how to play against a 4-4-2 system?

[ardi11]

[Martin-Reza]

Ah Afareen. A real classic 4-4-2 (also called square) for once. Dr. Doom, please take a good look .

[Martin-Reza]

As for weaknesses, the main weakness is the absence of a central offensive playmaker. The team playing this system might be tempted to push one of the two CMs more forward to fill this gap, allowing more holes in the crucial area between the centerbacks and the central midfield.

The other team could take advantage of this. Otherwise, there aren't tactical weakpoints in my opinion.

[Doctor DOOM]

^
.....aaaaaaand having taken a good look, I am still puzzled by ur request.


does this validate the use of 2 def mids?
No.

is one of those two central mids more inclined defensively, while the other, offensively?
HELL YES.
and what does that make things?
1 def mid
1 offensive mid/playmaker
2 right & left mids
2 strikers
which is what I've been talking about for years now.

so exactly what am I supposed to "look at" ?????



========================

now, back to the topic and to answer our friend here:

ANY formation has its strengths and weaknesses.
there is NO formation that is fool-proof or perfect.
that's why you see all sorts of formations being used all over the world and more coaches come up with newer ones.
that shd answer ur query.


But what is MORE important than the set of numbers written on the board ( in all sorts of combinations and permutations ) is THE TYPE OF MATERIAL YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH.

to bring it home:
if you dont have a strong, physical center forward who scores regularly, it makes absolutely no point playing with a single forward line up.
no matter how "modern" that line up may be.

or

if you have a set of players who play at their best when in an "out-dated" (!!!) 3-5-2, it makes little sense to try to "look modern" by forcing them to play a different formation at the cost of their efficiency.

so in countries where player development has been deficient ( like ours ) and players go through ranks with little professionalism or correct development, it makes it hard to force them to adapt to different tactics, formations, philosophies.
in most european footballing nations, players are reared in the right way that makes them recipient to various tactics, formations, .... . so it would be easier to pick ur formation and then select ur players based on that.

in Iran, it shd be the other way.
first pick your best players and then you shd see what formation or tactics you can extract the most of, given these players.
the hazards of deficient football structure !!!

[yashar_fasihnia]

a team that plays 4-4-2 and uses 2 DMs in the middle is a team that usually is dangerous from the 2 sides and has more creativity there, as seen in this example with ribery and schweinsteiger.

so for defense, your 2 full backs have to be very alert in defense and probably cant participate in offense as much as they usually can.
ur 2 CBs have to be careful of crosses, usually high crosses on the second post, and low ground crosses on the first post but, due to the absence of a pure AM like in the case of 4-4-2 diamond, the number of opponent players waiting for the cross is usually less in number and hence, its quite difficult for them to score in the air. the liberal DM has to run all the way up to join in attack which isnt always possible.

also, there is a very high chance the 2 outer midfielders will be moving along the line and cutting into the penalty area at any moment either with speed or dribbling skills or both and either take shots themselves or pass it to their team mates in the penalty area(usually one of the strikers on the first post) or around the penalty area for taking the final shot(usually the more liberal DM who is allowed to join in attack)

at the worldclass level, when one midfielder has the ball on this side (say ribery) and is breaking into the 1/3rd of the opponent, schweinsteiger usually tries to add as a 3rd supporting striker into the penalty area usually on post 2 as well, but because such midfielders are typically not big players, the dangers on aerial ball is less. the crosses have to be very accurate and the positioning of the striker on the second post has to be very well defined between the 2 defenders to be able to score with his head and at such a high level, defenders and GKs make very little mistake in marking and clearing the balls.

short through passes to break the offside trap is also less likely because in general, the 2 DMs are a bit further down and the passes can be intercepted by most defenders because of the more distance the ball has to travel from midfield to reach the striker now upfront. so u wont have to worry about offside trap too much. however, this also depends on the type of strikers the opponent has. if u have big strikers like bayern do with klose and toni or inter do with adriano and zlatan, then no, offside trap is less likely to work unless they try to break the offside trap with their quick midfielders like ribery/ze roberto.

however, it is highly possible that one of the two strikers pulls back and combines with either the more liberal and advancing DM (in this example ze roberto) or one of the 2 side midfielders but that leaves only 1 striker upfront and hence the defenders have to start marking the side midfielders who will now be combining with the 2nd striker to move forward. in such cases, the CB and the full backs mix up in markings because the opponents midfielders and striker are changing positions with each other and often leads to errors.

a classical example was the goal UAE scored against us some time back.
ghorbani, nekounam, ashjari and hosseini all got mixed up because of the DM who played a short combo with mattar and ended up scoring himself.

so i think, the most danger comes through low ground passes, on post 1 or just along the penalty area, or sudden cutting inside of the side midfielders and making a havoc in the penalty area.

aerial balls and through passes to break the offside trap are less dangerous.

but u will have to worry about the more liberal DM who sometimes comes all the way upto the penalty area and takes shots on the rebound.

but in general, i think the most danger in such a formation as above comes through the 2 outer midfielders and the key to the game is to keep the 2 of them neutralized.

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to attack them,
one tactic used is straight long balls. this is because with 2 DMs in their midfield waiting to intercept ur midfielders passes and breaking ur offensive build ups, an easy way to get rid of them is high balls from ur defenders to ur attackers. but for this to happen, u have to make sure ur attackers aer aerially able to win tackles and maintain possession that way with the help of ur midfielders otherwise its no use cos their defenders will clear all the balls away and their 2 DMs will even collect most of the loose balls.

another way is for ur midfield to outdo their midfield. if u have 4 amazing midfielders who can do that, great, otherwise u might wanna consider playing with 5 or 4 midfielders and a very supporting striker like akbarpour who has great stamina and helps his midfield as well or in bayerns case, klose. this will require again quick passing combinations to not allow their defenders and 2 DMs to intercept ur passes and usually tackle for a foul cos by the time they tackle a player, he has already passed the ball to the next player and u win a foul a lil behind the penalty area. if u have good freekick takers, it can be useful as well.

or u can catch them in counter attacks, and if this is ur plan, to play a counter attacking game against them, their sides are usually the most vulnerable because their side midfielders are heavily active in offensive movements and often, the fullbacks behind them have to help the 2 side midfielders in overlap movements and passing combos to create danger and that leaves some good space on the 2 sides. ofcourse if ur not quick enough to do this, thats where the benefit of the 2 DMs comes in for the opponent, so the one of the DMs can drift to the sides to cover up for the void left by the midfielder & fullback, but then u have only 1 DM to beat in the middle of the field and can by a quick pass into the middle or even on the other side of the field and beat the DMs

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but these are all only some general vague discussions which have no real meaning unless u take into account, the actual players u have at ur disposal, and the opponent has at his disposal and the strenghts and weaknesses of these players.

for example, when ur playing against bayern, u know bayern's offensive moves is trhough ribery on the left sometimes with the help of lahm from behind, ze roberto from the side or klose from the front and either cross for toni on the second post or make a short pass for klose to tap it in or create havoc in penalty area and somehow win a penalty or take a shot from an angle.

u also know schweinsteiger doesnt have such abilities like ribery, he is more of a cutting in and shooting at goal, and along with oddo, the 2 most involve in crossing than actually trying to create havoc in the penalty area.
ribery on the other hand doesnt cross much and in general is a dribbling player with poor shooting abilities.
so u might instruct ur players to not allow schweinsteiger any freespace at all cos he has dangerous shots on him and hardly enters the penalty area, so always press him and if necessary even tackle him, since bayern doesnt even have good freekick takers. so instruct all 11 players, that whoever is closest to him just make sure he doesnt take a shot on goal.
ribery on the other side is less likely to shoot, so its better ur defenders dont jump at him as soon as he has the ball cos with a swift movement he can win a penalty or just dribble past ur defender. so u might instead ask 2 defenders or one defender and a midfielder to approach him and outnumber him to force him to either pass the ball to someone less dangerous or just try to dribble between both ur players and less likely to succeed.

one of a players major quality is anticipation, especialyl defenders or GKs when the opponent is approaching. to be able to read the movements of the opponent and their game is very difficult and thats wat usually seperates defenders from each other, because the better u anticipate the opponents movements, the better and more accurate ur tackle.

by letting ur GK and defenders to know for example to give a high chance of a cross will be delivered if the ball reaches to oddo or lahm, the GK will have a clue of whether to get ready for a cross or not. the defenders will know whether to tightly mark toni/klose or to try and tackle lahm or oddo.

by watching the opponents tapes more and more, coaches learn more about the qualities of the opponent and although football is a game of moments which is driven by instincts and circumstances, there is also a pattern in which every player plays his game, and hence the issue of probability comes in. so the probability of a cross coming from oddo or lahm is much higher than ribery for example and hence, the GK will already be getting ready for making an exit if he feels the ball is going to end up with oddo and he is gonna cross it.

u also know that ze roberto is the more liberal DM of the 2 but he has poor shooting abilities unlike van bommel who never comes forward. ze roberto has dribbling and passing skills and together with lahm and ribery form almost all the threats of bayern.
so as the opponent, u might want to ask ur right side midfielder and fullback to be more alert in defense and not advance so much for offense, particularly if ur right side isnt as strong as bayern's left side. u might also play for some counter attacking programs from ur right side where lahm and ribery move forward a lot.
if ur team is bremen for example, for a simple counter attack plan, u might want to tell ur players to try to pass the ball to diego who should move to the right where lahm has left a void and then from there find hugo almeyda in the penalty area for example.

however, oddo is so slow and weak that inspite of lahm advancing much more than oddo, lahm still manages to cover his side better than oddo. so actually waiting for oddo to move forward once in a while and trying a counter from that side has a higher rate of success.
for this example, i recommend u watching the bayern bremen game first leg which bremen won 5-1 and see how they kept exploiting bayerns right side.

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so in general, at higher international levels, a lot of such tactics are preplanned, thought to the players and practiced before the game. ofcourse, its not totally controlled and players themselves have a brain and often make other decisions based on circumstances, but wat im trying to say is it doesnt make much sense if u just ask, how do u deal with a 4-4-2 formation?

im no expert and wat i have said about is based on wat i have read and observed over the past 10 years or so, so consider these just opinions of one fan but hey, atleast u got something to think over for urself and hopefully that will give u a start into coming up with ur own ideas and observations

[Doctor DOOM]

a team that plays 4-4-2 and uses 2 DMs in the middle is a team that


....combines with either the more liberal and advancing DM (in this example ze roberto) ....



u also know that ze roberto is the more liberal DM of the 2 but he has poor shooting abilities unlike van bommel who never comes forward. ze roberto has dribbling and passing skills and together with lahm and ribery form almost all the threats of bayern.

I just highlighted a few segments that refers to the "other" supposed "def-mid". putting them all together we reach ... ummm... something else (and a different TERM ) that is mentioned somewhere in this thread.

hmmm .... I wonder what it could be ......

[yashar_fasihnia]

i dont know if u were pointing that at me peyman cos i clearly think we have good play makers and our team lacks creativity and needs good play makers but that doesnt mean playing with 2 DMs is a disaster. this is all repetition.

however, in bayerns case, let me just say that bayern is lucky they have ze roberto who is technically skilled but at the same time, has the ability to play as a holding midfielder as well and not all holding midfielders are like that. so its a bonus and helps reduce the load off ribery and schweinsteiger but it doesnt mean that if ze roberto wasnt there, bayern would be playing a different formation.
infact, at times, its borowski who plays that role due to absence of one of the midfielders and borowski is a totally phsyical giant with not much play making attributes or dribblign skills.
but it still works and coaches use them cos like i said, when u have 2 DMs, the main threat has to come from the 2 sides and they are the actual play makers of the team with the assistance of their fullbacks

[Martin-Reza]

Exactly yashar jan. That one of the DMs is more offensive must not be confused with having an OM. Thinking of putting players like Khalatbari, Shojaei or Karimi in such a position is not making much sense.

[Doctor DOOM]

however, in bayerns case, let me just say that bayern is lucky they have ze roberto who is technically skilled but at the same time, has the ability to ....

based on the above, this is an exception that bayern has a def-mid who's a good offensive mid also.
therefore, we cannot use an exception to prove a rule.

as for martin's comment, yes there is nothing wrong with using 2 def mids ... if we want to keep the score or are playing much stronger teams.
but which one of you two want to say we are in such a situation in the qualifiers ?

[Martin-Reza]

^ No, wrong. This system does not work with only one DM and an OM. The variant with 2 DMs (or 2 CMs) is not only for keeping results.

It's like claiming playing a fourback with 2 centerbacks is only for keeping results and one should normally do.

If you want a more offensive system, chose a 4-1-3-2, or a 1-1-8, if you think that would improve our chances

But the serious system against teams who are not pushovers include either 2 DMs or 1 DM paired with one or more CMs to cover the space in center.

4-4-2 diamond and 4-3-3 for example trade the second DM for 2 half-CMs. Both sacrifice the existance of true side midfielders for the presence of either an OM (diamond) or a third striker, but don't leave one DM alone in order not to expose the team to the opponent.

Of course, as said, in the classic 4-4-2 usually one of the two central midfielders is slightly more offensive, but not compareabel to an OM. He has loads of defensive duties.

[Kasra.]

I think now Mayelikohan is appointed we should close down the F+ forum. The only tactics our new headcoach uses is Doaye komeyl, Agha emame zaman and of course Ya zahra. So I don't think discussions will be necessary

[Doctor DOOM]

Aha!
there is a difference between "DEFENSIVE mid" and "CENTRAL mid"

now, for ourselves we can cook up all sorts of terms to justify our claims ( ** ) , but each one of those terms refer to a different set of duties or to be more precise, priorities.

I dont want to go on about this.
we can choose to see ONLY what we want to. that's fine.
I'm not going to waste my time on this.
all I'll say is CENTRAL does not necessarily mean DEFENSIVE.
remember : different priorities

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(**) - if we soooo want to persist with our claims, we say X is like "defensive striker" ... or "offensive defender" LOL ... instead of saying simply a striker or a defender, when the guy merely helps in defending while he's a striker, or the other, helps in attacks while being a defender !!!

[yashar_fasihnia]

if we had noticed a bit more carefully and not only saw "wat we wanted to see", we would have realized that nekounam wasnt playing as a real DM but a more liberal DM or "Central Midfielder"
i thought its already assumed and trivial that when we played with both nekounam and kazemi in midfield, nekounam was give a more liberal role while kazemi stayed more behind (like van bommel in bayern, so nekounam wasnt a real DM when kazemi was playing next to him.

so u can call him watever u want, but when nekounam and kazemi were playing together, nekounam was given more freedom and moved forward more than usual while kazemi stayed back almost the entire game, like van bommel.

so, yes, u dont need to waste ur time on this anymore

[Doctor DOOM]

aha.
NOW, we're talking.

ok. lets see nekunam's.
HOW do you slot nekunam as ? I mean what kind of s category does he fit MOST* in?

a defensive mid?
a regular central mid?
an offensive mid?
a playmaker?

once you answer this and I hope it is based on his performances, then we can proceed
===========
* - I said "most" coz no matter if a player is defensive, offensive, this or that, he still has to defend as well as help in attack or tackle, pass, shoot, ... . no player in the midfield does ONLY ONE thing.

[yashar_fasihnia]

WE WERE ALWAYS TALKING! ATLEAST I WAS....

i would call nekounam a very capable and tactically able midfielder with good interception and defensivee skills and at the same time, some play making and offensive skills as well. a leader who can control the midfield of a team.

hence a player who can be used in more than one position as deemed necessary in the middle of the field (and not on the sides), a player quite similar to patrick viera.