Reality Check...again!

[purple_haze]

There's been a lot of angry comments towards TM, Daei and whatnot since yesterday and everyone keeps analyzing everything from the lineup to subs to tactics and everything in between, pointing to what they think they could do better if they were the coach. This leads me to think we need a reality check first.

I must say I kinda felt like BehzadB is saying in the other thread, before and after the game. I simply didn't except much from our team considering what I had seen from them so far and now against a very good fluid team like Korea. I have said it many times in recent months and say it again, we have to be realistic here and specially some of us have to consider the fact that we are not that much better than what we might like to think and admit we are. I mean for god's sakes, there are limitations to players and coaches abilities and we just don't have good enough material at this time with the current generation.

A look at current players available and different positions to sum it up:

GK: Rahmati - This is an area i which we have decent coverage and improvement compared to the past 8 years.

CD: Sad reality hits us the hardest in this department. We simply don't have anyone who can even be regarded as international at even asian level! The ones we have are sadly our best and they are basically the same.

RB: Here, we have several options, but we aren't using the most complete and the best current option, Khosro Heydari, simply because of personal bias and persistence on using a player once considered a huge talent, but one who hasn't made any progress in 4 years, yet keeps playing in each and every freaking match and all it has resulted in is a plethora of yellow and red cards, the fear of uncertainty about this mentally ticking bomb and the missed chances for Heydari to get TM experience.

LB: We've had problems in this area for 8 years and see a slight improvement, but if Ashjari isn't available we're back to square one.

Midfield: This is an area were we certainly have better material than the current one, but haven't been abale to utilize them due to circumstances.
If we go through them one by one:

Nekounam: The only current one who should be a given starter regardless. Still can do a lot better, but I'm afraid the quality of the other team mates has affected his game so far, yet he still delivers when needed which says a lot.

Kazemi: Right now a given in my book. Our best player against Korea.

Bagheri: Should only be used as a late sub at best. We have huge potential that we haven't been able to use because of injuries in Jabbari and Navidkia who could set us on the right track if they improve their physique.

Khalatbari: Once Hajsafi peaks, he would be a sub and if Madanchi is invited again, he'd be a 3rd sub.

Nouri: Has nothing over Jabbari and Navidkia. Same physique but not as high game level as them. Could at best take Bagheri's place as 3rd option for that position.

Maziar Zare: With what Kazemi showed, he stands no chance unless he improves a lot.

Shojaei: Unless he suddenly grows a footballing IQ, we're not gonna see so much improvement, because playing in Europe means he will still play regardless. Right now his game just makes one miss Karimi more. Let's hope and pray that he inherits half the football IQ Karimi has.

Forward: Very unclear here. We have Hashemian, who IMO is past it. Then we have 3 similar types in Rezaei, Borhani and Akbarpour who all are very good shadow strikers but lack in height and can't play as the lone striker. Even if we play with 2 forwards, they are not the best match up together against slightly better opposition. This was evident against Thailand. So if it works well in IPL it's because of weak opponents. Then we have a recovering Khalili, who still is unproven at international level and is currently the only hope left for the lone striker role or complement to one of the shadow strikers.

So as a quick sum up: Maybe there's some unused potential in some areas, but all in all, it's not much and we simply are what we are at this point of time. I know it's frustrating and many are channeling this frustration towards the coach or certain players, but please take a moment and take a look at the real world. How many teams do we have in our league that play with defined, modern tactics? Because that's when and where you can expect the tactics to have taken form in players heads.

God knows I haven't been a "Daei as a coach" fan and think he was prematurely selected for the post and they did more harm to his coaching career as TM coach by this just as they did to GN, but let's face the facts and have a reality check. He's mostly using the best with some exceptions and doing what he can. WE ARE SIMPLY WHAT WE ARE!

[Hajagha]

good post. Overall, we haven't left any huge talent without testing them. Reality checked.

[faraz]

There's been a lot of angry comments towards TM, Daei and whatnot since yesterday and everyone keeps analyzing everything from the lineup to subs to tactics and everything in between, pointing to what they think they could do better if they were the coach. This leads me to think we need a reality check first.

I must say I kinda felt like BehzadB is saying in the other thread, before and after the game. I simply didn't except much from our team considering what I had seen from them so far and now against a very good fluid team like Korea. I have said it many times in recent months and say it again, we have to be realistic here and specially some of us have to consider the fact that we are not that much better than what we might like to think and admit we are. I mean for god's sakes, there are limitations to players and coaches abilities and we just don't have good enough material at this time with the current generation.

WE ARE SIMPLY WHAT WE ARE!

1st bolded part:

FINE, I completely understand this, but let's apply to this to the way the game went.

We somehow found ourselves ahead, due to a brilliant free kick, after 60 minutes of play. So even with all of this 'Korea is fluid', 'we're not prepared', 'our guys aren't good', or whatever else, WE WERE WINNING THE GAME AFTER 60 MINUTES!

Given that predicament, I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY have the expectation that we should be at least a little tactically sound and have a plan when we HAVE A LEAD in the LATTER THIRD OF THE GAME. Are you telling me that I cannot even expect THAT of my TM, in front of 80 000 home fans in Teheran?

I went into the game very worried, because of all the reasons you stated, but 1-0 ahead in our home field - I did expect to maintain the lead for 30 minutes.

2nd bolded part:

As for the final sentence you stated, I will never accept the fact that 'we are simply what we are' - in this sense, we will never attain any of our goals. It's a passive, destructive attitude that I hope dearly none of us adopt.

Other than those two, I enjoyed the post.

[Doctor DOOM]

excellent points on the players in and out of TM, PH jan.


PH jan is right in saying we better face and accept what we have and what our limits are.
absolutely.
Our players' standards are below or just about average level , if we call the europeans above average & superior.
very true.

But at the same time, HOW we use these average tools is also important.
You may not have a very fine pen and may possess, at best, a pencil.
fine.
But for god's sake dont use that pencil to eat your chelokabab at least. USE it properly and for what it's made and what characteristics it has.
THIS MUCH we can do, right ?

we have average players for our nat'l team.
and we MUST admit our team isnt a TEAM yet , but is a collective of 11 individuals.
all these factors work against us.
Then it makes it imperative and utterly crucial that we get the SELECTION & FORMATION right at least.
No?

Not some hachal-haf based on personal agenda, or "name" or "fame" of players. If you use a player along the touchlines, you better make sure he can cross the ball well and frequently. you better make sure he can defend as well.
Dont use a fork to have ur ordinary soup ... just becoz you cant afford a fancy restaurant.

[purple_haze]

1st bolded part:

FINE, I completely understand this, but let's apply to this to the way the game went.

We somehow found ourselves ahead, due to a brilliant free kick, after 60 minutes of play. So even with all of this 'Korea is fluid', 'we're not prepared', 'our guys aren't good', or whatever else, WE WERE WINNING THE GAME AFTER 60 MINUTES!

Given that predicament, I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY have the expectation that we should be at least a little tactically sound and have a plan when we HAVE A LEAD in the LATTER THIRD OF THE GAME. Are you telling me that I cannot even expect THAT of my TM, in front of 80 000 home fans in Teheran?

I went into the game very worried, because of all the reasons you stated, but 1-0 ahead in our home field - I did expect to maintain the lead for 30 minutes.

2nd bolded part:

As for the final sentence you stated, I will never accept the fact that 'we are simply what we are' - in this sense, we will never attain any of our goals. It's a passive, destructive attitude that I hope dearly none of us adopt.

Other than those two, I enjoyed the post.

Don't get me wrong, I'm disappointed about the result based on how it actually went. That's kinda my point. Despite total lack of tactics and teamwork, we still managed to get ahead, but here's when we get hit by reality sooner or later and it happened. When you have no plan, or maybe you do, but you don't have players who actually can execute your plan and play "hardambili" either you have to be extremely lucky not to get scored on against a good opponent, or finally your luck runs out and you do get scored on, which is what happened.
If you build a house without proper foundation, without a firm base and with low quality material, it may withstand a wind or two, but it's bound to fall down when hit by rough weather.

About the second part, you got me wrong there too, but it's probably the way I said it. Ofcourse one should always strive for more to progress. But at the same time, progress, 9 out of 10 times, doesn't come without proper planning and proper buildup. Again the house example, you can try patch things up at the top of the building and reinforce, but what if you run out of materials for the top part? But if you, instead of concentrating only on the top, reinforce the bottom, the foundation, your chances are increased.
We were for some years, maybe a decade and half, spoiled with a handful of high grade material, who we used to patch things up at the top with, so it worked. Unfortunately we have at this point of time, run out of high grade material.

Many things have been said about Branko's era and his team or whatever, but I for one, felt at least more secure and more at ease wit his team. He had high grade players to utilize which he did, but at the same time he built a strong foundation (the busan team) and added the star players to the mix. Now, he was fortunate enough that his foundation of younger players had star quality of it's own and another factor was using many Foolad and PAS players, which were 2 teams using young players who were brought up within a good youth program and a somewhat defined tactical system.

My point is we have been somewhat spoiled with the quality of the generation before. I mean what can you do when our current TM players can't even perform the basics of football, like stopping a ball?

Some comparisons (the GK not included):

CD- The combo of Golmohammadi + Rezaei : Golmo with excellent ball handling skills, good technique for a defender and good pass and crosses who actually were aimed and reached their target. Even Nosrati had the upper hand against the current ones. Better in the air and speed.

Vs

Hosseini + Aghili: Very low ball handling skills, very nervous on the ball because of lack of technique and low speed. Their main and only strength is in the air, which they're only ok at and have been beaten there many times too.

RD and LD: no major change.

DM: Nekou is still there and in his prime, but his partners have been of varying quality, so basically the same. But if compared to the older combo of Bagheri and Estili it's still lower.

RM: Mahdavikia in his prime against all the current ones who've been tried- not even close!

LM: No major change, but mainly because Nikbakht's performance dropped towards the latter stages and inconsistency of Madanchi. Even more regressed if we compare with 8 years ago, with the combo of Niki+ Minavand. All in all still a drop of quality even there.

AM: Karimi in his prime Vs current Shojaei and recently the current Bagheri.
It could be a match only if they could put the latter 2 in a blender, extract one player from both and add some more speed to the mix.

FW: Let's not even go there!

My point was, with the lack of individual quality which we have always used to cover the lack of tactics, there's simply not much more left to expect right now. We have to be patient because we do have good material coming up, in form of the youth gold medalists.

excellent points on the players in and out of TM, PH jan.


PH jan is right in saying we better face and accept what we have and what our limits are.
absolutely.
Our players' standards are below or just about average level , if we call the europeans above average & superior.
very true.

But at the same time, HOW we use these average tools is also important.
You may not have a very fine pen and may possess, at best, a pencil.
fine.
But for god's sake dont use that pencil to eat your chelokabab at least. USE it properly and for what it's made and what characteristics it has.
THIS MUCH we can do, right ?

we have average players for our nat'l team.
and we MUST admit our team isnt a TEAM yet , but is a collective of 11 individuals.
all these factors work against us.
Then it makes it imperative and utterly crucial that we get the SELECTION & FORMATION right at least.
No?

Not some hachal-haf based on personal agenda, or "name" or "fame" of players. If you use a player along the touchlines, you better make sure he can cross the ball well and frequently. you better make sure he can defend as well.
Dont use a fork to have ur ordinary soup ... just becoz you cant afford a fancy restaurant.

I know DD jan and I also said that he is mostly using what we have. I said mostly because I too don't think that some of the tools, as you said it, are being used. You can clearly see it in my post. One is personal bias and two are due to circumstances (injury, form, etc).

[Martin-Reza]

I pretty much agree on the rating of the positions, just 2 major disagreements:

- Heydari is not half the player Kaebi or Gholamnejad is, he shouldn't even be in the roster in my opinion. So surely no personal bias there.

- Mohammad Nouri is an amazing player. I think he is defensively more capeable than Jabbari and therefore more useful in the current tactical concept.

And yes, I must say I was really extremely positive surprised by Kazemi. He used to be one of my favourites long time back when he still was leftback at Saipa and I tried to persuade Human about using him in TM - no success of course lol. Later I was very disappointed by him most of the time in Esteghlal and Sepahan and gave up on him, now I think he should definitely be in TM.

[purple_haze]

I pretty much agree on the rating of the positions, just 2 major disagreements:

- Heydari is not half the player Kaebi or Gholamnejad is, he shouldn't even be in the roster in my opinion. So surely no personal bias there.

- Mohammad Nouri is an amazing player. I think he is defensively more capeable than Jabbari and therefore more useful in the current tactical concept.

Well about those 2 pints, I have my reason, going by the current form.

First one about Heydari, I think he's a major factor in Esteghlal's success. He defends well, while always being involved in offense and having shown far better crosses than what Kaebi has shown.
Kaebi on the other hand, as evident, has stopped progressing, he has his speed left, but what how effective is it? His runs mostly end in 2 ways. A bit passed the half line mark and a pass back or a run to the offensive 3rd and a misplaced, badly taken cross.

About Nouri, from what I've seen so far he takes longer to make decisions and distribute the ball than Jabbari. Physically they're the same.

[zzgloo]

I also did not expect any better result.....
But for me, the only reality check is ,that , Our players do not lack any talent copaire to most asian teams....Just because we have less legioners ,it does not mean we have inferior talents.......we do have the neccessary talent to become Asian champs......the only,reality check is , they are not being utilized ........
Just look at saudi Arabia....they also are underachivers...and it is because, they like us , do not have any talents at coaching,and they do not want to admit that.

[Mr.Good]

I don't think we have a talent problem.
We have a foundation problem. We don't have a youth system to nurture the talents.

[Doctor DOOM]

On Heidari, I think Martin is comparing the "NAME" of kaabi ( inclusive of what he's done and been in the past ) to heidari !!
Heidari was a star before coming to SS ( youth teams included ) and at SS he's continued to evolve and hone his talents and be a major force in the leaders of the table

So I dont see how he's not to be reckoned with.

now, compared to kaabi , who apart from his past and "name", his form has been fluctuating in recent years and have had good games as well as quite horrible ones. That in ANY books does not and shd not guarantee a player's spot.

G-najad?
he hasnt achieved half of what heidari has in terms of performance and influence on his teams. The ONLY thing he has on heidari is that daei favors him HEAVILY ( which brings in the personal agenda into the matter )!


--------------

Nouri is good ... but not THAT good.

as PH observed, he takes too much time to decide what to do with the ball. very much like most of our players.
not necessarily his fault, as his mates have to free themselves for him to pass to them. But this is what many friends here use to accuse other players of, whom they ( read daei ) dont like.

as for his distribution skills and control of the game? He's nowhere near the likes of jabbari.
not yet, at least.

[purple_haze]

I don't think we have a talent problem.
We have a foundation problem. We don't have a youth system to nurture the talents.

Well it depends what definition we have for Talent, skill and technique.

If it's the good old "ye pa do pa" and "Layi", then we are one of the best in the world.
If it's the modern day football skills, it also includes controlling fast balls in tight areas on the move, firm, secure, fast and accurate passes, knowing how move without the ball, positioning and being able to adapt to different situations. Not much, in fact nearly none of the above can be seen from our TM players, except maybe one or two. I repeat TM, the cream of the crop, not the ordinary and average league players.

But while we insist on having the most gifted players, we see many of those things, performed by other asian players. We are known as being a dribble loving nation. Ok let's focus on that alone. Against Saudi, how many successful dribbles did our players have in the whole game? Now compare that to the number of times Saudi players dribbles past our players left and right in the first half alone. Watch the Korea match again, the same thing. Compare the number of successful individual challenges from both sides.

[Doctor DOOM]

One thing that bothers me is our of the 4 WCQ's we've played, we've scored only 5 goals.
All by midfield players !!! 3 neku, 1 kia and 1 bagheri.
NONE by our strikers.
I know ppl will come up with "modern football" and "total football" and whatnot. But nobody can deny the fact that our strikers are under-performing ... and imo, not entirely of their own fault as the team has always lacked a playmaker who constantly feeds them and creates good opportunities for them to do their primary duty of scoring goals.

We may add our other games as well ( apart from the crappy oppositions like singapore, palestine, .. ) like thailand, and preliminary WCQ's where our strikers under-performed as well.

I dont know what shd happen for the TM staff ( with coach, assistant coach, analyst, advisor, .... ) to acknowledge this and attempt to rectify it.
By doing the same thing over & over, we're not going to get a different result. You keep putting your hand in the fire, it will burn each & every time! what're you expecting? for it to freeze for once?

I dont know how a simple fact that "creativity is missing in the team" keeps on eluding guys who like to be called professionals and experts in the field and ... !
From a year ago when we used to have absolutely un-imaginative players like ando & sadeghi to when we insist on bagheri , we have been plagued with a team that has the imagination of a boiled pea!
and the results have been testament to this fact.

peppered in between we've seen rare occasions where a player is subbed in ( usually very late ) who IS more adept to the tasks of playmaking, like Nouri, or Jabbari. But those are RARE occasions and very late into games.

So I'd like to see just what does our TM STAFF "HATE" about playmakers that they try to avoid them like the AIDS virus?
their distribution of the ball gives our staff the rashes and heart palpitations?
their creative passing to strikers causes uncontrolled fits of coughing and wheezing?
their through passing cuts like a knife?
what?
why does TM dislike playmakers?

some players are born talented. some get success through hard work.
no need for one sect to be so against the other.


===================

for a coach who allows a 37 year old player play out the 90 minutes ( when he's been the poorest player on the pitch for more than 70 minutes of it), I think he can surely play this guy too ( without raising his age , which is much much younger ) :


http://www.kayhanvarzeshi.com/871130/index.htm