The Bagheri conundrum

[Doctor DOOM]

.. yes, it IS a conundrum and there seems to be no escape from this for Daei, TM and Iran even!

Some say Bagheri was brought in in an attempt to sooth the fan's tensions over the Karimi issue. Some say Bagheri's friendship to Daei was critical to his call up. Some say his performances in early season were even justification for his inclusion. Whatever the reasons may be, at this moment, it is almost general consensus that Bagheri isnt what we expected him to be at TM and on most occasions he is a burden on the team more than anything else!

Apart from a goal in UAE, he hasnt done anything worthy of mention at TM and by taking the spot for a true playmaker, the team has been denied of more efficiency in its attacks.

With the possible return of Karimi, who is a far more capable and useful player than Bagheri, Daei faces even a bigger dilemma. What is he to do with the under-performing Bagheri?
How will he manage him? Will he bench him in favor of karimi?
How will you tell a friend, who until a while ago had retired from international football and only at your behest and request he changed his mind, to sit it out & go back home now? ( you'll look like a bloody confused bum! )
Will you bench him, given his stature in our football?
What will you do?

The ideal scenario is for Bagheri, himself, to broach the topic and retire from TM ... understanding the coach's dilemma and the good of TM. But that means he has to admit he hasnt been performing well. does he? will he?

What would Daei do? Will he put the good of Iran before anyone else's and "bite the bullet" ?
I dont know any of the above answers. But I know one thing; I wouldnt want to be in his shoes when the time comes for him to decide.

This is a bed the inexperienced Daei made for himself, with little foresight. And this is the bed he has to lie in it.

[Martin-Reza]

I don't think Karimi's possible return is a problem with Bagheri. I guess since neither Bagheri nor Karimi are 90 minutes players anymore, they will probably "share" the OM position. Bagheri on for Karimi or the other way round might be a fixed substitution after 60 mins soon.

However, that is from Daei's position, wether Bagheri or Karimi should even be in TM is another issue...

[Doctor DOOM]

^ you are correct in saying one way out for daei is to sub Karim for Karimi ( as simple as dropping an "i"? easier said than done ) near the end of games where we're ahead or need some extra muscle in the middle.

But I'm not too sure if it will be done correctly. what happens if karimi's presence is needed for more than 70-80 minutes ( or more )? will daei bench karim for 80+ minutes ( to full game ) ? or will daei take out Karimi prematurely, before the right time , just to give Karim a decent amount of time on the pitch?
afterall the presence of a playmaker is of utmost importance ( unless we're leading a team by 2-3 goals by min 70-75 ... which is highly improbable given our team and opponents ). what then?

would he try to please the big fellows by playing BOTH?
a disastrous move, if you ask me.


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I'm not bothered about the "name" ( be it karim, karimi, X or Y ). the team DESPERATELY needs a playmaker to make things happen up front. we may not concede or lose games, but unless we actually play TO WIN and SCORE GOALS, we're heading nowhere but down!

since navidkia has taken the title of "zein-al-abedeen-e beemaar" and mobaali's on international terrorist list, we're left with only Karimi & Jabbari as the only classy playmakers. ( the rest are not in this league ). now, we dont "like" karimi to be there is one thing. but we better have a sound alternative for the post.

Daei, time to swallow ur pride and put TM ahead.

[maij]

I don't think that Bagheri and particularly Karimi should be in Team Melli. The former due to performance (Stamina) , the latter due to performance and attitude. Anyone who thinks otherwise , is not facing reality. Simply I can’t believe that Team Melli is in dire need of either of them , and what is going on such selections is nothing more than the good old Irooni Bazi !! And it is this Irooni bazi is the real problem of Team Mealli and Iran’s football.

Daei , despite his public stance declaring the selection of Team Melli players are based on merit, form and performance , has succumbs to public and private pressure to select players who are not entirely in this bracket. Some selections are due to some other factors only known to Daei and his inner circles.

In a country where every Tom , Dick and Harry has a self conviction that he is Fabio Capello and even the akhonds in Majlis take upon themselves to meddle in Team Melli affairs , it is next to impossible to expect any systematic progress and organization in this football.

This evening NAVAD program, was a classic and typical reflection of status of football in Iran. You really need to watch this edition (2nd March 2009) to witness the pathetic circus that is referred to as football in Iran. It is nothing more than a big circus, you laugh one minute and then shed tears minutes later feeling sorry for this football.
I feel sorry for the fans that have real aspirations and think that Iran’s football can reach its “IMAGINARY POTENTIAL” and expect European standards , code of ethics and organization in Iran !!! …….. It is simply a dream….unrealistic and bridge too far….

When every damn coach is blaming the referee for his loss, players woe those penalties that were not called, chairmen who fault the earth and the sky for their failures, and no one offers alternative solutions….just blame culture. What do you really expect from such system ? At the end , does it matter if Karimi or Bagheri is in Team Melli or Daei is playing politics?

Inclusion of Karimi or Bagheri and whether it is justified or not is just a drop in the ocean in the midst of the cultural crisis that is facing this football.

[Doctor DOOM]

We may not be in dire need of "karimi". but we ARE in dire need of a proper playmaker in the team.
I dont think anyone would disagree with this.

so as I've said ... oh, I dont know, about 74861543 times only .... that the team needs the role of a PLAYMAKER . the name is secondary. Whoever that can provide the requisite tasks with quality is ok in my books.
now, it's not Karimi? fine. then being X or Y who CAN deliver that quality.

on the other hand, we have PLENTY of players who can do what bagheri does, .. some even better.
so he seems the more dispensable one of the two.


and secondly, it is not the PERSON, karim bagheri, that we want out (the guy deserves our respect and love).
But it is the use of a pivotal and almost the most important spot in the team on a player ( whoever he may be ) that does NOT satisfy the tasks and requirements of that spot.
names dont matter. it is the tasks & roles that do.

[maij]

Sometimes I feel like I am living in another planet !!!

[Doctor DOOM]

^ ... which means ... ?

[zzgloo]

IMHO;

1-Those whose football years have gone by :........ Bagheri & Kia

2-Those whose Football years may be gone, but we still we could use them on some particular cases :.......... Karimi & Hashemian & Rahman & Zandi

3-Those who we need but are not being used.........Madanchi & Khalili

4- Those we are useing, but we should n't ...........Daei

[Doctor DOOM]

I think bagheri's performance these days shd point to a natural elimination from TM's starting line up ( at least ).

[Kasra.]

IMHO;

1-Those whose football years have gone by :........ Bagheri & Kia

2-Those whose Football years may be gone, but we still we could use them on some particular cases :.......... Karimi & Hashemian & Rahman & Zandi

3-Those who we need but are not being used.........Madanchi & Khalili

4- Those we are useing, but we should n't ...........Daei

I disagree. Switch Kia and Hashemian. Add Rahman to the first point. Khalili should not be used yet. It's too soon. Let him show himself in PP first, then we can talk about TM.

On the 4th point, I'm completely with you.

[Martin-Reza]

DD, you always demand a playmaker. What's a playmaker to you? An OM or deep lying striker, someone with almost solely offensive duties, being there to cut the defense with sharp passes, someone who scores and assists a lot, OR rather someone playing more deep in the midfield, distributing the ball and organizing the midfield, but also with much more defensive duties then?

[zzgloo]

Play-Maker , I understand may mean different things , as it has a different meaning in here, that is USA !

It appears,DD e aziz, mean it as : Some one who creates chances for others !

But,In USA , It means as : some one who, makes plays !,some one whom the team can always count on, and when has the ball makes things happen on his own.

Anyway...we need a play maker,with any meaning .!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doctor DOOM]

DD, you always demand a playmaker. What's a playmaker to you? An OM or deep lying striker, someone with almost solely offensive duties, being there to cut the defense with sharp passes, someone who scores and assists a lot, OR rather someone playing more deep in the midfield, distributing the ball and organizing the midfield, but also with much more defensive duties then?

good question to distinguish between the two styles of players.

to ME, a playmaker is the one who controls the pace of the game, distributes the ball well & decides where the ball shd be and most importantly, with great vision and passing, consistently creates opportunities for players AHEAD ( and sometimes, BESIDES , on the flanks ). sees runs before they happen. sees spaces that other players hardly see.
Yes, he has more uses in our forward and attacking tactics than defensive moves. is it imperative that he scores goals regularly? I dont think so. that's just a bonus.
for examples, zidane, xavi, ... in int'l football and our own navidkia, jabbari, mobaali, karimi , shojaei , nouri, kolahkaj, ( I had hopes for Pouladi , but ...!!!) ... etc

An attacking mid, however, is more like a mid who can be a pseudo-striker ( or auxillary forward ) or plays behind the single or duo of strikers. he shd be able to score goals regularly. he's usually an opportunist who pops up unexpectedly ( to opponent defenders ) among the forward line. that's why I put khalatbari or Rajabzadeh as OM but not a playmaker.
Dino Baggio or lampard are great examples for an OM.

we're just lucky that a player like Karimi has BOTH such abilities. he directs the traffic & creates opportunities up front ... but also has a good goal scoring record. ( that's why I'd say with his inclusion, we gain almost 2 players in one body)


that's MY assessment of the two roles, and how I've distinguished them as.
to break it down in few words; one passes great and directs the moves of a team. the other scores well and is an opportunist from the deep.


if you ask me, altho' they BOTH occupy the same slot in a team, I'd say a playmaker is an ESSENTIAL ingredient in any team who wants to win games. but an OM is not as essential, as the team can have 2 forwards which makes up for firepower and goal scoring options.
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now, BOTH OM or the playmaker are expected to chip in in defending as well. just like the rest of the team. But I dont see "defensive capabilities" over-riding any of the above characteristics coz they are more used in the team's forward movements.
for that, we have defensive mids who can be their "complementing pair" in the middle. much like makelele was for zidane. gattuso for pirlo. essien for lampard. or .... etc.
or for closer to home examples, what nekunam/ando/kazemi/zareh/.. can be for the guys mentioned above.


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Getting back to the topic at hand, Bagheri used to be a fantastic OM. even nowadays he has his moments here and there. but he never was a playmaker.

[Doctor DOOM]

Play-Maker , I understand may mean different things , as it has a different meaning in here, that is USA !
It appears,DD e aziz, mean it as : Some one who creates chances for others !
But,In USA , It means as : some one who, makes plays !,some one whom the team can always count on, and when has the ball makes things happen on his own.
Anyway...we need a play maker,with any meaning .!!!!!!!!!!!

that is a playmaker, no matter where we come from.

the player ought to HAVE THE BALL.
... which means the initiative is in OUR hands
... which means ( in normal cases ) WE are the attacking team
... which means the general movement of the team is FORWARD looking
... which means exactly the same definition as in football or many other sports.

coz when the ball is NOT in our possession, we CAN NOT control the pace or moves or ... of the game. we'll be REACTING and RESISTING the flow of the game. that's when DEFENSIVE postures and tactics kick in .


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the only instance where the team uses a playmaker without much forward moves is in "possession football" where a team just runs down the clock .. INTELLIGENTLY, by keeping possession of the ball and directing it to various directions and flanks to maintain it.

I said intelligently, coz there are teams that think just kicking the ball away will do the trick! it doesnt. coz in a matter of 1 second or maximum 2 seconds, the ball's back in their half and pressure on their defense and box is resumed!

[zzgloo]

that is a playmaker, no matter where we come from.
the player ought to HAVE THE BALL.
... which means the initiative is in OUR hands
... which means ( in normal cases ) WE are the attacking team
... which means the general movement of the team is FORWARD looking
... which means exactly the same definition as in football or many other sports.
coz when the ball is NOT in our possession, we CAN NOT control the pace or moves or ... of the game. we'll be REACTING and RESISTING the flow of the game. that's when DEFENSIVE postures and tactics kick in .
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!

payman Jaan...generaly we both are saying the same thing....with a little twist !!
I just think,in the NFL,the playmaker,is more of a finisher !,as in our football, he could be doing anything,as far as he does it well.
playmaker in the NFL is involved in " The BIG PLAY "....which is a concept we may not have ,in our football !...or atleast not in the Iranian football !!
God Bless.