The upcoming IRAN - SAUDI game

[Doctor DOOM]

In case ppl want to talk or bring in information regarding the upcoming game.
I found hamid's post in general forum quite informative, so I'll start with this:

Where did you read that? I think it is still debated between him and
Scholari. Either way, Al Johar will remain as technical adviser to SA
team.

I happened to watch Saudi games (except for U.A.E) and I can
say they got very unlucky against Korea (playing with only 10 men for
almost the entire second half). Both of S.K scores came after Saudi
ejection the second goal in 90+ minute. We all saw Iran-SA game and
I don't need to comment on that, but against North Korea, also it could
have gone either way. The last 10-15 minutes of that game had such
fast pace yet I did not see Saudis running out of steam, indicating their
physical preparation for this game.

To make a long story short, don't write them off. They will come out
very strong in the second half, for several reasons:

1-Their team consists of domestic player, so any new coach can have
the team to prepare at will

2-Both of the candidates for coach are good coaches. Piseiro has great
credentials and better already have coached in S.A so he is familiar with
players and S.A. (Either one, any Asian team would love to have as
their national team coach).

3-AlJohar has done what is best for S.A: to step aside but really to become
an ASSISTANT coach to the next SA coach. So the next coach will
definitely not start from zero.

4-S.A is only 2 points behind us, but the game against Iran is definitely
the same as the U.A.E game was against Iran, do or die!

I hope they are not underestimated , or we could easily be looking at a 4th place position in the table.

very important issues raised here that our TM staff shd bear in mind and this time, unlike the korean game, do their analysis correctly.

1- we cant act ignorant and think becoz they changed coaches, they arent going to be cohesive or have a system or strategy.
having all their players available at all time, and aljohar being a part of the staff who knows the players very well, mean they will be a formidable opponent regardless of change in staff.

2- their physical preparedness also is another key that Daei shd not ignore. Some of our players do tend to run out of gas ( and I'm not even talking about the likes of bagheri, whom I sincerely hope will NOT start the game ) and that could be an issue for our team who HAS TO WIN THIS HOME GAME.

3- Both teams face a "do or die" situation so I assume both SHOULD be more aggressive in their system, formation and player selection.
But we may have the upper hand that it is in IRAN and saudi's best player is suspended.
so the board is set for us to take advantage of it .... if only we have the guts & intellect to do so.
saudi may play a more open, offensive game, which COULD play to our hands if we pick the right players and know how to use the moments and situations well.

we certainly have the players.
we also have the time to correct a few problems like stamina or coordination among some zones like defense, midfield. I assume IPL will be suspended a week before ( anything less than that is unacceptable )
So Daei could be in pretty good shape by 2-3 days prior to the game.


4- saudi has both speedy players as well as technical ones.
very much like Iran. But they usually have better teamwork and definitely display higher professional attitude. So we shd raise our quality and cohesion for this game. it's imperative.

I think they have a new GK and he wasnt very impressive against Iran. is he still their #1?

Anyone has info on their defenders or striker ... basically individual players' characteristics and style?

[BehzadB]

You wana go to the WC, you gotta beat 3 of the teams in your group.. we have beaten 1 so far..

we need 7/8 points in remaining games to advance.. beat KSA and UAE and 1 point out of the Koreas, and that should do it. (I am assuming that North Korea will not win all of their remaining games)

although this is a must win for KSA, it is also a must win for us. sort of.. If KSA beats us, we be behind them and they will control their own destiny (in relation to us) and we have to hope for them to give up points in their remaining games.. we can still beat North Korea and UAE and get a tie in South Korea and get the 7 points that way, but then still we have to hope for KSA to drop points...

losing to KSA will turn up the heat on our team, big time.. A tie in Tehran is what I am predicting.. but a win will really be sweet.. we would practically knock them out of the WC..

[purple_haze]

.. A tie in Tehran is what I am predicting....

Same here, unfortunately.

[Doctor DOOM]

A tie in Iran is next to a disaster!
7 points will leave a lot of room for "amma & agar"s and possibilties that things go against us.
8 points is better, but no guarantees.
I'd say 9 points ( 3 wins out of 4 games ) ought to guarantee us direct passage as 1st or 2nd.


yes, with a tie against ksa, "mathematically" , we'd not be out of running. But nothing works purely on maths, does it?
Coz if a team cannot manage to win its home games, what hope would it have to beat N korea and S Korea AWAY ?
again, mathematically, anything is possible. But in reality winning away in korea?

We MUST treat this game as do or die.
no more laxity, Mr Daei. You can either go for it, or allow others to do it. YOU have access to all the tools you'd need to overcome this obstacle. HOW you decide to use them is your responsibility.

you must leave NO stone un-turned.
enough with personal matters. If a player like kazemian can help the team, have the maturity and patriotism to call him in and make use of him.
One of the main things that really turned my opinion on GN ( as I wasnt so thrilled about him n the beginning ... being an esteghlali and all ) was when he showed he is mature and patriotic enough to put aside his personal feud with Samereh and invited him ... not once, but several times. ( It was to samereh's immaturity and idiocy that he didnt agree ). That was a major point that warmed me to GN.
High time Daei showed this at TM ... especially at this stage.
the present TM is proving to be deficient in many departments. we CAN surely make use of players who are used to playing arabs day in and day out. Like madanchi , kazemian and mobaali.

madanchi , as our left flank is pretty much useless in terms of service to our strikers.

kazemian , the same story with our right flank

mobaali, as we seem to lack creativity and imagination in our moves forward by placing non playmakers like bagheri, ... in the middle.
We also lack in shooting and despite neku's free kicks, we are still deficient in direct set pieces, which I predict we'd get many against the saudis.


---------------------

Havent watched ksa games recently, but I was wondering if their defense is suspect to pacey and quick forwards like borhani & rezaei.
Coz if they are, I'd suggest from TODAY, we must concentrate and work on such forwards.

[Hadi]

a tie = forget about direct qualification

[The-Red]

You wana go to the WC, you gotta beat 3 of the teams in your group.. we have beaten 1 so far..

we need 7/8 points in remaining games to advance.. beat KSA and UAE and 1 point out of the Koreas, and that should do it. (I am assuming that North Korea will not win all of their remaining games)

although this is a must win for KSA, it is also a must win for us. sort of.. If KSA beats us, we be behind them and they will control their own destiny (in relation to us) and we have to hope for them to give up points in their remaining games.. we can still beat North Korea and UAE and get a tie in South Korea and get the 7 points that way, but then still we have to hope for KSA to drop points...

losing to KSA will turn up the heat on our team, big time.. A tie in Tehran is what I am predicting.. but a win will really be sweet.. we would practically knock them out of the WC..

pretty much agree and just to add that we should qualify with 7 points, that can come with 4 from Nkorea, KSA and 3 from the UAE....so we tie KSA, the must beat Nkorea, beat KSA, less pressure against Nkorea....lose to KSA at home (God forbids), must beat Nkorea and hope that we finish 3rd in the group...

Same here, unfortunately.

same here

[shayan20]

well Saudi is not SK.
Im sure we have relatively an easier match, also considering the fact we always play good against saudis:

Home games are MUST WINS, let SK game be a lesson for us.

[Martin-Reza]

I don't know too much about the Saudi team, but here's what I know:

Goalkeeper: They changed the keeper right after Iran match in which nr. 12 Mansour Al Naje had been in goal and nr. 1 Waleed Ali was on the bench, ever since then it is the other way round.

Defense: Their left fullback and vice-captain Hussain Suleimani (nr. 13) is the only foreign based player they have, playing in Switzerland. Against Iran I didn't find him particulary impressive. The right fullback, nr. 2 Abdullah Shuhail, afterwards becoming nr. 7 against DPR, looked far more dangerous and came forward very often. It was also him who assisted the goal. In central defense Osama Hawsawi (nr. 4) seems to be fixed, Redha Tukar (nr. 3) is a physically very strong player and seems to be the other fixed player. He only played in two games, including Iran, but was not in the roster in the other two games at all. In those matches, Majed Al Marshadi played (nr. 5), who sat on the bench when Tukar played. Tukar was suspended in one of the games, so I assume he was out injured in the other one and usually builds the heart of the defense with Osama Hawsawi.

Midfield: The midfield is pretty strong, but they lineup was changed very much from the first game. I know Abdoh Autef and Ahmed Ateef, who are actually brothers, but interestingly spelled differently in English by FIFA. They both can play in central midfield or on the wing. Also of course Al Shloub is a sizzling leftwinger. Khaled Aziz was the defensive midfielder against Iran, he played all other matches but the last, but he was suspended there. Interestingly both Otaif (that's how Wikipedia spells them) brothers and Shloub didn't start against DPR Korea, only Abdoh Otaif was subbed in late - the other two players weren't even in the roster. Hard to say if they all lost their spot or if there were other reason to exclude them (injuries?). Meanwhile veteran midfielder Mohammed Noor was called back for the DPR match.

Strikers: Saudi Arabia have 3 major strikers:
- Yasser Al Qahtani, who moer is a treqaurtista in my eyes, but is undoubtedly a quality player who is well in positioning, finishing, dribbling, passing and even is an areal threat. Fortunately, if I counted correctly, he will be suspended for the Iran match after picking up his second yellow of the competition against DPR Korea.
- Malek Mouath Hawsawi: This guy is extremely fast. Nothing else, just fast in my opinion. He tends to waste big chances, something like a Borhani in my eyes. Started as midfielder and was moved upfront, and although he lacks the finishing touch, he simply is hard to stop and therefore regulary scores.
- Saad Al Harthi: He is more the classic center forward with good goal instinct. He already showed that against us, scoring the goal in Riyadh.
Both Qahtani and Mouath had been missing in Riyadh due to injuries, the first came on as sub but wasn't in good shape. Beside the three they tried Fizal Bin Sultan and youngster Naif Hazazi, but both don't have the quality of the other three.

Overall I'd say the lineup of KSA would usually be sth like:
---------------------------Waleed Ali---------------------------
Shuhail-----------Hawsawi------------Tukar------------Suleimani
Autef-------------Aziz-------------Noor/Atef-------------Shloub
---------------------Qahtani-----Mouath/Harthi-----------------

I'm just not sure about the midfield, which changed a lot in the four games.

[zzgloo]

The Areas TM should work on more, are so many....
Central defense,forwards,midfield,corners....just about everywhere.....
I however,beleive,the single most important one is " Center midfield "....
In which, it seems, TM specialy with Ali daei, " shys away " ,from attacking the opponanats " Righ down the center " toward the middle of the box....That is to say, far too offensive initiations goes through the sides,and crossing the balls !!which do not suit the talents we have ....and TM gives up the Area, equal size to 18 meter BOX right in front of the 18 meter BOX........
If, Ali daei could have designed some offensive set ups, right down the middle,that would defenetly ,not only created direct dangers to the opponanats but also,would have opened up the crosses and made them more meaningful.
Players such as ali karimi,or Navidkia would have been appropreate for such strategies.and VH could have been used at what he does best,which is a distributing player right inside the opponanats 18.

[Doctor DOOM]

Thanks Martin. That is valuable info.

Now, if we could get more on the style or preferred tactics of saudis ( home or away doesnt matter, coz it's a crucial game for them so they'd play more offensive than normal ), things like how they have conceded , what type of strikes have proved dangerous on their goal?
when and how do they score their goals?
How is their flank and wing game?
do they cross frequently?
how do their defenders react to dribbles outside their 18... or to crosses coming in from flanks?
how does its midfield react to being man-marked ?
... etc etc etc. then we could sum it up and pass it on to Human.


coz going by south korea game, it is clear they didnt really analyse S korea's strengths and actually TM played TO S Korea's strong points: surrendering the flanks and keeping an immobile & aging central mid ( bagheri ).
We also didnt do our homework on SK's weaknesses, otherwise, as Mohassess had expressly told Iranian media and "90", they were suspect in their central defense and their keeper wasnt exactly fit. So we could have put more pressure on their central defense by keeping 2 forwards and also tried more shots against a less than fit Lee Won Jae!
The reason I brought SK game into this is to prove TM staff didnt recognize SK's strengths and weaknesses. Lets not repeat the same mistake against saudis.


------------------

some may say coaches like to ignore the opponent's characteristics and plan on their own team's strengths. Fine theory. But that's for teams that PLAY football properly, have proper teamwork, have proper strategy and style and ... .
The fact is we still DO NOT!
So as the next best thing, it is better to recognize the opponent's plus and minus characters and try to utilize those. hence this thread.

[Kasra.]

Here is a copy of my post in the football forum

--------------------------- Rahmati ---------------------------- (GK)
---------------- Hosseini ------------ Montazeri --------------- (CB)
--- Kaebi ------------------------------------------- Ashjari --- (SB)
----------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------- Nekounam -------------------------- (DMF)
- Mahdavikia --------------------------------------- Madanchi -(SMF)
- -------------------------- Jabbari ---------------------------- (AMF)
----------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- Shojaei ------------------------------------------ (Supporting Striker)
-------------------------------------- Borhani ------------------ (CF)

Subs:
Taleblou
Aghili
Ghorbani
K. Heydari
P. Nouri
H. Kazemi
M. Zare
M. Nouri
Hajsafi
Khalatbari
G. Rezaei
S. Akbarpour


The reason why I am using Montazeri and am putting Aghili on the bench is because Aghili is the same kind of a defender like Hosseini is. Very slow, zirtoopi and of course strong in the air.
Montazeri on the other hand is quite fast for a defender, knows how to build up (he is doing this all the time in Esteghlal) and he quite strong in the air as well.

Kaebi hasn't been great lately as well so having one of the best wingbacks in IPL on the bench isn't a bad idea IMO. Heydari is part of the best players in Esteghlal every week.

Pejman Nouri has been almost on a constant level for about 1.5 years for persepolis right now, he is quite strong physically and knows how to make a run on the field so he should be on the bench at least. He can play as a sub for Ashjari as well.

Hossein Kazemi has showed he is not a liability like a lot of ppl thought. He played quite solid and was one of our better players vs. SK so he definately deserves a 2nd call up.

M. Nouri and M. Zare have been with TM for quite a while now. I think they are like those players that are good, but that's it. They won't be players of whom you will say: "Age in bood, ma bazio mibordim". The reason is cuz there is a lot of competition on those two spots in the field. Because on DMF we have Nekounam, Kazemi, M. Zare, Rahmati and Andranik (when fit) and on the AMF spot we have Shojaei, Jabbari, Nouri, Zandi.

Ehsan Hajsafi is a young player who deserves all the respect he gets. This guy is barely 18 and is one of the best players in IPL. I think he is too young and inexperienced to play as a starter in TM, but he will definately be one in the next few years.

Khalatbari has showed himself in ZZ that he can be an icebreaker. If/When the time is right, when he is needed, he can be subbed in for Madanchi.

G. Rezaei has nothing else than speed. He is noway near a starting spot as one of our strikers in TM. He runs like a headless chicken and is inexperienced. Its nice that he has scored a few goals against 3rd and 4th rated Asian teams, but he hasn't showed anything yet. He should be used for his speed and not for his goalscoring skills, because he seriously lacks them. He can be used when the opponents defense is tired and our wings are tired as well. His explosive energy can be used very well.

S. Akbarpour has showed himself in Esteghlal on leaguelevel. He has showed himself as a deadly combination with Borhani, someone whose goalscoring skills aren't great either but his technique is good and with one pass he can open the defense. He must proove himself on international level as well.

Just my 2 cents.

[kaz]

Heydari > Kaabi, otherwise not bad.

[Kasra.]

Heydari > Kaabi, otherwise not bad.

I think Heydari is a bit inexperienced. He needs a few games to get in with the team, then he can be the best replacement for Kaebi, cuz he aint doing good.

[Doctor DOOM]

I'd appreciate it if we could finish the saudi analysis and information first, before we try line ups and ....

thanks

( but since I saw shojaei as "supporting striker", a question comes to mind: shouldnt a supporting striker be someone who regularly or at least moderately SCORES GOALS ? when was shojaei's last goal?
khalatbari would suit this role better . especially if we're feeling SUICIDAL and want to persist with the FAILED single striker formation in a game that we NEED to win!!!!!!
anyway, we all can get back to TM after digging enough about ksa )


===========================

I'd add another note to the saudi game. I'd say as an arab nation, they are quite familiar with the peripheral aspects of a game, especially when it comes to playing Iran. Thankfully they will not be the hosts, but that doesnt mean they wouldnt try any hanky-panky especially since it is a do or die situation for them.

I expect some psychological shinanigans before and during the game from their players.
Therefore using younger or less established players as daei's desperately trying to do, may actually backfire for us. To counter any expected mind games from the saudis, we MUST have a well settled, mature and experienced team that knows how to handle such crap and shrug it off.

[Martin-Reza]

... etc etc etc. then we could sum it up and pass it on to Human.

Heydari > Kaabi, otherwise not bad.

Kaebi >>>> Heydari and Gholamnejad >>> Heydari. And then there is still Kia of course. Heydari will never play a minute in TM again, maybe with the B team in some WAFF or LG tournament, but not in a competitive game, at least not if we arent's shook by heavy injury and suspension problems. The earlier you give up this theory the better .