM (his stats speak way louder than you and I go back and forth about it).

Mr. Daie and Afzali of course know better and it is their decision, but I beleive time will show Sayed Salehi, Borhani, Gholam Reza Rezai and even a healed Khalil back in form aren't going to do jack for us in the rest of the WC qualification and in WC 2010 final in South Africa. Look at TM goals in the qaulifications last round and this round. Goal scorers are
Zandi to UAE
Nekoo nam to KSA, N.Korea
Gholam Reza Rezai 1 or max 2 goals
Hosseini, Nikbakht one each to Kuwait in Kuwait
Karim Bagheri 1 goal
Khalili 1 goal


That list tells the story, that our forward line, regardless of who is playing is ineffective. If I were Mr. Daie and Afzali I would have really looked for raw talent, heck if these guys are so ineffective, even bring really young kids like Mosalman (that stupid cheating Amarayee after his ban), fayzollahi. Hopefully these guys after 2-3 years become the real deal. I realize my suggestion in really radical and never will be done (due to football politics), but I wish Mr. Daie would have used his amazing independece, influence and balls (Khayeh), and get this done.

[Ali Chicago]

^ I have to agree. We have to do with what's there. Still I'd like to hear more about the general question. If you have a striker helping create loads of chances but wasting most of them (or rather all of them like Borhani last game), what should count more, the fact that he is wasting the opportunities or the fact that he is dangerous - because the chances don't all just "fall" to a striker, it's also a question of quality if you can get rid of your markers, are at the right place at the right time etc - but is this even worth anything if he barely converts?

I didn't see today's game so I don't know how many chances Salehi had, but I doubt he had 6 shots on goal like Borhani had against Ecuador.

Borhani is what they call in Iran forwarde Mokamel, supporting forward not the target forward, that is why his presence and speed was creating enough space for Daie to use his aerial abilities to the max. If you notice after Azizi gone, Daie never had that kind of success. I am not trying to demean Mr. Daie, please don't get me wrong, I am talking about the roles. It is not about Azizi, whoever who could do what a in form Azizi did, would have created the same space and time and took pressure away from Daie.

Point is Borhani ain't a finisher. Borhani and Gholamreza Rezai play a very similar style, Borhani has much better ball handling and diagonal runs, while amazingly (in a really sad way) enough a pro player like Rezai, still doesn't run diagonally toward the goal, he makes his runs deep to the end line. If only these guys got proper coaching in their youth time, they would have learned really basic stuff (how to make runs as a forward in this case).

[BehzadB]

^^

you are describing a classic "goosh". These were players that had the ability to get the ball on the sides and do something good with them (i.e make a good pass/cross to the center forward or the on coming OM).

Borhani, IMO, because of certain limitations, can never be the center forward that Daie/Hashemian/Enayatee/Khalili/Salehi type players can. If he can accept that, and work on becoming more of a creator of the assist than the benefactor of one , he maybe able to be successful playing for a long time.

However, I don't really think that he is a great passer either but he does have one thing going for him and that's speed. He is not great in much else.

If I had to chose between Borhani and Seyed Salehi for the striker (as in center forward), Salehi would be my choice.

But If my team is up and I am pulling back a little, then I would use Borhani in those situations as he can beat a lot of defenders with his speed and create goal opportunities in counter attacks. (of course the fact that he will miss most of them is another story)

[maij]

ali jan, those guys ( motevaselzadeh, abedi, abasfard, ... ) are in pretty much the same league as salehi. none of them have anything above him.
even rezaei isnt such great shakes. he has pace which distinguishes him from the rest .... except borhani perhaps.
but he hasnt been very successful against top asian sides. 90% of his goals have come against asian B and C sides. his shots are weak as we saw in these few games.

the issue is at the moment, there are no brilliant strikers in Iran !
all we have to do is sift through the average bunch and hope we pick the right few and hope they manage to get something done.

take any player from the top scorers list in the past 2 seasons. except khalili, who's injured now, everyone else is just ur run of the mill, average striker.


perhaps we ought to look at the U-19 team's strikers.

I think that statement pretty much sums up the problem in Team Melli.

Let us not fool ourselves , we simply cannot produce a striker in the class of Daei every year. At the moment , none of them are delivering properly Not Hashemian , not Rezaei , and certainly not Seyed Salehi.

The only conclusion I have of Daei using Seyed Salehi is to create some competition between the forwards and stop some of them thinking that they are the only ones and there is no threat to their position.

[Ali Chicago]

Payman jaan and Agha Majid;

You guys are missing the point, the point in discussion isn't quality of our current forwards. It is that guys like Sayed Salehi and Khatibi (a lot of opportunitiesin TM) are just duds, they won't produce anything. Whereas trying other guys at least has a glimmer of hope in the worst case.


I am surprized you guys write off Iranian forwards, or forwards who play in IPL. If a forward doesn't score, it si not just him, it is the team behind him, specially kidn of support midfield provides. How many games have you seen from Motevaselzadeh, or Abedi and I am sure a lot of others?


Let me share this news from irna with you. This is the guy (Kwikeh) who couldn't do much in SS and later in Estil Azin and now in Frankfurt. I am not saying he is gold and all, point is, when he was in Iran , he didn't get the supprot and stuff and now to Bundesliga.


بازيکن سابق تيمهاي فوتبال استقلال واستيل آذين به تيم مهدوي کيا پيوست
برلين- بازيکن سابق کامروني تيم هاي فوتبال استقلال واستيل آذين ايران بصورت قرضي همبازي"مهدي مهدوي کيا"در تيم فوتبال اينتراخت فرانکفورت شد.

به گزارش ايرنا،"لئونارد لئوني کوييکه" که در اين فصل درتيم دسته اولي "دي استردا" اسلواکي بازي مي کرد، بصورت قرضي به تيم "اينتراخت فرانکفورت" آلمان پيوست.
اين مهاجم 21 ساله تا پايان فصل جاري در فرانکفورت باقي خواهد ماند و باشگاه در صورت علاقمندي در پايان فصل مي تواند وي را جذب کند.
مصدوميت مهاجمين تيم "اينتراخت فرانکفورت" باعث شد تا اين تيم اين بازيکن را براي تقويت خط حمله خود جذب کند.
کوييکه در تيم خود که مربيگري آن را "ورنر لورانت " مربي اسبق تيم فوتبال سايپا ايران در اختيار دارد،11گل در 16 بازي به ثمر رسانده است.
"هري برت بروخ هاگن"رييس باشگاه "اينتراخت فرانکفورت" دراين باره گفت: اين باشگاه با جذب اين بازيکن ، درخواست مربي تيم فرانکفورت را براي جذب يک مهاجم برآورده کرد.
وي افزود: مربي اين تيم درخواست کرده بود که درکنار ديگر مهاجمين خود از جمله مارتين فنينگ ونيکوس ليبرو پولوس يک مهاجم ديگر نيز داشته باشد.
"ايونيس امانا تيويس " مهاجم اصلي تيم فوتبال اينتراخت مصدوم است.

[Doctor DOOM]

I wouldnt call salehi a dud.
while he was at sepahan, I agree, he under-achieved. but apparently under modir roosta and peykan's system, he has captured some sort of form and is scoring goals.
so perhaps it's got less to do with his scoring abilities and more with how he is used and what support system is provided for him.
today, all the poor guy got was one cross (he met over his marker's head and headed on target) and couple of through passes, one of which was called offside INCORRECTLY.
with such dismal service it is unfair to ask goals from him!



if I'm forced to divide the strikers in Iran under 2 categories of center forward ( daei style ) and supporting striker ( azizi style ), it'd be like :

supporting forwards:
borhani
rezaei
khatibi
akbarpoor
kazemian
I'd even add madanchi ( if ppl want to pair him up as a forward )
fazlollahi
karimian
iman heidari
rafkhahi


center forwards:
VH
abasfard
salehi
motevaselzadeh
fazli
abedi
khalili
I'd add niki to this side rather than the other, due to his built & physique
asghari

now, if you look at it, almost none of them are doing great.

out of the top 10 scorers' list, there are only 5 Iranians in the list ( borhani, fazli, motevasel, niki, rafkhahi ) !!!!!
isnt that shameful ?

----------

however, that's one side of the matter.
the other half is the kind of support system provided to them at TM.
I still maintain the TM's offensive moves lacks a true playmaker.
with no distribution and proper service to the forwards, it is unfair to ask them to score goals freely, out of nowhere.
as it is they are mediocre strikers. we are cutting their chances of success by not providing the right support for them at TM also!

to be honest, I can count games less than the fingers of one hand where the team has had a true playmaker in the middle, CREATIVE ENOUGH to make opportunities for the forwards.

- we have the karimi issue where he was discarded.
- jabbari comes in & out of the team. rarely starts and is mostly used on the sides rather than the middle where he belongs.
- same with shojaei who's usually pushed to either the left or right instead of the middle.
- zandi is played in the middle , but he runs out of steam in 30-30 minutes !
- mobaali is in the black list
- kolahkaj isnt given a chance.
- navidkia is still our of form and usually injured.
- Md Nouri is below the class of jabbari, karimi, ..... ( in MY opinion, ALL the above players ) but today, he proved my point that a playmaker used in the middle, can create chances with far more frequency and quality than having 3-4 midfielders who occasionally supply some balls , some correctly, some incorrectly to the strikers.

------------

third, there is that matter of using a single, lone forward formations that in any team with any forward, reduces the capacity of goal scoring. now, add the above 2 factors, and you'll start weeping for us !
mediocre forwards, no proper & consistent supply , stuck up front as the only man, among 2-3 defenders ?
what?
we expect them to score goals also?
hell, if they survive a game and touch the ball more than 5 times, they're lucky.
thank god we've thrown out that crappy formation at least.







so lets not break all the bowls and vases on top of the strikers' heads.
the team arrangement has as much to do with it.

[Hajagha]

1. Pace
2. Aerial abilities
3. Finishing
4. Make runs in order to create space for the offensive mids and the target forward.
5. Ball Handling (to beat its opponent and peneterate if there is a need)

Borhani has one and is weak on number 2 and 3, 5 .

We definitely talk about two different Borhani. The one I know is one of the most gifted player in Asia. He also is not handicap in air, however not one of the best. His finishing, mmmm he was good in this season, ...

[Doctor DOOM]

Let me add this in support of salehi also:
today we ddint use players that could supply crosses from the flanks either.

I have absolutely no idea why hajsafi was kept out ( was he red carded in last game? ) but khalatbari is NOT a flank player and it showed. same thing with the right side where jamshidian, another central mid, was used and later, baoo ( same problem different face ) !

I dont know why is it so hard to use the correct kind of players for each & every post.
just putting a human being in a spot does that mean he will do the duties correctly ?

we had pejman nouri, who could do a far better job as left mid than khalatbari.
I dont know whom we had on the bench, but why shd a bench NOT have ANY right flank player / winger ?
now that I think about it, our team didnt have a right flank player IN THE WHOLE FREAKING TOURNEY !!!!!!!
against ecuador it was either jamshidian or nouri on the right side!

with such arrangement and players who dont know how to consistently supply crosses to headers like salehi, it is not fair to expect much from the strikers.

[Ali Chicago]

We definitely talk about two different Borhani. The one I know is one of the most gifted player in Asia. He also is not handicap in air, however not one of the best. His finishing, mmmm he was good in this season, ...

From what I saw, Borhani can't beat a defender one on one in a tight space that is why I gave him weak in ball handling. But I guess that is a subjective thing.

[Ali Chicago]

Let me add this in support of salehi also:
today we ddint use players that could supply crosses from the flanks either.

I have absolutely no idea why hajsafi was kept out ( was he red carded in last game? ) but khalatbari is NOT a flank player and it showed. same thing with the right side where jamshidian, another central mid, was used and later, baoo ( same problem different face ) !

I dont know why is it so hard to use the correct kind of players for each & every post.
just putting a human being in a spot does that mean he will do the duties correctly ?

we had pejman nouri, who could do a far better job as left mid than khalatbari.
I dont know whom we had on the bench, but why shd a bench NOT have ANY right flank player / winger ?
now that I think about it, our team didnt have a right flank player IN THE WHOLE FREAKING TOURNEY !!!!!!!
against ecuador it was either jamshidian or nouri on the right side!

with such arrangement and players who dont know how to consistently supply crosses to headers like salehi, it is not fair to expect much from the strikers.

I haven't seen today's game yet, my opinion is based on what I have seen from him past three years. Paykan did well, for a few games when they won against the flow of the game (specially against Rah Ahan), they are going down again it seems. Sayed Salehi never impressed me any Paykan game (that he played in).

You know He is like Faraz Fatemi, Faraz scored crucial goals for SS in AFC and for that he got benefits. Sayed Salehi did the same last year for Sepahan before his injury and be ghoole Marhoom Ranjbar ke be Khodad goft "noone Meloborne roo meekhori", hala Sayed Salehi noone AFC 2 years ago roo meekhorh.

Anyhow, dont' mean to make it back and forth, time will show, I guess.

[Martin-Reza]

Well, I'm not sure if Borhani can be seen as supporting striker. Same goes for Khatibi. We tend to see any fast technically gifted and small striker as supporting striker, but I think there also are players with those attributes actually being nokeh hamle players. Rooney or Aguero are such examples.

I think both Borhani and Khatibi are actually nokeh hamle players. They don't assist that much either if I'm not mistaken.

I think "Azizi style" as DD put requires more than being small. Overview, passing etc., and I don't think Borhani fits into that trequartista profile well.

[maij]

On the subject of support for the strikers, I agree that the midfield and the backs are not really creating enough chances , be it good crosses or penetrating passes. But even in the few cases these moves were attempted , Borhani and Seyed Salehi failed to finish.

One player will fail in a team while the same player will excel in another ...we have seen this thousands of time all across the world, The question is , shall the team tactics revolve around that forward , or vice versa?

It is not a simple question to answer...

I still maintain that we have nor produced a quality striker in Iran for a long time. There have been many that come and go but mostly they are inconsistent .

[Doctor DOOM]

Well, I'm not sure if Borhani can be seen as supporting striker. Same goes for Khatibi. We tend to see any fast technically gifted and small striker as supporting striker, but I think there also are players with those attributes actually being nokeh hamle players. Rooney or Aguero are such examples.

I think both Borhani and Khatibi are actually nokeh hamle players. They don't assist that much either if I'm not mistaken.

I think "Azizi style" as DD put requires more than being small. Overview, passing etc., and I don't think Borhani fits into that trequartista profile well.

My attribution to being the supporting striker was less on their size and more on how khatibi or borhani play.

the first thing that strikes one about them is that they are NOT physical strikers. So they can not handle themselves in a crowd of defenders as most center forwards do.
they never win any physical battles for aerial balls either.
they basically rely on their pace to out-run their markers. often used as runners in counterattacks and situations where the team's defense is pulled up field.
such strikers are never used as center forwards.... unless your team is facing a much stronger team, playing defense and relying on counters only.

we forget that Roonie, despite his average height, is very physical. with very good upper body weight that cant be muscled easily.
khatibi, borhani, rezaei ... dont have this attribute.
their shooting ability also isnt as good as rooney's. rather a weak shot, all of them.

that's why I said they cannot be the center F

[Martin-Reza]

^ Physicality is a good point here, not the only though. I think any striker scoring significally more than assisting is not a supporting striker to me. I think that neither Khatibi nor Borhani are better providers than finishers.

Borhani has 12 goals and 1 assist this season. Rezaei 4 goals 3 assists. Last season Borhani scored 8 and assisted 2, Rezaei scored 7 and assisted 5. That's why Rezaei is a supporting striker to me and Borhani more a "target" striker - one more suitable to a counter tactic or to be paired with a second target striker with aerial strength, but still a nokeh hamleh striker.

That's how I see it, I don't know if there is a legitimate undisputed way to determine the striking-type.