The upcoming IRAN - SAUDI game

[Martin-Reza]

Amazingly noone gets what I say. The "defense" is only targeted at being allowed to critisize. As if that ever would be in question. Just DD's style is ridiculous.

Daei is slowly learning this and that is not a valid statement. Because when Daei is learning it, how could any of us know? As if we would have any football related knowledge he has not.

Yes, Daei is learning. But what he still has to learn is nothing we know. Cause if we knew, he'd know as well for sure.

"Width" is such a ridiculous example. Daei knows a million times more about width in a football team than DD will ever know. Yet the latter claims Daei has to learn sth in that department. He is also explaining what Daei has to learn.

I'd just like to know how DD can know something in specific Daei doesn't. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[Doctor DOOM]

1- DD's style is nothing like that.
DD starts with mentioning the problems he's noticed in a game and dissects them ( according to the way HE sees them ) and perhaps wonders why.

but DD's remarks are countered by this wall of "you're no coach so u wouldnt understand" & "daei knows better" as if he's omniscient or "played in europe" or .... etc etc etc.
generally they behave as if football is this humongously complex set of mathematical equeations that only a PhD can discus or dissect !!!!!!!!! so us, lesser mortals have to just "lay there & take whatever sh*t that's thrown in front of us" coz we havent played in europe or we arent the coach !!!!!

then DD wonders why the same ppl always come up with the same accusations no matter what the original issue.

and it escalates and ....

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2- secondly, DD came up with his "learning" remark as an answer to other snide remarks about coaching the team and whatnot.

and yet, using the term or not, it does NOT take away the fact that Mr. X insists on something that is wrong. nothing disastrous about it as everyone makes mistakes.
then Mr. X PERSISTS on it and digs his heel even more , INSPITE of game after game being shown how wrong the decision is.
( hence inviting criticism from some quarters )

so when after a long period of irrational persistence on a wrong idea, we see Mr. X finally turn around and correct his mistake, what do we say/think?


======================

3- I'm sure daei "knows" about width in a football team. ( God knows the guys has benefited the MOST from this width in his goal scoring career )

but my point has always been that he RARELY sees any use for it.
now, unlike many ppl I just dont throw out a sentence ( or accusation ) and hope that it sticks.
I BACK IT UP.

everytime I have talked about width, I have discussed what was seen, what was missing, what could have been done, who could help, whose style of football suits or doesnt, .... .


and yes, I still believe a team is MORE COMPLETE by adding Width.
if nothing else, it provides an additional dimension for its attacks and may make the team more successful in offense and scoring .... and god knows we havent been setting the wrold on fire with our offense or goal scoring

now, ppl have problem with this just becoz their idol is shown up and some guy talks about things that are missing in their idol's team.
how rude!
blasphemy!
fires of hell shall rain on u & ur children!!!




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and to answer our friend's query here:

I'd just like to know how DD can know something in specific Daei doesn't.

I'll have to say I WATCH our games. that's how.

I dont claim I know more than him. hell I dont claim I know more than YOU even.

but the difference between us is whatever lacks or missing ingredient I see in TM games, I bring it up.

even if the fires of hell may rain down on me and my descendants.

[BehzadB]

1
generally they behave as if football is this humongously complex set of mathematical equeations that only a PhD can discus or dissect !!!!!!!!! so us, lesser mortals have to just "lay there & take whatever sh*t that's thrown in front of us" coz we havent played in europe or we arent the coach !!!!!

na peyman jan. it's not that.. It's just the fact that we as fans are not as close to the situation on the ground, to put it simply..

coaches (good, average or bad ones), they are close to the situation. they know the players better, they themselves have been coached in their playing times, and (hopefully) they have been trained (as in classroom) to be a coach. We have not.

so, again, we have to take everything with a little grain of salt and be a fan, or in your case, a very observant fan.

but as I said earlier, even the best coaches in the world make bad decisions. at the same time, it is also true that a fan may not have made that "bad" decision, if he were the coach. does that mean the fan is qualified to coach or is he ahead of the coach in his learning or knowledge? of course not.

as you said yourself, one standing on the outside might see something that the one on the inside doesn't.. that is certainly true.. however, the opposite is also true. in fact, more true than the first scenario. I think that sometimes, with the level of emotions and dedication that you put into this, you go way too far into details of certain situation.. and that's what I THINK, MR is referring to.

[Doctor DOOM]

oh, absolutely, behzad.

I totally understand ppl closer to a situation may see things that may not reveal themselves to the outside.

that's why I let go of a lot of other issues and give the benefit of the doubt or allow time to show it clearer or ... .


but at the same time, I talk about matters that occur more frequently or have persisted long enough to make them an issue.

for example, take zareh's or sadeghi's cases. as I said and always say, none of us are in the TM camp and training, so we cant know how these guys do in training. and it would be presumptuous of me if I did.

BUT what I base my comments are on what I SEE in the games ( I've repeated this many times over in those threads).
for all I know zareh or sadeghi used to play like zidane's twin or pele's grandfather. good for them, but I dont care.

what I see is a player who falls short on countless occasions in the REAL GAMES and OFFICIAL MATCHES ... which happen to matter.
hence the criticism.

I understand if daei sees them perform wonders in training. But at the same time, I expect him to lay MUCH MORE in store of what they do in PROPER MATCHES. .... far more than whatever wonderous things they do in training sessions.
if the player's a 100 in training, but turns to 6 in the games, I expect the coach to remove him and try someone else coz obviously the player has big transitional problems from a relaxed camp atmosphere to big-time matches.

-----------

now, to "what" we SEE in games:
surely we cant say a "turn-over" seen on TV , is actually a "good pass" if you're closer to the pitch.
or the same thing about a failed marking.
or a poor cover. or a bad pass. or .... etc.

correct?

[BehzadB]

oh, absolutely, behzad.

I totally understand ppl closer to a situation may see things that may not reveal themselves to the outside.

that's why I let go of a lot of other issues and give the benefit of the doubt or allow time to show it clearer or ... .


but at the same time, I talk about matters that occur more frequently or have persisted long enough to make them an issue.

for example, take zareh's or sadeghi's cases. as I said and always say, none of us are in the TM camp and training, so we cant know how these guys do in training. and it would be presumptuous of me if I did.

BUT what I base my comments are on what I SEE in the games ( I've repeated this many times over in those threads).

I understand where you coming from. I used to complain about Branko and his decision to use Daie in every possible game.. and I wasn't the only one saying it.. even coachs and 'experts' were complaining about that..

GN stuck with Khatibi in AC games! there is not one reason I can think of, as to why GN believed in this guy so much.... and many people, including some experts, were saying the same thing.. it wasn't only me, a fan, saying it.

Heshmat mohajerani used to be in love with ghafour jahani, even though everyone was against it.. some of the old timers remember the famous quote from Manook Khodabakhshian who during a live broad cast said: "sefro ba sefr avaz mik0neh"; when Heshmat khan subbed Faraki for Ghafour jahani..

that's nothing new, peyman jan..

the way I see it, coaches, like business managers, sometimes make a decision based on their own gut feeling.. there really isn't science in this..

[Doctor DOOM]

^ amma che goli zad ghafour ..... ba zanoosh - haaaa !! I doubt he knew where the ball was or how he touched it
LOL

I remember that infamous " Sefr be jaye sefr" comment.
aaaahh .. kojayee ke yaadet be-kheir.

anyway, I agree with you completely.
we still suffer from coaches insisting on absolute ZEROS ... opps I mean Zarehs!

but seriously, just becoz we have had some coaches who insist on zeros, it doe NOT justify carrying on the crummy tradition and make excuses for further lapses in judgment.
especially when we have players FAR superior to such average fellows.

[zzgloo]

Amazingly noone gets what I say.

I think I do, Martin Jaan
Although, your exchanges with Payman, always comes with ambivalance..as both of you seem to be intrigued by each other's posts...and love & respect each other......
If I have to say one thing against payman, ( Which will be my first in long long time, as he , just like you , is very special in this forum )...is the extra degree of certainty he explains things with...
Payman, always talks as if he is a representative of 2000 people or so !!!
Yet, I have not senced any arrogance in him, nor in you !!!
I am glad we have both of you with us !

[Doctor DOOM]

wha .... when .... who .... wha ....

when did I ever claim I "represent 2000 ppl" ?
in fact arent I always saying "WHAT I SEE" ( as opposed to "what my flock/disciples see") ????
and I'm pretty sure a turn-over seen on my TV IS THE SAME turn-over in anyone else's TV or in the stadium or ...



- and yes, I talk with certainty , simply becoz I believe MY EYES and not some notion of "what may occur in some unseen place or ..."
hence my reference to TM-camp vs MATCH differences in previous posts.


- as for those times that I bring up general populace's opinion, well, that IS the general populace's opinion and thoughts and words. and that's REFLECTING , rather than representing.
take for an example, haydari's recent form. if I say he's in top form, does that mean I'm speaking for 2000 ppl, or am I REFLECTING the views of 2000 ppl ? there IS a slight difference here.

for another example, our left back ( zareh ) WAS a serious problem that needed attention, sadeghi WAS performing below national team levels, ...
or a bit more recent, SKorea DID show they crank it up near the end and are dangerous ( their 2 goals against saudi IN saudi near the end of the game ), or HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ( for years and decades now ) strong on flanks , or ... etc.

it's NOT somehting that I "cook up" and try to give it gloss by passing it as "2000 of us believe that ... ".

these issues are there for EVERYONE to note and most of them have been brought up BEFORE GAMES or THE EVENTS, so noone can say they're in "hindsight" either.



I'm somewhat shocked how my posts are perceived.

[Doctor DOOM]

Apparently daei has announced ( god only know how much of it is true, or if true, whether he'd keep his words ) that he will use Karimi for at least TWO of the final 3 games.
Not a bad idea, I must admit.
I'd have liked to have karimi against the comparatively slower saudis than either of quick-footed koreans, coz he'd be able to do his shtick much better.
oh well ....

depending on which 2 he's talking about though.

It really doesnt make sense to drag the guy to NKorea, then back to tehran in 3 days and face UAE.
so if it is NKorea-UAE , I dont think it'd be a good idea.
but if it is either of :
1- NKorea ---- stays put in east asia ( perhaps SKorea ) --- and play the SKorea game after 9 days.
or
2- Keep him back in tehran for Nkorea and use him against UAE and then to SKorea ( as there's about 6-7 days gap here )

[zzgloo]

I stronlg believe..this game will be a plat-form for Ali Daei....
We will win tommorow, and eventualy go to WC with Daei, although limping....games with N & S Koreas will not matter as much....
But after tommrow's win....He will be set , for next 5 years or more, with TM.

[Martin-Reza]

I think I do, Martin Jaan
Although, your exchanges with Payman, always comes with ambivalance..as both of you seem to be intrigued by each other's posts...and love & respect each other......
If I have to say one thing against payman, ( Which will be my first in long long time, as he , just like you , is very special in this forum )...is the extra degree of certainty he explains things with...
Payman, always talks as if he is a representative of 2000 people or so !!!
Yet, I have not senced any arrogance in him, nor in you !!!
I am glad we have both of you with us !

lol

I would find DD's words very much appropriate if he'd be a coach. But he isn't, and that is my problem. If I'm not a coach with vast experience, I won't go into such deep analysis and correction of real coaches.

[Martin-Reza]

Here an interesting post from a Saudi fan in bigsoccer forums. Seems they are just waiting for us to come forward and give them space to counter.

Ok, this is my idea about whats gonna happen in this game. Watched many games for our NT, and I have predicted rather close recently what will happen and it happened so lets see if this one is close. We are in a bad condition everyone knows this, missing our 2 starting forwards and our usual substitute Saed AlHarthi. Plus this we are missing our regular Khaled Aziz DMF, and our usual substitute and before starter Saud Kariri DMF. Above that we are now missing our center defender who has started since the beginning of the year with the NT. Now thats only the players we are missing.

We are also playing with a new coach, only played one game before, and tied against Iraq B at home 0-0.

Above that, our captain has been caught in a rather unpleasant condition, and has caused a cultural shock in Saudi Arabia 4 days before this big game, so this has big affect on our team, and I'm rather serious and not exaggerating.

So obviously we are in a bad condition, but thankfully we are playing away. Thankfully? Yep nowadays playing at home hurts you more than playing away. Playing away no one demands you attack, or to control the game. Our NT has sucked at controlling the game and attacking against a parked bus in the defense. And we have very good recent examples against Iran and SK and it was catastrophic. Now you must bring up NK away, but come on its NK, a team weaker than us, even if we defend against them the entire game away its embaressing for us, therefore this causes us to try to attack and control the game, which ended up bad for us too. But whenever we stay back, depend on our quick attack and midfield shorts passes, we rip apart the team in front of us. Asian Cup 2007 is a good example, do you think we were really a perfect squad with amazing players? Nope it was only our good tactic, and we almost won until we faced a team that we had to attack and control the game, which of course failed miserably, and we couldn't do neither.

Now if we do that against Iran do you think anyone will care? Nope thats what we are going to do, and with big players like Tukar and Hussien Abdulghani vast experience, they can handle the pressure and lead the team to victory. With the amazing Mohamed Nour in the midfield + the other players, and attacking on counters with vast space in the Iranian defense because they want to win, they want to avenge the 3 times we kicked them out of the World Cup, they want to beat us in front of their 100,000 fans, they want to beat us because they look at us as their enemies and rivals, trust me they will be attacking but still they will stay back "acting" smart. But if the game continues as 0-0 more pressure will be put on Iran, since a draw doesn't really helps us but doesnt finishes us off either, and we are a sitting duck for Iran. Thats when counters will be deadly, and inshallah we will finish it off. What makes me think that this style of game might happen is the coaches statements, Peseiro has been calm and confident, while Daie is excited and wants to avenge. But in the end this is just a guess and might fail miserable and we could lose 3-0.

Good luck to Saudi Arabia, this is a big game, and both sides know it. I'm sure Iranians are pissing their pants now when they think of this game, but no worries everyone has butterflies in their stomach. If we win, then inshallah 2010 here we come. But if Iran wins, then good luck to Iran.

[Martin-Reza]

Here also a copy of my post from the main forum about Saudi's injury status:

Saudi will miss a couple of key players tomorrow (actually today already).

I hope noone thinks they will be a pushover without them, but here the list of missing players:

Yasser Al Qahtani: Captain and top striker, suspended
Malek Mouath: Second fixed starter upfront normally, injured
Saad Al Harthi: Third-choice striker and scorer of the goal against Iran in Riyadh, injured
Abdullah Shuhail: Quality rightback, assisted the goal in the first leg, injured
Majed Al Marshedi: Top central defender and fixed starter, injured
Khaled Aziz: The number one DM, the Saudi "Makelele", injured
Saud Khariri: The backup for Khaled Aziz will also be missing, injured

So in attack, defense and DM they have lost important personell. For the latter two they still good replacements, in attack they will rely on youngster Hazzazi.

[Nokhodi]

My heart is hurting already.

[Doctor DOOM]

well, if it is true that they are missing this amount of regular starters, especially in the middle, and strikers, then that makes them vulnerable to our midfilders.

not twisting it as if they're a walk over, but we cant ignore that they havent been firing on all cylinders lately.

all I can tell our lads is CARPE DIEM. cease the day and take your chances. as they say "Luck favors the brave".

a win in this game will relieve a tremendous amount of pressure from our shoulders and will be an immeasurable boost for us going into the final 3 game nightmare.


============

a second string midfield for saudis gives us the chance to take control of the middle of the pitch and direct the pace of the game.
this is why I said a proper playmaker would be absolutely essential to make use of this control.
coz we may be able to control the midfield, but if we dont take it to the next step of CREATING opportunities, all we'd be left with is stalemate in the middle with us banging at the door!

we NEED someone who will exploit this control and push it further.

who do we have in the squad to do this job?